Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast

Today’s conversation is with historian, author, and activist Dr. Jemar Tisby. Early in 2025 I decided to read more history. Call it curiosity or wanting more context to our current political moment, I started to devour books about the Civil War and eventually more books about the Civil Rights era. One of those books was The Color of Compromise: The Truth About the American Church’s Complicity in Racism. And to be honest, I was blown away by this book. Mainly because I had never learned this stuff growing up. I’d learned history…but I hadn’t learned this history. Why does this matter? I believe to my core that if we are unwilling to face and reckon with the darker parts of our history, we will continue to make the same mistakes. A quote that has been attributed to Mark Twain: History may not repeat itself but it does rhyme. We are living in an incredibly dangerous and polarizing political moment in America. And like Jemary Tisby says in our podcast…what happens in culture is downstream of what happens in the church. So we’re going to face some hard truths today. Reckon with some hard truths. And come out better on the other side. Jamar is a brilliant scholar and teacher. He’s bold yet gracious. And I’m excited to share this conversation with you today. As always, thank you for listening. This is David Santistevan and you can reach out to me at any time at david@beyondsundayworship.com Topics Covered: Jamar’s salvation story in the white evangelical church What the Mississippi Delta teaches us about American racism The church’s complicity in racism throughout history Doug Wilson and the spread of racist ideology The unique atrocity of American race-based, chattel slavery Why leftist, Marxist, DEI deflections are lazy and don’t make sense Racial bias in the Christian Music industry Resources Mentioned Jemar Tisby Substack The Color of Compromise: The Truth About The American Church’s Complicity in Racism by Jamar Tisby The Spirit of Justice: True Stories of Faith, Race, & Resistance by Jamar Tisby Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #370: The Truth About The American Church’s Complicity in Racism (And Where We Go From Here) with Jemar Tisby appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is returning to our roots at BSW – talking with a worship leader about worship. We’ve been talking to academics and historians – which we will continue to do – but sometimes it feels good to throw it back and have a good ole worship leader conversation. Lizzie Morgan is a gifted young worship leader who grew up in the church and has been singing her whole life. She auditioned for Lauren Daigle, sang with Lauren, and has since been a part of tours with Maverick City, Red Worship, and various other groups. I loved this conversation because of where it went. If you know me – I get a little bored with just talking about worship songwriting and worship records. Sorry, I just do…but this conversation went somewhere I didn’t anticipate – talki  ng about how different generations have viewed church and worship and what we can learn from that. What did previous generations do well? What regrets do they have? What previous generations have passed down…does the next generation even want it? We also talk about building setlist, flow, reimagining how we do worship, as well as Lizzie’s new record Not My Will. Topics Covered: Lizzie’s upbringing in the United Pentecostal Church An audition that changed Lizzie’s life What Lizzie learned about worship from her family growing up The difference between generations and the tensions of walking with charismatic gifts Why singing only select songs from a few movements is hurting us How to build creative setlist Why Lizzie decided to do a live worship record Why saying yes to God’s will is so difficult Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Not My Will by Lizzie Morgan Lizzie Morgan Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #369: Church Styles, Worship Styles, & Multi-Generational Setlists with Lizzie Morgan appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

As a young worship leader, I used to ask myself the question: “Why is worship such a big deal?” Not in the sense of “God isn’t worthy of it…” but I realized there were no worship leaders in the Bible. Lots of singing. And our church gatherings are built around worship. And there’s a worship industry. And a constant stream of songs and songwriters. It’s a big deal in our modern church culture. I consoled myself with the thought that God is worthy of it. We sing so much because he’s worthy. We write so many songs because he’s worthy. We have so many services because he’s worthy. And while that might not be wrong… has our emphasis on worship led us to an imbalance in our gatherings? Has our emphasis on worship being all about God, led us to neglect the very real horizontal aspects of ministry and discipleship? I wanted to talk about it. My guest today is Dr. Tom Wadsorth, New Testament scholar whose doctoral dissertation was why the first century church did not use worship language when it described its gathering. I know that is controversial. This is a worship podcast. You may be a worship leader. You may be a songwriter who resources the church with new songs. We’re not talking about removing worship and singing from the church. That would be an obvious Biblical misinterpretation. What we are looking at is how did the first century church view its gathering and what can we learn from it today? Because I don’t know about you – it’s possible to worship, listen to sermons, and give in the offering for a lifetime and not mature in my faith. Our churches are full… and growing numerically…but are people maturing in their faith?  What would it look like for us to reimagine our gatherings? This is controversial. You may disagree some. But I think it’s a healthy theme for us to wrestle with. Topics Covered: What constituted the gathering of first century Christians Why worship language would be foreign to the first century church When the shift happened in church history from edification to worship Power and control dynamics throughout church history Why preaching is not a New Testament concept How to balance mega and small church Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Tom Wadsworth 7 Part Series on The Christian Assembly Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #368: Why The Early Church Didn’t Have Worship Services: A Conversation with Dr. Tom Wadsworth appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation gets a little political. I’m talking with Matthew D. Taylor about his book The Violent Take it By Force: The Christian Movement that is Threatening Our Democracy. That title may sound like an angry rant against anyone who voted for Donald Trump. Some sort of desperate ploy by a Democrat to take a cheap shot. It is absolutely not that. America is a democracy. Every US citizen has a right to vote for who they want to vote for. This is not a critique about Donald Trump or anyone who voted for him. What we’re talking about a sect of Independent Charismatic Christianity that has become incredibly influential in the last 25 years and has wedded charismatic spirituality with a messianic understanding of Donald Trump. And these are the leaders who are closely connected to the White House today. What does this have to do with worship? Well, it shouldn’t have much of anything to do with worship but it has been interesting to see Christian worship music and some of the more influential worship movements become so aligned with President Trump. When worship hits the mainstream in such a significant way, it’s worth studying why. Is it a religious revival or is worship or Christianity being used as a tool for empire?  Topics Covered: C. Peter Wagner and the alliance between church growth and charismatic theology The New Apostolic Reformation and why it’s important we understand it A definition of Dominion Theology The Seven Mountain Mandate and how popular this ideology is Why not all charismatic/pentecostal movements and theology are dangerous Paula White and the prosperity Gospel The proper context of Mathew 11:12 The problem with partnering American politics with Christian extremism How we got to where we are today with “apostles” and “prophets” Why charismatic Christianity is so fixated on revival Che Ahn and his network’s merging with the American Militia movement The story of Donald Trump and the Christians instrumental in his rise to power The Sean Feucht saga and what we can learn from it Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center The Violent Take it By Force: The Christian Movement That is Threatening Our Democracy by Matthew D. Taylor Matthew D. Taylor Substack Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #367: The Christian Movement That Is Threatening Our Democracy with Matthew D. Taylor appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

On July 25, 2025 Isaac Caree released a podcast interview with Norman Gyamfi. Norman is a music industry executive and part owner of Maverick City Music. Suffice it to say, this conversation created a firestorm of controversy and conversation around Gospel Music, CCM, and the racial tension embedded within the music industry. We know these things are going on, but for maybe the first time – a business executive let it ALL out. Being that Beyond Sunday is a podcast about worship and the church, I wanted to talk about it so I decided to invite Rick Robinson, a Gospel Music vet onto the show to break down what Norman said and why it is so problematic. One of the things Rick says in the interview is: “Gospel music is a sound. Gospel music is a culture.” And while it’s ok to reinvent and innovate, the beauty of Gospel music does not need toned down or whitewashed in order to succeed. If we do that, we lose the heart and soul of what makes Gospel music what it is. Topics Covered: The history of Gospel Music in Chicago The important difference between ministry and industry The difference between the sacred music of Gospel and the business of Gospel Music The difference between the members of Maverick City and the brand of Maverick City How Norman let us see behind the curtain of industry Why Norman admitting he was a Trump supporter didn’t bolster his argument The problem with anti-black rhetoric, especially coming from a black man Why worship should be its own award category Why artists need to first and foremost be authentic Confronting the racial tensions in the music industry Why black artists are constantly pitched songs by white songwriters but white artists rarely do songs from black artists Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Rick Robinson Otis Blackwell/David Letterman Interview Yacht Rock: A Documentary Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #366: The Truth About The Gospel Industry That Is Actually True with Rick Robinson appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered: Growing up and learning music in the black church Leading multigenerational worship The crazy story of how John was “discovered” Overcoming insecurity and fear The purpose and privilege of corporate worship Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Jon Reddick No Fear by Jon Reddick Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #365: Artist Insecurity, Fear, & The Servant-Hearted Worship Leader with Jon Reddick appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with Pastor and author Brian Zahnd. Brian is the founding and lead pastor of Word of Life Church in St Joseph, MO and the author of 11 books. Brian is not my pastor, but he’s one of the voices I look to in this cultural moment. He’s a voice of clarity, sanity, history, and Bible. Here’s a quick quote from the interview: “I’m convinced the greatest task of the pastoral vocation in America is discipling people who have already thoroughly been discipled into a rival religion.” Topics Covered: The story of how Word of Life Church lost 1500 people Why America is a rival religion to Christianity Why America is more akin to Babylon than ancient Israel How the charismatic movement went awry Why charismatic worship is so aligned with DT and Christian nationalism Why music, literature, and films are important to Brian How Brian uses music to write sermons Brian’s reading habits Why Brian is reading the KJV right now Why reading fiction is so important to preaching and theology Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Brian Zahnd instagram.com/brianzahnd Postcards from Babylon: The Church in American Exile by Brian Zahnd Radical Forgiveness by Brian Zahnd (the book Brian refused to be interviewed on the Paula White show with) Water to Wine: Some of My Story by Brian Zahnd (a great overview of Brian’s church story) Septology by Jon Fosse Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #364: The Rival Religion of America and A Prophetic Call to Pastors with Brian Zahnd appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered: How Dustin got involved in worship ministry The challenge with young artists and worship leaders who taste success early Why the CCM system is broken Practical ways to reform the Christian music industry How we set up young worship leaders for failure New Sanctus Real music Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Sanctus Real You Are I Am by Sanctus Real Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #363: The Current State Of Christian Music with Dustin Lolli From Sanctus Real appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

One my favorite books this year was Be The Bridge: Pursuing God’s Heart for Racial Reconciliation by Latasha Morrison. A wonderful book that is challenging but also compassionate and full of grace. We’ve waded into conversations like this recently with Nikki Lerner, Darwin Hobbs, and David Gate. Why are we doing this? Because I truly believe it matters. It matters for our souls, our relationships, our churches, and our nation. We can bury our heads in the sand and pretend like it’s not an issue or we can move closer to one another be the bridge in this work of reconciliation. Latasha founded Be the Bridge in 2016 to encourage racial reconciliation among all ethnicities, to promote racial unity in America, and to equip others to do the same. In this conversation we go pretty deep. We talk about Latasha’s ministry work, being hired in both black and white churches, brown faces in white spaces (another one of Latasha’s books), the challenge with being a multicultural church today, the church’s complicity in racism throughout history, why facing the darkest parts of our history matters, music and racial bias, and so much more. Topics Covered: Latasha’s church staff experience in black and white churches The courage it takes to pursue multicultural ministry Why multicultural churches are the healthy, growing churches of the future Power dynamics in race relations The differences between white leaders of multicultural churches and black leaders of multicultural churches The church’s complicity in racism and why ignoring it is not “unity” Facing the darkest parts of our history with courage Music and racial bias Resources: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Be The Bridge by Latasha Morrison Brown Faces White Spaces by Latasha Morrison Be The Bridge (Latasha’s organization) David Gate Interview – Two White Guys Talking about The Black Church, Black Music, & Black Liberation Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #362: Is Racial Reconciliation and a Healthy Multicultural Church Possible? An interview with Latasha Morrison appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

So we talk a lot about the worship industry on this podcast. Sometimes that conversation can result in a let’s just wine and complain about how awful it is. But my guests today are not content with that sort of negativity! It will not be tolerated! But here’s the reality: The music industry is built on financial inequality and the worship industry is no different. Those at the top often make a killing, while many musicians and artists struggle to survive. I sat down with @cmcclarney & @thejessephillips from @realfunrecords to talk about it. We’re pulling back the worship industry curtain just a bit to imagine a better way. Well, they are imagining a better way. Many professional musicians you know and love from hit records have no stake in the songs they play on. They essentially get a day rate of $100-$200. Artists have so much money they need to pay back that it’s not sustainable for creativity or a career. Chris & Jesse are forging a new path in a space steeped in “but we’ve always done it this way”.  Topics Covered: The money problem with the music industry Artist empowerment and what it means Equitable and fair partnerships with musicians Why you should think about writing your own songs The impact of streaming Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Real Fun Records Martin Smith Interview Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #361: Reimagining the Worship Industry with Chris McClarney and Jesse Phillips appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.