Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast

Topics Covered: Growing up and learning music in the black church Leading multigenerational worship The crazy story of how John was “discovered” Overcoming insecurity and fear The purpose and privilege of corporate worship Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Jon Reddick No Fear by Jon Reddick Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #365: Artist Insecurity, Fear, & The Servant-Hearted Worship Leader with Jon Reddick appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with Pastor and author Brian Zahnd. Brian is the founding and lead pastor of Word of Life Church in St Joseph, MO and the author of 11 books. Brian is not my pastor, but he’s one of the voices I look to in this cultural moment. He’s a voice of clarity, sanity, history, and Bible. Here’s a quick quote from the interview: “I’m convinced the greatest task of the pastoral vocation in America is discipling people who have already thoroughly been discipled into a rival religion.” Topics Covered: The story of how Word of Life Church lost 1500 people Why America is a rival religion to Christianity Why America is more akin to Babylon than ancient Israel How the charismatic movement went awry Why charismatic worship is so aligned with DT and Christian nationalism Why music, literature, and films are important to Brian How Brian uses music to write sermons Brian’s reading habits Why Brian is reading the KJV right now Why reading fiction is so important to preaching and theology Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Brian Zahnd instagram.com/brianzahnd Postcards from Babylon: The Church in American Exile by Brian Zahnd Radical Forgiveness by Brian Zahnd (the book Brian refused to be interviewed on the Paula White show with) Water to Wine: Some of My Story by Brian Zahnd (a great overview of Brian’s church story) Septology by Jon Fosse Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #364: The Rival Religion of America and A Prophetic Call to Pastors with Brian Zahnd appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered: How Dustin got involved in worship ministry The challenge with young artists and worship leaders who taste success early Why the CCM system is broken Practical ways to reform the Christian music industry How we set up young worship leaders for failure New Sanctus Real music Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Sanctus Real You Are I Am by Sanctus Real Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #363: The Current State Of Christian Music with Dustin Lolli From Sanctus Real appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

One my favorite books this year was Be The Bridge: Pursuing God’s Heart for Racial Reconciliation by Latasha Morrison. A wonderful book that is challenging but also compassionate and full of grace. We’ve waded into conversations like this recently with Nikki Lerner, Darwin Hobbs, and David Gate. Why are we doing this? Because I truly believe it matters. It matters for our souls, our relationships, our churches, and our nation. We can bury our heads in the sand and pretend like it’s not an issue or we can move closer to one another be the bridge in this work of reconciliation. Latasha founded Be the Bridge in 2016 to encourage racial reconciliation among all ethnicities, to promote racial unity in America, and to equip others to do the same. In this conversation we go pretty deep. We talk about Latasha’s ministry work, being hired in both black and white churches, brown faces in white spaces (another one of Latasha’s books), the challenge with being a multicultural church today, the church’s complicity in racism throughout history, why facing the darkest parts of our history matters, music and racial bias, and so much more. Topics Covered: Latasha’s church staff experience in black and white churches The courage it takes to pursue multicultural ministry Why multicultural churches are the healthy, growing churches of the future Power dynamics in race relations The differences between white leaders of multicultural churches and black leaders of multicultural churches The church’s complicity in racism and why ignoring it is not “unity” Facing the darkest parts of our history with courage Music and racial bias Resources: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Be The Bridge by Latasha Morrison Brown Faces White Spaces by Latasha Morrison Be The Bridge (Latasha’s organization) David Gate Interview – Two White Guys Talking about The Black Church, Black Music, & Black Liberation Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #362: Is Racial Reconciliation and a Healthy Multicultural Church Possible? An interview with Latasha Morrison appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

So we talk a lot about the worship industry on this podcast. Sometimes that conversation can result in a let’s just wine and complain about how awful it is. But my guests today are not content with that sort of negativity! It will not be tolerated! But here’s the reality: The music industry is built on financial inequality and the worship industry is no different. Those at the top often make a killing, while many musicians and artists struggle to survive. I sat down with @cmcclarney & @thejessephillips from @realfunrecords to talk about it. We’re pulling back the worship industry curtain just a bit to imagine a better way. Well, they are imagining a better way. Many professional musicians you know and love from hit records have no stake in the songs they play on. They essentially get a day rate of $100-$200. Artists have so much money they need to pay back that it’s not sustainable for creativity or a career. Chris & Jesse are forging a new path in a space steeped in “but we’ve always done it this way”.  Topics Covered: The money problem with the music industry Artist empowerment and what it means Equitable and fair partnerships with musicians Why you should think about writing your own songs The impact of streaming Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Real Fun Records Martin Smith Interview Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. The post #361: Reimagining the Worship Industry with Chris McClarney and Jesse Phillips appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is a bit of a departure from our usual worship leader/worship industry conversation. I’m talking with Stanley Hauerwas. Here’s his bio: Stanley Hauerwas, a theologian and Christian ethicist, is professor emeritus of theological ethics and of law at Duke University. He is the author or editor of more than fifty books, including Resident Aliens: Life in the Christian Colony (1989), which he co-authored with William H. Willimon. His lower-middle-class upbringing informed his later approach to theological and ethical questions (at one point, he was apprenticed to his father, a bricklayer). In 2001, Time magazine named Hauerwas “America’s Best Theologian”; he replied that “best” is not a theological category.  Stanley will turn 85 this year. I’m new to Stanley’s work but absolutely devoured his new book Jesus Changes Everything as well as his landmark work, Resident Aliens. I find his thinking incredibly helpful in navigating our current times. He don’ts pull any punches or hide behind any veneer of religiosity.  Topics Covered: Stanley’s love of travel and baseball How Stanley came to faith in Christ The influence of Karl Barth How Stanley “got saved” The similarities between evangelicalism and protestant liberalism How Christian “experience” gets us off track How Jesus changes everything Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Jesus Changes Everything: A New World Made Possible by Stanley Hauerwas Resident Aliens: Life in the Christian Colony by Stanley Hauerwas Lives of the Saints by Fr. Alban Butler Dogmatics in Outline by Karl Barth God Matters by Herbert McCabe Friendship and Ways to Truth by David Burrell Naming God: Addressing the Divine in Philosophy, Theology, and Scripture by Janet Soskice Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #360: The Church, Culture, & How Jesus Changes Everything with Stanley Hauerwas appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s interview is with Glenn Packiam – if you’re not familiar with Glenn, he’s one of the modern worship OGs. I mean, Desperation Band, new Life Worship. He wrote the song Your Name with Paul Baloche. But over the years Glenn’s journey has moved from worship ministry to pastoral ministry. He was the campus pastor at New Life Church’s downtown campus in CO and is now the Lead Pastor at Rock Harbor in Orange County, CA. Glenn is a deep well and a balanced voice in the church. In this interview we break down his recent book “What’s a Christian Anyway” a wonderful book based on the Nicene creed. We talk about how we can glean insights from various church traditions, why creeds are important, why the church’s reputation is suffering in America today, how lead pastors and worship leaders can understand each other better, and what to look for in hiring a worship pastor. Topics Covered: We talk about how we can glean insights from various church traditions Why creeds are important Why the church’s reputation is suffering in America today How lead pastors and worship leaders can understand each other better What to look for in hiring a worship pastor. So let’s get right to my conversation with Glenn Packiam. Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center What’s a Christian Anyway: Finding Our Way in an Age of Confusion and Corruption by Glenn Packiam What’s a Christian Anyway website No Rules Rules: Netflix and the Culture of Innovation by Reed Hastings & Erin Meyer Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn’t Enough by John Ortberg Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #359: Christianity in Chaos? How We Can Find Our Way In An Age of Confusion and Corruption with Glenn Packiam appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s topic and subject matter is a tough one. I’m talking with my friend David Gate. David is a writer and poet. He has a new book releasing in 2025 called A Rebellion of Care. But David also has a long history as a worship leader, songwriter, and artist. David wrote an article recently in response to the new Ryan Coogler move Sinners, starring Michael B Jordan. The title of that article was “How White Charismatic Worship Stole from the Black Church: The Vampires who steal stories and songs and culture.” I know. It’s a bold, often cutting article. And while I don’t agree with everything he says, I believe he gets to the heart of a tension that many feel. As with most of American culture throughout history, we have not given due credit to the black church. To black music. Black innovation. We have borrowed (or as David would say – stolen) from black culture and profited wildly off of its innovation and yet have not cared about black liberation in the white charismatic church. Which is the heart of what this conversation is about. Topics Covered: A breakdown of the movie “Sinners” The theft of black music and culture The beauty and story of the Black Church Performance in Black vs White contexts Becoming aware the causes of black liberation The influence of the blues on white rock & roll Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center David Gate Poet instagram.com/davidgatepoet A Rebellion of Care by David Gate (preorder) Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #358: Two White Guys Talking About The Black Church, Black Music, & Black Liberation (An Interview with David Gate) appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with my friend Andy Cherry. Andy is a Worship Leader, former Worship Pastor, Songwriter with Capitol CMG, and touring bandmate with Brandon Lake. Andy is mega talented and a thoughtful voice on the tensions of worship and industry. As a professional songwriter, he’s someone whose livelihood is connected to the worship industry. We have a great chat about excellence culture in the church. Has it gone too far? Why it’s uncomfortable to combine the words “worship” and “industry”.   Why we need to expand the kinds of leaders we hire into Worship Pastor roles. At the heart of it all is a love for Jesus, a passion for His presence, and a desire to serve the people of God through honest art and biblical faithfulness. Topics Covered: Early influential records The problem with our performance culture in church Separating concert from church Why we need to write about more topics Andy’s songwriting & creative process Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Andy Cherry instagram.com/andycherry Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #357: The Separation of Church and Concert with Andy Cherry appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with Dr. Lester Ruth, a research professor of Christian Worship at Duke Divinity School. If you go back in the archives you’ll see I interviewed Lester and Swee Hong Lim around the time they released their book A History of Contemporary Praise & Worship. Lester is a worship historian. The subject of this interview is about Christian Nationalism and Worship, a new course that Lester has been teaching. I wanted to interview Lester about this because I believe it has so much relevance to our current political climate, the church, and our worship practices. Now…I know anything political tends to bring out some tensions. And this may cause some frustration for you. But the goal here is not to be partisan or take sides. We’re merely looking at the history of Christian nationalism today and even around the world. We talk about the three strands of Christian nationalism in the US today. We talk about the intersection of worship and christian nationalism and how that influences the kinds of songs we sing. We also talk about how we can have healthier dialogue together, no matter our political differences. We even end the podcast with some Civil War history and Lester’s reading habits/suggestions. Topics Covered: The 3 Strands of Christian Nationalism in the United States today The global nature of religions nationalism How worship can be co-opted by Christian nationalism The surprising religious beliefs of our nation’s founders Civil War history and how it relates to Christian Nationalism Worship Industry tensions Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Beatitudes Through The Ages by Rebekah Eklund The Violent Take it By Force: The Christian Movement That Is Threatening Our Democracy by Matthew D. Taylor The Demon of Unrest: A Saga of Hubris, Heartbreak, & Heroism at the Dawn of the Civil War by Erik Larson And There Was Light: Abraham Lincoln and the American Struggle by Jon Meacham Lincoln at Gettysburg: The Words that Remade America by Garry Wills April 1865: The Month that Saved America (Civil War Sagas) by Jay Winik Upon the Altar of a Nation: A Moral History of the Civil War by Harry Stout Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #356: Christian Nationalism and Worship: Faith, Politics, & Identity with Dr. Lester Ruth appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.