Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast

Today’s interview is with Glenn Packiam – if you’re not familiar with Glenn, he’s one of the modern worship OGs. I mean, Desperation Band, new Life Worship. He wrote the song Your Name with Paul Baloche. But over the years Glenn’s journey has moved from worship ministry to pastoral ministry. He was the campus pastor at New Life Church’s downtown campus in CO and is now the Lead Pastor at Rock Harbor in Orange County, CA. Glenn is a deep well and a balanced voice in the church. In this interview we break down his recent book “What’s a Christian Anyway” a wonderful book based on the Nicene creed. We talk about how we can glean insights from various church traditions, why creeds are important, why the church’s reputation is suffering in America today, how lead pastors and worship leaders can understand each other better, and what to look for in hiring a worship pastor. Topics Covered: We talk about how we can glean insights from various church traditions Why creeds are important Why the church’s reputation is suffering in America today How lead pastors and worship leaders can understand each other better What to look for in hiring a worship pastor. So let’s get right to my conversation with Glenn Packiam. Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center What’s a Christian Anyway: Finding Our Way in an Age of Confusion and Corruption by Glenn Packiam What’s a Christian Anyway website No Rules Rules: Netflix and the Culture of Innovation by Reed Hastings & Erin Meyer Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn’t Enough by John Ortberg Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #359: Christianity in Chaos? How We Can Find Our Way In An Age of Confusion and Corruption with Glenn Packiam appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s topic and subject matter is a tough one. I’m talking with my friend David Gate. David is a writer and poet. He has a new book releasing in 2025 called A Rebellion of Care. But David also has a long history as a worship leader, songwriter, and artist. David wrote an article recently in response to the new Ryan Coogler move Sinners, starring Michael B Jordan. The title of that article was “How White Charismatic Worship Stole from the Black Church: The Vampires who steal stories and songs and culture.” I know. It’s a bold, often cutting article. And while I don’t agree with everything he says, I believe he gets to the heart of a tension that many feel. As with most of American culture throughout history, we have not given due credit to the black church. To black music. Black innovation. We have borrowed (or as David would say – stolen) from black culture and profited wildly off of its innovation and yet have not cared about black liberation in the white charismatic church. Which is the heart of what this conversation is about. Topics Covered: A breakdown of the movie “Sinners” The theft of black music and culture The beauty and story of the Black Church Performance in Black vs White contexts Becoming aware the causes of black liberation The influence of the blues on white rock & roll Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center David Gate Poet instagram.com/davidgatepoet A Rebellion of Care by David Gate (preorder) Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #358: Two White Guys Talking About The Black Church, Black Music, & Black Liberation (An Interview with David Gate) appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with my friend Andy Cherry. Andy is a Worship Leader, former Worship Pastor, Songwriter with Capitol CMG, and touring bandmate with Brandon Lake. Andy is mega talented and a thoughtful voice on the tensions of worship and industry. As a professional songwriter, he’s someone whose livelihood is connected to the worship industry. We have a great chat about excellence culture in the church. Has it gone too far? Why it’s uncomfortable to combine the words “worship” and “industry”.   Why we need to expand the kinds of leaders we hire into Worship Pastor roles. At the heart of it all is a love for Jesus, a passion for His presence, and a desire to serve the people of God through honest art and biblical faithfulness. Topics Covered: Early influential records The problem with our performance culture in church Separating concert from church Why we need to write about more topics Andy’s songwriting & creative process Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Andy Cherry instagram.com/andycherry Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #357: The Separation of Church and Concert with Andy Cherry appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with Dr. Lester Ruth, a research professor of Christian Worship at Duke Divinity School. If you go back in the archives you’ll see I interviewed Lester and Swee Hong Lim around the time they released their book A History of Contemporary Praise & Worship. Lester is a worship historian. The subject of this interview is about Christian Nationalism and Worship, a new course that Lester has been teaching. I wanted to interview Lester about this because I believe it has so much relevance to our current political climate, the church, and our worship practices. Now…I know anything political tends to bring out some tensions. And this may cause some frustration for you. But the goal here is not to be partisan or take sides. We’re merely looking at the history of Christian nationalism today and even around the world. We talk about the three strands of Christian nationalism in the US today. We talk about the intersection of worship and christian nationalism and how that influences the kinds of songs we sing. We also talk about how we can have healthier dialogue together, no matter our political differences. We even end the podcast with some Civil War history and Lester’s reading habits/suggestions. Topics Covered: The 3 Strands of Christian Nationalism in the United States today The global nature of religions nationalism How worship can be co-opted by Christian nationalism The surprising religious beliefs of our nation’s founders Civil War history and how it relates to Christian Nationalism Worship Industry tensions Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Beatitudes Through The Ages by Rebekah Eklund The Violent Take it By Force: The Christian Movement That Is Threatening Our Democracy by Matthew D. Taylor The Demon of Unrest: A Saga of Hubris, Heartbreak, & Heroism at the Dawn of the Civil War by Erik Larson And There Was Light: Abraham Lincoln and the American Struggle by Jon Meacham Lincoln at Gettysburg: The Words that Remade America by Garry Wills April 1865: The Month that Saved America (Civil War Sagas) by Jay Winik Upon the Altar of a Nation: A Moral History of the Civil War by Harry Stout Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #356: Christian Nationalism and Worship: Faith, Politics, & Identity with Dr. Lester Ruth appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with Andrew Osenga. Andrew is an artist, songwriter, producer, musician, and author. He used to do A&R with Integrity Music. Used to have a band called The Normals. Was a part of Caedmon’s Call. Has a host of solo records and albums. He’s a very thoughtful voice in this space of worship and spiritual formation. He leads a project called Anchor Hymns. This was a deep, far ranging conversation. Topics Covered: Why we didn’t need to be sheltered from all thing secular How radio and Christian product has influenced our worship songwriting How fundamentalism warped our view of hymns Local church songwriting Why we need to write worship songs about more diverse topics Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Andrew Osenga Anchor Hymns Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #355: How Industry And Christian Product Has Influenced Worship in the Local Church with Andrew Osenga appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is an interesting juxtaposition to last week’s podcast with Jason Houtsma. Jason leads worship in a church of less than 100 people. Today’s guest – Jordan Howerton – is the Worship Pastor for one of the largest churches in the country – Christ’s Church of the Valley in Phoenix, AZ. If you’ve listened to the my podcast for a while, you’ll know I don’t believe bigger is better. There is beauty in small. There is dignity in serving and pastoring a small church with incremental or slow growth year after year. But for today, I want us to dive into the mega church dynamic. What does it take to lead a staff of 70 people in worship and production? How can you care for and pastor hundreds of volunteers? How do you develop a unified worship culture across 18 campuses? We dive into all of that here. My conversation with Jordan Howerton  Topics Covered: Growing up in a small church + small church dynamics The challenge of being a worship leader today Why we need to make local church ministry great again Why God is moving in mega churches Dysfunction in both small and large churches Discipleship for your worship team What resources CCV uses to support their worship teams Why CCV doesn’t provide chord charts to their teams Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies (use promo code BEYOND2025) Show Sponsor: Planning Center CCV Music Show Sponsor #1: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies.  One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo.  I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough. IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you. Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry.  Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #354: Leading Teams and Leading Worship in a Mega Church with Jordan Howerton appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered: Playing actual live music in worship The small church community Comparing large church/high production to small church/low production Why you might NOT want to use clicks and tracks Taking risks and being creative in worship again Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies (use promo code BEYOND2025) Show Sponsor: Planning Center Scars by Jason Houtsma Worship Artistry My Name is Asher Lev by Chaim Potok Show Sponsor #1: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies.  One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo.  I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough. IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you. Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry.  Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #353: Small Church Worship, Click Tracks, & How Anyone Can Make a Worship Album with Jason Houtsma appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered: Coffee snobbery John’s favorite US (and international) coffee shops How to extend your vocal range Caring for the person, not the just the gifting The importance of staying rooted in a local church The dangers of ego and self centeredness in ministry Sonship Time restraints in worship Structure and flow in worship Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies (use promo code BEYOND2025) Show Sponsor: Planning Center Dealing With the Rejection and Praise of Man by Bob Sorge Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday Deeply Coffee Lineage Coffee Show Sponsor #1: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies.  One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo.  I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough. IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you. Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry.  Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #352: Discipleship, Ego, & Pursuing the Presence of God in Your Local Church with John Wilds appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Today’s conversation is with Natalie Runion – Natalie is a worship leader, author, speaker, and founder of the online community Raised to Stay. She’s written two books – Raised to Stay and The House that Jesus Built, both powerful, insightful reads into the realities of local church ministry. In this conversation we talk about worship ministry tensions, aging out of ministry roles, challenges for women in ministry, the idol of green room culture, responding to church hurt, and why our obsession with church growth can get us off track. Natalie is bold, challenging, and an important voice to the church today. Topics Covered: How Natalie discovered this concept of “Raised to Stay” Worship as a church growth tool How to approach a full time ministry role Why our emphasis on leadership is hurting our leadership The idol of green rooms The entitlement of worship leaders Why the conversation around “anointing” needs to change The tension and struggle of being a female worship pastor Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies (use promo code BEYOND2025) Show Sponsor: Planning Center Raised to Stay (website) Raised to Stay: Persevering in Ministry When You Have a Million Reasons to Walk Away by Natalie Runion The House That Jesus Built: Leading Our Churches Back to God’s Original Blueprint by Natalie Runion Instagram.com/raisedtostay Show Sponsor #1: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies This episode is brought to you by the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies.  One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo.  I can’t recommend the Robert E Webber Institute for Worship Studies enough. IWS offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, IWS is the place for you. Visit IWS.edu and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry. Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #351: Anointing Over Gifting, Women in Worship, & Evaluating the Foundation of Our Ministries with Natalie Runion appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered: Unlearning and deciphering mega church worship models Why it’s not our job to move the room Trusting the Holy Spirit as a worship leader How the Church Growth movement has effected the role of worship leaders Why we have elevated young leaders too soon An alternative to big, massive, mega church worship Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Planning Center Level Up Coaching for Female Creatives w/ Becky Ykema Becky’s website How Firm a Foundation by Hymns of the People Pastors, Priests, & Guides – the retreat that Becky is a part of Slingshot Group – Staffing & Coaching for churches & nonprofits Show Sponsor: My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to planningcenter.com to use People for free. The post #350: Deciphering, Unlearning, and Reframing Mega Church Worship Models with Becky Ykema appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.