The Peaceful Parenting Podcast

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein returns to talk with me about what parents need to know about concerning anti-woman rhetoric and actions in the “manosphere” and the “womanosphere”. We cover the philosophy of each, the terms and important figures of these movements, as well as what to do if your kid is already being influenced and how to protect them from these harmful messages.**If you’d like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 7:10 What is misogyny?* 7:45 What is the “manosphere”?* 15:00 What is the “womanosphere”?* 20:00 What are the false statistics that have a lot of traction?* 22:00 What do we do as parents for our boys?* 26:00 What to do if your boys are listening to misogynistic influencers* 28:00 The four parts of developing critical media literacy* 35:30 How to mentor not monitor social media* 34:00 Terminology we need to know as parentsResources mentioned in this episode:* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player* The Peaceful Parenting Membership* Sexism and Sensibility: Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls in the Modern World with Jo Ann Finkelstein: Episode 164 * Sexism & Sensibility Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls In The Modern World * Episode 118: Raising Kids in the Era of Technology with Devorah Heitner * Jo-Ann Finkelstein’s Substack* Jo-Ann Finkelstein’s website xx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.Our sponsors:YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can’t go where you don’t want them to go and they aren’t watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HERETranscript:Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast.I’ve been noticing a lot in the media, and in the world around me, an enormous amount of tension around gender equity and ideology—as well as seeing concerning anti-woman rhetoric and actions. I’ve also heard from parents who are worried about the influencers and media their kids are being exposed to, and the really quite problematic ideas that come with that.That’s why I asked Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein to come back on the podcast. She was on an earlier episode about her book Sexism and Sensibility—we’ll link to that in the show notes if you haven’t heard it yet. I wanted her to talk with me about what parents need to know about the manosphere and the womanosphere.You might not even have heard of the womanosphere—I just learned about it through Jo-Ann’s work. And while I think most of us have heard of the manosphere, we might not be quite sure what it is. Jo-Ann gives us a great overview of the big ideas, terms, and key figures of these movements, as well as what to do if your child is already being influenced—and how to protect them from these, quite frankly, harmful ideas.If you know anyone who needs to hear this, please share it with them. And we’d really appreciate it if you’d rate and review the podcast on your favorite podcast player app—it really helps us reach more families and support more children and their caregivers.Let’s meet Jo-Ann.Sarah: Hey, Jo-Ann, welcome back to the podcast.Jo-Ann: I am so glad to be back.Sarah: I’ve really been wanting to talk to you about today’s topic because there’s just so much going on in the world—and in North America right now—that feels so hard. Especially as a person who cares about people, and as a parent. I get your Substack and I love what you write about gender equity and sexism. Of course, your book Sexism and Sensibility was what you were on the podcast to talk about last time—it’s a wonderful book. We’ll link to that episode and to your book in the show notes.But before I dive in any further, tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do.Jo-Ann: I’m a clinical psychologist and a writer. I wrote the book Sexism and Sensibility: Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls in the Modern World, as you just mentioned. I see all genders in my private practice, but I do see a lot of girls and women—and a lot of mothers and daughters.Since writing the book, and especially since the political changes we’ve seen in the United States, I’ve really expanded the areas I study, think about, and write about. So I’m glad to be here to talk about such an important topic—the manosphere and the womanosphere.Sarah: I’m so glad you’re here to talk about it. My feeling is that we’re going backwards in terms of gender equity and women’s rights—rights that were hard-won over generations. We’ve seen the loss of reproductive rights in the U.S. and threats of even more restrictions. And it feels like it’s become more acceptable again to share misogynistic viewpoints, especially with the rise of the manosphere and the womanosphere.Before we go further, can you explain a few things for anyone who might not know? What is misogyny?Jo-Ann: Misogyny literally means “hatred of women,” but it’s often used more broadly to describe the sexism women experience. It can be an attitude or an action—something someone does to put down or harm someone who identifies as female.Sarah: Okay, and then the manosphere and the womanosphere—or femosphere, as you said it’s sometimes called.Jo-Ann: Yes, though there are slight differences between the womanosphere and femosphere. But basically, the manosphere is a diverse collection of websites, blogs, and online forums that promote masculinity, misogyny, and opposition to feminism.In a world where two-thirds of young men say that nobody really knows them—and where there’s no clear agreement on what a “good man” looks like or how to become one—it creates the perfect conditions for men to look for connection online, often through the manosphere.This network swoops in to provide what feels like clear messaging about gender roles and relationships—and it promotes the belief that for women to advance, men have to lose something.Sarah: When I was reading about it yesterday to prepare for this, one thing that stood out was that a lot of young men don’t necessarily encounter the overt anti-woman content right away. It often starts with fitness advice, or how to talk to girls—kind of self-improvement content. The anti-woman message is the undercurrent, but it’s still there.Jo-Ann: Exactly. They swoop in with these simple explanations of how to be a man—and they groom these boys in a very slow-drip way. The scary messages are mixed in with talk about gaming, relationships, mental health, wellbeing, getting rich, and getting enough protein.The misogyny starts as memes or jokes—things that can be brushed off as humor or “locker room talk.” But over time, algorithm pulsl them further down the rabbit hole, toward deeper messages about being victimized by society.You can imagine a lonely, rejected boy sitting at his computer thinking, “Yeah, that’s not fair—I haven’t done anything wrong. The system is rigged against me. I’m being victimized.” It’s a very appealing message for someone who feels like a loser—to reframe himself as an underdog, downtrodden by a world that’s unfair to him.Sarah: Do you think that connects to the Me Too movement? Was the rise of the manosphere a response to that, or did it start earlier?Jo-Ann: I don’t know if there’s a direct line, but yes—I write a lot about backlash. Me Too was a real moment for women to speak up and have their voices heard, to talk about the things in our culture that are frightening, violent, and deeply unfair.Whenever there’s progress, there’s backlash. As women began to be heard and things started to change, it felt threatening to some men. That’s part of what fuels the manosphere.And just to clarify for your listeners—kids don’t call it “the manosphere.” Adults do. The kids think that term is totally cringe.Sarah: Right, your teenager’s not going to respond if you say, “Who do you follow in the manosphere?” They’ll be like, “What?”Jo-Ann: Exactly.Sarah: But I have had a friend—a progressive dad—reach out to say, “My 15-year-old son loves Andrew Tate. What do I do?” And Andrew Tate seems like one of the biggest figures in the manosphere.Jo-Ann: Yes, Andrew Tate is huge—and very toxic. He was charged with sex trafficking and sexual assault in Romania and London, and Trump is thought to have even helped bring him back to the U.S. so he couldn’t be tried.Sarah: Let’s talk a bit about the femosphere, but before that, I just want to say—my 18-year-old daughter started working in restaurants this year, and as much as it feels like we’re going backwards in some ways, I can see progress too. When I was her age, there were things that were totally acceptable—especially in restaurant culture—that no one would ever do now, at least not openly.And I see in my kids’ generation this awareness and confidence—when someone says or does something inappropriate, they call it out right away.Jo-Ann: Yes, we don’t want to be too depressing—there has been real progress. I wouldn’t say those things never happen anymore, but maybe they happen less, and there’s much more awareness around them.Sarah: I think maybe part of the rise of the manosphere is that feeling among some men that the ground has shifted under them. There was this celebrity who got “canceled” for behavior that would have been considered normal when I was a teenager, and I think a lot of men who grew up with that were like, “Wait—that’s just how it’s always been.”Jo-Ann: Exactly. That used to be part of masculinity—and now you’re saying they can’t do that. So they ask, “What is masculinity?” And women are saying, “Just behave well. Don’t be a creep.” And they’re like, “Wait—I thought that was being a man.” It’s confusing.We have to listen to boys, take them seriously, and teach them well.Sarah: Thank you for saying that—much more eloquently than I did. Okay, so what’s the womanosphere?Jo-Ann: Before we go on, I want to add that some of the other big manosphere influencers are people like Logan Paul and the Nelk Boys—who, by the way, are from Canada originally. They’ve had a huge influence on boys and even on the U.S. election outcomes.Sarah: I’d never even heard of them—thank you.Jo-Ann: So, the womanosphere includes people like Brett Cooper and Candace Owens. It’s helpful to know what to look out for.If the manosphere is toxic masculinity dressed up as philosophy, then the womanosphere is misogyny dressed up in milkmaid clothing.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Jo-Ann: It looks soft, harmless, even aspirational—cottagecore filters, tradwife influencers with gorgeous homes and perfectly dressed kids. But beneath that aesthetic is a push for women to shrink themselves, to submit to their husbands, and to trade ambition for dependency.It preys on the very real struggles women face. But instead of fighting for systemic change—like paid leave, affordable childcare, or equal partnership—it sells women this glossy rewind to the days when women were expected to find fulfillment only through being a wife and mother, taking on all the domestic labor with a smile.If you’re a woman suffering, —or a girl who sees your mom — suffering under the weight of everything she does, the message “Just let him take care of you” can sound pretty appealing.Sarah: It must also be a direct response to how hard it is for women to juggle it all. I was listening to an interview with Elizabeth Warren, and she talked about how, as a young mother, her biggest struggle was finding reliable, affordable childcare. Then her daughter’s biggest struggle was the same thing—and now her granddaughter’s is too.And I recently listened to Ketanji Brown Jackson’s memoir, where she talked about crying on the kitchen floor because she didn’t know how she could keep working and still care for her kids, even with two working parents.So when it all feels overwhelming, that romanticized domestic ideal must look really appealing.Jo-Ann: Absolutely. Working and raising kids—it’s exhausting. I look back and don’t know how I survived those years. None of us can be the moms we want to be when we’re that tired and still fighting for equality at home.So yes, when you see a woman on the internet who looks like she has it all together, you think, “I want that.”Sarah: Yeah. And I think it can be even darker than just the “make your own bread and stay home” message—there’s also the undercurrent of submission, of not being an equal partner.Jo-Ann: Oh yes. There’s a lot about submitting to your husband. The goal seems to be: if we glorify femininity and motherhood enough, women will stop demanding things like birth control and abortion access. They’ll become too overwhelmed, overburdened, and outnumbered to organize against a culture built to serve men’s needs at women’s expense.I really do think this comes from a deep fear—among men in power—of women’s power. A fear that they’ll lose what they’ve long believed is their birthright.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Jo-Ann: Their birthright of power, head of household status, sex—all the things they’ve been raised to believe they’re entitled to.Sarah: Right? So, where does it make sense to go to next in our conversation here? I mean, I had some anecdotes that I’ve shared a couple of along the way, but one thing that made me think about this was watching this documentary—have you seen the Lilith Fair documentary on Netflix?Jo-Ann: No, I haven’t.Sarah: It was really good.Jo-Ann: I’ve heard it’s really good.Sarah: It was really good. Why Sarah McLachlan organized Lilith Fair was because she would go to a radio station, and they’d be like, “Oh, we really like your music, but we already have a woman on this week—we’re playing Tracy Chapman.” There was just so much sexism in the music industry, right? There wasn’t room for more than one woman at a time. So she was like, “I’m going to do a whole festival with only women.” And it was enormously successful.Then the next weekend, I went to a three-day music festival, and I started counting how many women were on stage. I had to stop because it was so depressing. It’s still the same. It’s a little off-topic from the womanosphere and manosphere, but sometimes I just feel so helpless. Like, what’s the point in all of this? So what can we do as parents?Jo-Ann: Before we get into the how-to, I just want parents to get a sense of what their kids are hearing. They’re hearing the same false statistics over and over again—like “false rape allegations are very common.” They hear that all the time.So as a woman, you’re saying, “I’m counting these people on stage, and there are very few women.” But they’re hearing the opposite. They’re hearing, “Women are taking over,” that “men are losing out,” that “they’re being rejected because 80% of women only date 20% of men,” which is false. They hear conspiracy theories that feminists want to destroy white men, who are supposedly the real victims of society.So your son is online, finding this community of guys who feel the same way he does—and they’re offering him belonging he may not have felt before. These are ready-made friends. And like you said, it’s this drip, this undercurrent. When they start to realize that these men are actually calling for the rape and destruction of women, it doesn’t sound that bad anymore because they’ve been so overwhelmed by these messages. It starts to sound normal—maybe even righteous—to incite hatred toward girls and women.It doesn’t just harm women—it harms boys and men too, because it promotes unrealistic and extreme measures to “improve” their social standing. For example, “looksmaxing”—which can mean anything from hygiene tips and fitness routines to extreme dietary restrictions, cosmetic surgery, or steroid use.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Jo-Ann: So as parents, we have to help boys integrate the idea of themselves as caring, emotionally connected, cooperative people—to see those qualities as aspirational, not emasculating.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Jo-Ann: For the good of everybody. That’s a basic value that I’m sure many of your listeners already hold, but we have to help boys understand that those are human qualities, not feminine ones. Because at the root of sexism is the rejection of the feminine.Sarah: The people listening to my podcast already care about connection, but I just want to call out—having raised two boys—don’t listen to anyone who tells you they need you less than your girls might, or that they’re not as bothered by things. They still need connection, care, and intimacy with their families just as much as girls do.Jo-Ann: And they need it within friendships too. But when they seek it out, they’re called “soy boys” or “white knights.” If they’re seen as subservient to women in any way, or having needs that women have, they get called derogatory names.Sarah: Okay. So, onto the how-to—what would you say to my friend whose 15-year-old loves Andrew Tate?Jo-Ann: The first thing I’d say is don’t panic. Be curious. Really listen without jumping to react, even if what they say is shocking or upsetting—because that will just push them away.I went through this with my son. It wasn’t extreme, but he was listening to a lot of those streamers. Thankfully, he was bringing some of this stuff to us, kind of with bravado. Inside, I’d feel disgusted or angry, but I kept my poker face and really listened.We’re lucky—he grew up with parents who think critically about these things, and in a liberal extended family, so he was less likely to go down that road. But he really could have. He’s also very skeptical. He’d notice when some streamers shifted politically—from liberal to very conservative—and he’d say, “These people are getting paid.”So we really want to help our kids develop critical media literacy.Engaging online with your kid can be a natural way to start conversations about what they’re exposed to. I talk about this in my book—it can be broken down into four parts.Sarah: Sure.Jo-Ann: The first one is to promote skeptical thinking. Teach your kids to question information they see online. Encourage them to consider the source and the creator’s intentions. For example, they can ask, “Why is this person telling me this? What are they trying to sell me?”The second is to explain the origins of online content. Teach them that many influencers monetize controversy. They use shock value, misinformation, or skewed statistics to get views—and their advice often lacks expertise. You can say, “These guys aren’t experts. I wonder where they’re getting their information. Let’s look up the real statistics.”Third, teach them that these ideas aren’t just internet fads—they’re tied to larger political goals, like restricting reproductive rights, pushing “hyper-motherhood,” and keeping women too overburdened to organize.Also, teach them how “anti-victim” language reframes systemic issues as personal failures. “It’s not sexism—it’s your mindset.”Sarah: Right.Jo-Ann: That’s especially true for girls, because it turns structural inequality into an individual woman’s problem to fix.Sarah: Right—like, “You’re just not working hard enough,” or “You don’t believe in yourself.”Jo-Ann: Exactly. Or, “It was just a joke. Stop being so sensitive.” It’s the same old stuff. We want them to understand that real liberation isn’t just “dealing with the cards you’re dealt.”Because in the womanosphere, you’ll hear, “Men are just naturally stronger and need to lead—and if you let them, everything will be fine.” And in the femosphere, it’s “Men are trash; you’ve got to game the system, use them for money.” We want girls to see that real liberation is the opposite—it’s about naming injustice, demanding systemic change, and building communities of women.The fourth part is to debunk pseudoscience. Teach kids to recognize misinformation—distorted statistics or pseudoscientific gender theories—and help them identify reputable sources. Give them solid information about mental health and relationships.And finally, talk openly about and challenge gender stereotypes. Point out the endless denigration of girls and women in movies, TV shows, and other media. Help them see that stereotypes limit everyone and reinforce the rigid beliefs of those online echo chambers.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Jo-Ann: I give a lot of examples of this in Sexism and Sensibility—common sexist themes in media that parents can use to reach their kids. Of course, you don’t want to “yuck their yum” too much, or they’ll tune you out. Ask open-ended questions, share your thoughts, and encourage reflection—but don’t be heavy-handed, or you’ll lose them.Sarah: Yeah, that’s super important. Because if you go too hard, they’ll just go underground. They won’t tell you what they’re following or listening to, and you’ll have even less ability to help them think critically about it.Where do you stand on social media guidelines? Do you think people are right to say “no social media until 16”?Jo-Ann: I’m not a social media expert, but I don’t think waiting until 16 is realistic. I really believe “mentor, not monitor” is the more effective way—because kids will always find ways around the rules.Of course, when they’re young, the longer you can delay Snapchat, Instagram, and TikTok, the better. But that’s how teens find community and connect. It’s not all bad. Boys, for example, do find real communities online—on Discord, for instance—it’s just which communities they find that’s the problem. So yes, mentor, not monitor.Sarah: “Mentor, not monitor.” I like that. That’s helpful.Jo-Ann: Credit to Devorah Heitner.Sarah: I was going to say! Aren’t you friends with Devorah Heitner? I’ve heard her say that. She’s also been on the podcast, and we’ll link to that episode in the show notes.So—what should I have asked you about that I haven’t?Jo-Ann: Maybe some of the terminology. Do parents know what “red-pilling” is?Sarah: Tell us.Jo-Ann: It’s basically the manosphere’s core philosophy. It comes from The Matrix and means “waking up” to feminism’s supposed oppression of men. The “blue pill” represents ignorance—someone who doesn’t realize men are being oppressed. The “black pill” is used by incels, meaning they’ve accepted their “terminal celibacy.”Maybe I should explain who the different groups of the manosphere are.An incel believes men are entitled to sex but aren’t getting it because women deny them—and that women should be punished for that.Then there are Pickup Artists—this is a $100 million global industry led by men who boast about rape and believe it should be legalized on public property. They train men to harass and assault women.Then there are Men’s Rights Activists. They claim to care about men’s issues, but in practice, they focus on attacking women and dismantling feminism—bringing lawsuits to defund sexual violence services or weaken women’s protections.And finally, there’s “Men Going Their Own Way” (MGTOW)—men who believe women are so toxic they have to cut them out of their lives altogether.Sarah: Wow. This is dark stuff.Jo-Ann: It really is.Sarah: It reminds me of that idea that there’s only one pie—if other people get rights, it takes away from yours.Jo-Ann: Exactly. But I believe we can help boys and men see that it’s not a limited pie. They may have to give something up, but they also gain something—relationships, connection, emotional fulfillment.Care work in this culture is so demeaned that men avoid it—but it’s also where so much of women’s connection comes from. Many men’s deathbed regrets are about not having the relationships they wanted.So yes, as women take on more public work, men will have to take on more private work—not more overall, but more equally—and they’ll also gain. Yes, they might have to wash the toilet, but they’ll get more time with their kids, more friendships, more access to their own emotions.Sarah: I remember when our first son was born, my husband hadn’t really taken care of babies before, and I had. I was much more comfortable changing diapers, all that. His first instinct was, “You do that—you’re better at it.” And I said, “This is where all the connection happens—in the caregiving. If you miss out on that, you’ll miss out on the connection.”He was like, “Oh, okay.” I think he was just nervous.Jo-Ann: What a beautiful thing to say to him. That’s so impactful.Sarah: Yeah, because connection was important to him—he wanted that bond with our baby, but he didn’t realize how much of it comes through caregiving.Jo-Ann: Exactly. And you’re reminding me of a statistic: people say women are more nurturing, but research shows proximity changes hormones. When men spend more time caregiving, their “nurturing” hormones increase too.Sarah: I’ve read that! It’s so cool. And it feels good too, right? The oxytocin.Jo-Ann: Yes, exactly.Sarah: Thank you so much. I think this will be really helpful for parents to understand what their kids are being exposed to.Jo-Ann: My pleasure. I’m so glad you’re talking about this—it’s so important.Sarah: I encourage everyone to check out your Substack and your book. We’ll link to both in the show notes. Before I let you go, I ask all my guests this: if you could go back in time to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself?Jo-Ann: Oh boy, so much. I’d tell myself not to get caught up in the competitive stuff. At the time, I thought I wasn’t, but I was. I told myself I wasn’t a good enough mother because I wasn’t baking endless banana bread like my mom did, or because my house wasn’t as neat as someone else’s. But that’s just culture’s way of undermining women and making motherhood a competitive sport—when really, we all just need to have each other’s backs.Sarah: Love that. Thank you so much, Jo-Ann, for coming on. What’s the best place for folks to find you?Jo-Ann: My website is jo-annfinkelstein.com. My Substack is Raising Her Voice—jo-annfinkelstein.substack.com—and I’m also on Instagram and TikTok at jo-annfinkelstein.phd.Sarah: Great. We’ll link to all those in the show notes. Thank you so much.Jo-Ann: Thank you. I really appreciate it. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, we have a coaching call with Laurel and Derrick. This call is such a good one because we cover ALL the big ideas behind the peaceful parenting approach, while applying them to real life scenarios in a home with three kids. Topics include sibling rivalry, nurturing our kids, self regulation, how to handle kids asking lots of questions and always wanting more, what parenting without punishment looks like, and more!**If you’d like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 7:00 What it looks like when our children truly respect us* 9:00 7-year-old refusing to get dressed* 12:10 Why it is okay baby and nurture our kids* 14:00 Tuning into our own self regulation* 18:00 Mindset shifts to give our kids the benefit of the doubt* 19:30 How to handle sibling rivalry* 24:00 Don’t try to make it a teachable moment* 38:00 When kids ask questions over and over* 41:00 Why kids always want more!* 45:00 Helping kids see how their actions affect other people* 55:00 Why kids lie and what to do* 57:00 Natural consequences, boundaries, and limits* 1:02 Peaceful Parenting MantrasResources mentioned in this episode:* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player* The Peaceful Parenting Membership* Free Stop Sibling Fights E book* Free How To Stop Yelling at Your Kids e-coursexx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.Our sponsors:YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can’t go where you don’t want them to go and they aren’t watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HERETranscript:Derrick: Hi, good morning.Sarah: Hi Derek. Nice to meet you. Hi Laurel. Hi. Are you a firefighter, Derek? I’m—yeah, I’m actually—I see you’ve got your sweatshirt.Derrick: Yeah. Just a heads up, I may have to jump off if we get a call.Sarah: Okay. Well, so nice to meet you guys. So you’ve got three—boy, girl, girl. And what would you like to talk about today?Laurel: I think I just love your whole—I’ve sent Derek a couple things—but I just love your whole premise of peacefulness and remaining calm when it’s easy to get angry. Mm-hmm. And just some tools for doing that. I guess like some basic things, because we would both like to say where, you know, we have like, you know, the streaks where we’re all calm, calm, calm, and then just—and then her, yeah, limit. Yeah.And so yeah, just tools for when that happens. We have very typical age-appropriate kind of response kids, mm-hmm, that need to be told 80 times something. And so it’s frustrating. And then how to help them kind of see—without bribing, without threatening discipline, without all of that. Yeah. Like how to have a better dialogue with our kids of teaching respect and teaching kind of “we do this, you do this.”Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, maybe. Okay. So there’s always gonna be situations where it’s hard to stay calm, you know? Just being a parent—like of course your kids are gonna push your buttons sometimes. But rather than—so, we do always start with self-regulation.And what I mean by self-regulation isn’t that you never get upset. It’s that when you do get upset, you know how to calm yourself and take a minute, take a breath—whatever you need to do—so that you don’t yell. Because yelling hurts our relationship with our kids. You mentioned respect. I think there’s an old idea of respect that used to mean that kids were afraid of their parents, right?But real respect is that you care what another person thinks. Like, that’s real respect. I don’t want to do this because I don’t want my dad or my mom to be unhappy with me—not that I’m afraid of what’s gonna happen if I do it, but I care what they think and they care what I think. And that’s how I define respect. True respect doesn’t mean that you’re afraid of somebody; it means that you care what they think, right?So when we yell, we chip away at that. Like yeah, we could get them to do what we want through yelling or threatening things or taking things away, but we’re chipping away at our relationship with them. And that’s really the only true influence.And as your kids are getting older, you’re gonna see that you can control them when they’re little, right? Because you can pick them up and move them from one place to another or whatever. But there’s a famous quote by a psychologist that says, “The problem with using control when kids are young is that you never learn how to influence them, which is what you need as they get older.” Right? You need to be able to influence them, to get them to do what you would like them to do. And it’s all about the relationship. That’s really what I see as the most important thing.So back to what I was saying about yelling—yes, that’s really important to be working on—but there’s also: how do I be more effective so the kids will listen to me and I don’t have to ask 80 times? How do I get their attention in an effective way? How do I get them to cooperate the first time or at least the second time?So it’s a combination of learning how to calm yourself and stay calm when things are hard, and also being more effective as a parent—not asking 25 times, because that just trains them to ignore you. Like, “Oh, I don’t have to do it until they yell,” or “I don’t have to do it until they’ve asked me 25 times.”If there’s something really unpleasant you had to do at work that you didn’t want to do, you might also ignore your boss the first 24 times they asked you until you knew they were really serious, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, you wouldn’t, but you know what I mean. If they can keep playing a little bit longer, they will keep playing a little bit longer.So I think what would be helpful is if you gave me some situations that have happened that you find challenging, and then we can do a little bit of a deeper dive into what you could have done instead, or what you could do next time if a similar thing comes up.Laurel: Yeah. I mean, for my daughter, for example, the middle one—she’s so sweet, she’s such a feeler—but then when she gets to the point where she’s tired, hungry, it’s all the things. She often doesn’t wanna pick out her clothes. Something super simple like that.But when I’m making lunches and the other kids are getting ready and all the things, I just have to have her—I’m like, “You’re seven, you can pick out clothes.” I give her some options, and then she’ll just lay on the floor and start screaming, “You don’t care! Why don’t you pick out my clothes?”And then instead of me taking the time that I know I need to, I just tell her, “You have one minute or else this—so you lose this.” I just start kind of like, “This is yesterday.” You know, so she doesn’t wanna get dressed, doesn’t wanna get her shoes on. “You get my socks, you get all the big—” And then I end up picking her up, standing her up, “You need to get dressed.” And then both of us are frustrated.Sarah: Yeah. No, that’s a great example.So first of all, whenever there’s difficult behavior in our child, we try to look below the surface to see what’s causing it. The symptom you see on the outside is a kid lying on the floor refusing to do something she’s perfectly capable of doing herself. That’s the iceberg part above the water. But what’s underneath that?To me, I’m seeing a 7-year-old who has a 3-year-old sibling who probably does get help getting dressed, a capable older brother, and it’s hard to give enough attention to three kids. What I see this as is a bid for attention and connection from you.I don’t know if you listen to my podcast, but I did an episode about when kids ask you to do things for them that they can do themselves. Seven is a perfect age because you’re like, “Oh my God, you’re so capable of getting dressed yourself—what do you mean you want me to put your shoes on you?” But if you can shift your mind to think, Ah, she’s asking me to do something she can do—she needs my connection and nurturing.So what if you thought, “Okay, I just spent all this energy yelling at her, trying to get her to do it. What if I just gave her the gift of picking her clothes out for her and getting her dressed?” It would probably be quicker, start your day on a happier note, and you would have met that need for connection.And yes, it’s asking more of you in the moment, because you’re trying to make lunches. But this is a beautiful example because you’ll probably see it in other areas too—what’s underneath this difficult behavior? Kids really are doing the best they can. That’s one of our foundational paradigm shifts in peaceful parenting. Even when they’re being difficult, they’re doing the best they can with the resources they have in that moment.So when someone’s being difficult, you can train yourself to think: Okay, if they’re doing the best they can, what’s going on underneath that’s causing this behavior?I just want to say one more thing, because later on you might think, “Wait—Sarah’s telling me to dress my 7-year-old. What about independence?” Just to put your fears aside: kids have such a strong natural drive for independence that you can baby them a little bit and it won’t wreck them. Everybody needs a little babying sometimes—even you guys probably sometimes. Sometimes you just want Laurel to make you a coffee and bring it to you in bed. You can get your own coffee, but it’s nice to be babied and nurtured.So we can do that safely. And I tell you, I have a 14-year-old, 17-year-old, and 20-year-old—very babied—and they’re all super independent and competent kids. My husband used to say, “You’re coddling them.” I’d say, “I’m nurturing them.”Laurel: Oh, I like that.Sarah: Okay. So I just wanted to say that in case the thought comes up later. Independence is important, but we don’t have to push for it.Derrick: Yeah. No, I think that’s super helpful. And I love—one of my good buddies just came out with a book called The Thing Beneath the Thing.Sarah: Oh, I love that.Derrick: It’s such a good reminder. I think sometimes, like you addressed, Laurel is often a single mom and there is the reality of—she’s gotta make lunch, she’s gotta do laundry, she’s gotta whatever. And sometimes there’s just the logistical impossibility of, “I can’t do that and this and get out the door in time and get you to camp on time, and here comes the carpool.”And so sometimes it just feels like there needs to be better planning. Like, “You just gotta wake up earlier, you gotta make lunch before you go to bed, or whatever,” to have the space to respond to the moment. Because the reality is, you never know when it’s coming.Like, totally independent, and she wants to pick out her own clothes in one example—but then all these things creep up.Another way to describe what Laurel and I were talking about in terms of triggers is: I feel like we both really take a long time to light our fuse. But once it’s lit, it’s a very short fuse.Sarah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.Derrick: So it’s like for me especially, I’m cool as a cucumber and then all of a sudden the wick is lit and I’ll explode.Sarah: Yeah. I think that’s really good to be aware of. The thing is, if you go forward from today and start looking—you’re calm, calm, calm, calm, calm—sometimes what’s actually happening is what my mentor calls gathering kindling.We don’t realize it, but we’re gathering kindling along the way—resentment, eye-roll frustration. If you can start tuning in a little bit, you’ll see that yeah, you’re not yelling, but maybe you’re getting more frustrated as it goes on. That’s when you can intervene with yourself, like, “Okay, I need to take a five-minute break,” or, “We need to shift gears or tap each other out.”Because it feels like it comes out of nowhere, but it rarely does. We’re just not aware of the building process of gathering kindling along the way.Derrick: Yeah. No, that’s helpful. I have two examples that maybe you can help us with. You can pick one that you think is more important.Sarah: Sure. And I just want to comment on one more thing you said before you go on—sorry to interrupt you. If it’s annoying to have to dress a 7-year-old in the middle of your morning routine, you can also make a mental note: Okay, what’s under the thing? What’s under the difficult behavior is this need for more connection and nurturing. So how can I fill that at a time that’s more convenient for me?Maybe 7:30 in the morning while I’m trying to get everyone out the door is not a convenient time. But how can I find another time in the day, especially for my middle child? I’ve got three kids too, and I know the middle child can be a bit of a stirring-the-pot kid, at least mine was when he was little, trying to get his needs met. So how can I make sure I’m giving her that time she’s asking for, but in more appropriate times?Derrick: Yeah, no, that’s helpful. I think part of my challenge is just understanding what is age-appropriate. For example, our almost 10-year-old literally cannot remember to flush the toilet.Sarah: Mm-hmm.Derrick: And it’s like, “Bro, flush the toilet.” It’s been this ongoing thing. That’s just one example. There are many things where you’re going, “You’re 10 years old, dude, you should know how to flush the toilet.” And then all the fears come in—“Is he ADD?”—and we start throwing things out there we don’t even know.But it seems so simple: poop in the toilet, you flush it when you’re done. Why is that? And that’ll light a wick pretty quick, the third or fourth time you go in and the toilet’s not flushed.Sarah: Yeah.Derrick: And then you talk about it very peacefully, and he’ll throw something back at you.Sarah: So do you have him go back and flush the toilet?Derrick: We do.Sarah: Okay, good. Because if you make it a tiny bit unpleasant that he forgot—like he has to stop what he’s doing and go back and flush it—that might help him in a kind and firm way. Like, “Oh, looks like you forgot. Pause your video game. Please go back and flush the toilet.”Also, maybe put up some signs or something. By the sink, by the toilet paper. There are just some things that, if they’re not important to kids, it’s very hard for them to remember. Or if it’s not…I can’t tell you how many times I’ve told my boys, “Don’t put wet things in the hamper.” They’re 17 and 20 and it drives me insane. Like how hard is it to not throw a wet washcloth in the hamper? They don’t care if it smells like mildew.Derrick: Yeah.Sarah: It’s very frustrating. But they’re not doing it on purpose.Derrick: That’s the narrative we write though, right? Like, you’re just defiant, you’re trying—because we’ve talked about this a million times. This is my desire.Sarah: And you feel disrespecedt.Derrick: Right.Sarah: That is so insightful of you, Derek, to realize that. To realize that’s a trigger for you because it feels like he’s doing it on purpose to disrespect you. But having that awareness and a mindset shift—he’s not trying to give me a hard time. He’s just absent-minded, he’s 10, and he doesn’t care if the poop sits in the toilet. He’s just not thinking about it.Derrick: Yeah.I think the other example, which I’m sure is super common, is just: how do you manage them pushing each other’s buttons? They can do it so quickly. And then it’s literally musical chairs of explosive reactions. It happens everywhere. You’re driving in the car, button pushed, explosion. The 3-year-old’s melting, and Kira knows exactly what she’s doing. Then Blake, then Kira. They just know. They get so much joy out of watching their sibling melt and scream. Meanwhile, you’re in the front seat trying to drive and it’s chaos.For me, that’s when I’ll blow my top. I’ll get louder than their meltdown. And my narrative is: they’re not even really upset, they’re just turning it on to get whatever they want.Sarah: Classic sibling rivalry. Classic. Like, “How can I get Mom or Dad to show that they love me more than the other kid? Whose side are they gonna intervene on?” That’s so classic.Kira came along and pushed Blake out of his preferred position as the baby and the apple of your eye. He had to learn to share you. Is it mostly Kira and Aubrey, or does everything roll downhill with all three?Derrick: It just triangulates and crosses over. They know each other’s buttons. And you’re right—it’s always, “You always take her side. You never—”Sarah: Yes. And whenever you hear the words “always” and “never,” you know someone’s triggered. They’re not thinking clearly because they’re upset and dysregulated.Sibling rivalry, or resentment, whatever you want to call it, is always about: “Who do they love more? Will my needs get met? Do they love me as much as my brother or sister?” That fear is what drives the button-pushing.It doesn’t make sense that you’d pick a fight hoping your parent will choose you as the one who’s right. But still, it’s this drive to create conflict in hopes that you’ll be the chosen one.So I could go over my sibling best practices with you guys if you want. That’s really helpful for rivalry.Derrick: Yeah.Sarah: Okay. Do you currently have any rules about property or sharing in your house?Laurel: Not officially. I mean—Derrick: We typically will say stuff like, “That’s Kira’s. If she doesn’t want to share it with you, give it back.” But the problem is we have so much community property.Sarah: Okay. That’s what I call it: community property. Yeah. So you’re doing exactly the right thing with things that belong to one person. They never have to share it if they don’t want to, and other people have to ask before they touch it. Perfect.And in terms of community property, I’d suggest you have a rule: somebody gets to use something until they’re done. Period. Long turns.I didn’t know this when my kids were little, and I had ridiculous song-and-dance with timers—“Okay, you can have it for 10 minutes and then you can have it for 10 minutes.” But that actually increases anxiety. You want to relax into your play, not feel like, “Oh, I’ve only got this for 10 minutes.”So if it belongs to everyone, the person using it gets to use it as long as they want. And you empathize with the other person: “Oh, I know your brother’s been playing with that pogo stick for an hour. It’s so hard to wait, isn’t it? When it’s your turn, you’ll have it as long as you want.”So if you have good sharing rules and community property rules right off the bat, you take away a lot of opportunities for resentment to build upDerrick: My biggest question is just how do you intervene when those rules are violated?Sarah: You just calmly say something like, “Oh, I know you really, really wanna play with the pogo stick. You cannot push your brother off of it just because you want a turn.” I’m just making things up here, but the idea is: you can’t push your brother off just because you want something. Then you go back to the family rules. You could even make a sign—I actually have one I can send you to print out—that says, “In our family, we get to use it as long as we want.”And then you empathize with the aggressor about how hard it is to wait. Keep going back to the rules and offering lots of empathy. If someone’s being difficult, recognize that they’re having a hard time.Laurel, when Derrick said, “You always…” or “You never…,” anytime you hear words like that, you know somebody’s hijacked by big feelings. That’s not the time to make it a teachable moment. Just empathize with the hard time they’re having. Nobody ever wants to calm down until they feel empathized with, acknowledged, and heard. You can always talk about it later if something needs to be discussed, but in the moment of heightened tension, just acknowledge feelings: “Oh my goodness, you were doing this thing and then your brother came and took it. This is so hard.”I also have a little ebook with these best practices laid out—I’ll send it to you.The third best practice is: always be the moderator, not the negotiator. If there’s a fight between the kids, your goal is to help them talk to each other. Don’t try to solve it or say who’s right or wrong. Even if you’re right and careful not to favor one child, your solution will always fuel sibling rivalry. The child who wasn’t chosen feels slighted, and the one who was chosen might think, “Dad loves me best.”So my phrase is: “Be Switzerland.” Stay neutral, intervene in a neutral way, and help them talk to each other. Give each child a chance to speak. Do you want to give me an example we can walk through?Derrick: A lot of times it’s not even about taking, it’s about disrupting. Aubrey has this baby doll she’s obsessed with. She carries it everywhere—it looks really real, kind of creepy. Blake will walk by, pull the pacifier out of its mouth, and throw it across the room. Instant meltdown. His thing is, he knows the rules and how to toe the line. He’ll say, “I didn’t take the baby, I just disrupted it.”Sarah: Right, right.Derrick: And then, “Deal with it.”Sarah: Yeah, okay. So that’s not exactly a “be Switzerland” moment, because it’s not a two-way fight. He’s just provoking his sister to get a rise out of her. That’s classic sibling rivalry. It also sounds like he worries you don’t love him as much as his sisters. Does he ever say that out loud?Laurel: He has sometimes. His other big thing is he doesn’t have a brother, but they have each other. He constantly brings that up.Sarah: That’s what I call a chip on his shoulder. When he provokes her like that, it’s because he has feelings inside that make him act out. He’s not a bad kid; he’s having a hard time. Picking fights is often an attempt to get rid of difficult feelings. If we have a bad day and don’t process it, we might come home cranky or pick a fight—it’s not about the other person, it’s about us.So I’d suggest having some heart-to-hearts with Blake, maybe at bedtime. Give him space to process. Say, “It must be really hard to have two little sisters and be the only boy. I bet you wish you had a brother.” Or, “I wonder if it’s hard to share me and mom with your sisters. I wonder if it’s hard being the oldest.” Share your own stories: “I remember when I was growing up, it was hard to be the big sister.” Or Derrick, you could share what it was like for your older sibling.The same goes for Kira: “It must be hard being in the middle—your big brother gets to do things you can’t, and your little sister gets babied more.” The point is to let them express their feelings so they don’t have to act them out by provoking.That provocative behavior is just difficult feelings looking for a way out. Your role is to open the door for those feelings. Say things like, “I know this must be hard. I hear you. You can always talk to me about your feelings. All your feelings are okay with me.” And you have to mean it—even if they say things like, “I wish they didn’t exist,” or, “I wish you never had that baby.” That’s totally normal. Don’t be afraid of it. Resist the urge to offer silver linings like, “But sometimes you play so well together.” It’s not time for optimism—it’s time for listening and acknowledging.You can also say, “I’m sorry if I ever did anything that made you feel like I didn’t love you as much as your sisters. I couldn’t love anyone more than I love you.” You can say that to each child without lying, because it’s true. That reassurance goes to the root of sibling rivalry.Derrick: That’s really helpful. I’d love your insight on some of the things we’re already doing. Lately, I’ve realized I spend more time in the girls’ room at bedtime. Blake has his own room. He’s more self-sufficient—he can read and put himself to sleep. For the past year, I’ve been reading in the girls’ room instead, since they need more wrangling. So I’ve tried to switch that and spend more time in Blake’s room reading with him. We’ve also started doing “mom dates” or “dad dates” with each kid.Sarah: That’s perfect! My final best practice is one-on-one time. You’re on the right track. It doesn’t have to be a “date.” Special Time is 15 minutes a day with each child, right at home. You don’t need to go to the aquarium or spend money. Just say, “I’m all yours for the next 15 minutes—what do you want to play?” Try to keep it play-centered and without screens.Laurel: Sometimes when we call it a “mommy date,” it turns into something big. That makes it hard to do consistently.Sarah: Exactly. You can still do those, but Special Time is smaller and daily. Fifteen minutes is manageable. With little ones, you might need to get creative—for example, one parent watches two kids while the other has Special Time with the third. You could even “hire” Blake to watch Aubrey for a few minutes so you can have time with Kira.Laurel: That makes sense. I did think of an example, though. What frustrates me most isn’t sharing, but when they’re unkind to each other. I harp on them about family sticking together and being kind. For example, last week at surf camp, both kids had zinc on their faces—Blake was orange, Kira was purple. She was so excited and bubbly that morning, which is unusual for her. In front of neighbor friends, Blake made fun of her purple face. It devastated her. I laid into him, telling him he’s her protector and needs to be kind. I don’t want to be too hard on him, but I also want him to understand.Sarah: Based on everything we’ve talked about, you can see how coming down hard on him might make him feel bad about himself and worry that you don’t love him—fueling even more resentment. At the same time, of course we don’t want siblings hurting each other’s feelings. This is where empathic limits come in.You set the limit—“It’s not okay to tease your sister because it hurts her feelings”—but you lead with his perspective. You might say, “Hey, I know people with color on their faces can look funny, and maybe you thought it was just a joke. At the same time, that really made your sister feel bad.” That way, you correct him without making him feel like a bad kid.Do you think he was trying to be funny, or was he trying to hurt her?Laurel: I think he was. He’ll also reveal secrets or crushes in front of friends—he knows it’s ammo.Sarah: Right. In that situation, I’d first empathize with Kira: “I’m so sorry your brother said that—it never feels good to be laughed at.” Then privately with Blake: “What’s going on with you that you wanted to make your sister feel bad?” Come at it with curiosity, assuming he’s doing the best he can. If he says, “I was just joking,” you can respond, “We need to be more careful with our jokes so they’re not at anyone’s expense.” That’s correcting without shaming.Laurel: I love that. Sometimes I’m trying to say that, but not in a peaceful way, so he can’t receive it. Then he asks, “Am I a bad kid?” and I have to backtrack.Sarah: Exactly—skip the part that makes him feel like a bad kid. Sensitive kids don’t need much correction—they already feel things deeply. Just get curious.Laurel: That makes sense. Correcting without shaming.Sarah: Yes.Laurel: We also tried something new because of the constant questions. They’ll keep asking: “Can I do this? Can I watch a show?” We got tired of repeating no. So now we say, “I don’t know yet. Let me think about it. But if you ask again, the answer will be no.” Is that okay?Sarah: I used to say, “If I have to give a quick answer, it’s going to be no.” I’d also say, “You can ask me as many times as you want, but the answer will still be no.” With empathy: “I know it’s hard to hear no, but it’s still no.” Another thing I said was, “It would be so much easier for me to say yes. But I love you enough to say no.” That helped my kids see it wasn’t easy for me either.Laurel: That’s helpful. Another thing: our kids do so much—they’re busy and around people a lot, partly because of our personalities and being pastors. We try to build in downtime at home, but often after a fun day they complain on the way home: “Why do we have to go to bed?” They don’t reflect on the fun—they just want more.Sarah: That’s totally normal. You could go to an amusement park, eat pizza and ice cream, see a movie, and if you say no to one more thing, they’ll say, “We never do anything fun!” Kids are wired to want more. That’s evolutionary: quiet kids who didn’t ask for needs wouldn’t survive. Wanting isn’t a problem, and it doesn’t mean they’ll turn into entitled adults.Kids live in the moment. If you say no to ice cream, they fixate on that, not the whole day. So stay in the moment with them: “You really wanted ice cream. I know it’s disappointing we’re not having it.” Resist the urge to say, “But we already did all these things.”Laurel: I love that. We even started singing “Never Enough” from The Greatest Showman, and now they hate it. It feels like nothing is ever enough.Sarah: That’s normal.Laurel: I also want to bring it back to peaceful, no-fear parenting. I can be hard on myself, and I see that in my kids. I don’t want that.Sarah: If you don’t want your kids to be hard on themselves, model grace for yourself. Say, “I messed up, but I’m still worthy and lovable.” Being hard on yourself means you only feel lovable when you don’t make mistakes. We want our kids to know they’re lovable no matter what—even when they mess up or bother their siblings. That’s true self-worth: being lovable because of who you are, not what you do. That’s what gives kids the courage to take risks and not stay small out of fear of failure. They’ll learn that from your modeling.Laurel: That makes sense.Sarah: And I’ve never, ever seen anyone do this work without being compassionate with themselves.Laurel: Hmm. Like—Sarah: You can’t beat yourself up and be a peaceful parent.Laurel: Yeah, I know. Because then I’d see them doing it. It’s like, no, I don’t. Yeah. Yeah. I purposely don’t want you guys to be that way. Yeah. That’s great. Those are all good things to think about. I think the other questions I can tie back to what you’ve already answered, like being disrespectful or sassiness creeping in—the talking back kind of stuff. And that’s all from, I mean, it stems from not feeling heard, not feeling empathized with.Sarah: Totally. And being hijacked by big feelings—even if it’s your own big feelings of not getting what you want. That can be overwhelming and send them into fight, flight, or freeze. Sassiness and backtalk is the fight response. It’s the mild fight. They’re not screaming, hitting, or kicking, but just using rude talk.Laurel: Hmm. And so same response as a parent with that too? Just be in the moment with their feelings and then move on to talking about why and letting them kind of—Sarah: Yeah. And empathizing. Just like, “Ah, you’re really…” Say they’re saucy about you not letting them have some ice cream. “You never let me have ice cream! This is so unfair! You’re so mean!” Whatever they might say. You can respond, “Ugh, I know, it’s so hard. You wish you could have all the ice cream in the freezer. You’d eat the whole carton if you could.” Just recognize what they’re feeling. It doesn’t have to be a teachable moment about sugar or health. You can just be with them in their hard time about not getting what they want. And they’ll get through to the other side—which builds resilience.Laurel: How do you discipline when it’s needed—not punish, but discipline? For example, a deliberate rule is broken, somebody gets hurt, or stealing—like when it’s clear they know it was wrong?Sarah: You want to help them see how their actions affect other people, property, or the community. That’s where they internalize right and wrong. If you give them a punishment for breaking something, that only teaches them how their actions affect them—not how their actions affect others. That makes kids think, “What’s in it for me? I better not do this thing because I don’t want to get in trouble,” instead of, “I better not do this because it will hurt my sister or disappoint my parents.” So punishments and imposed consequences pull kids away from the real consequences—like someone getting hurt or trust being broken.You really want to help them understand: “The reason why we have this rule is because of X, Y, Z. And when you did this, here’s what happened.” If they have a problem with the rule, talk about it together as a family. That works much better than punishment.Laurel: We had an incident at church where our 10-year-old was talking about something inappropriate with another kid. The other parent reached out, and I feel like we handled it okay. We talked with him, he was open, and we discussed what was said. Then we apologized to that parent in person and had a conversation. It didn’t feel like we were forcing him to do something bad or shaming him.Sarah: That’s good—it’s about making a repair. That’s always the focus. Without knowing the whole situation, I might not have said apologizing to the parent, because technically the parent wasn’t directly involved. But if your son was willing and it felt authentic, that’s great. What matters is the outcome: repair. Sometimes parents suggest an apology to make the child feel ashamed so they’ll “remember it,” but that’s not helpful. The question is: does the apology or repair actually improve the situation? That’s what you keep in mind.Laurel: Well, thanks for all your wisdom.Sarah: You’re welcome. It was really nice to meet you both.Part 2:Sarah: Welcome back, Laurel and Derek. Thanks for joining again. How have things been since our first coaching call?Laurel: Yeah. I feel like we gained several really good nuggets that we were able to try. One of them was about my daughter in the mornings—not wanting to get dressed, feeling stuck in the middle and left out. I’ve gotten to stop what I’m doing and pay attention to her. Even this morning, she still had a meltdown, but things went faster by the end compared to me being stubborn and telling her to do it on her own.Sarah: So you dropped your end of the power struggle.Laurel: Yeah. And it felt great because I wasn’t frustrated afterward. I could move on right away instead of also blowing up. If we both blow up, it’s bad. But if she’s the only one, she can snap out of it quickly. I can’t as easily, so it usually lingers for me. This way, it was so much better.We’ve had some challenging parenting moments this week, but looking at them through the lens of making our kids feel worthy and loved helped us respond differently. One thing you said last time—that “the perpetrator needs empathy”—really stuck with me. I always felt like the misbehaving child should feel our wrath to show how serious it was. But we were able to love our kids through a couple of tough situations, and it worked.Derrick: For me, the biggest takeaway was the “kindling” metaphor. I’ve even shared it with friends. Before, I thought I was being patient, but I was just collecting kindling until I blew up. Now I recognize the kindling and set it down—take a breath, or tell the kids I need a minute. This morning on the way to soccer, I told them I needed a little pity party in the front seat before I could play their game. That helped me calm before reengaging.Sarah: That’s fantastic. You recognized you needed to calm yourself before jumping back in, instead of pushing through already-annoyed feelings.Laurel: Yeah. We did have questions moving forward. We had a couple of situations where we knew our kids were lying about something significant. We told them, “We love you, and we need you to tell the truth.” But they denied it for days before finally giving in. How do we encourage truth-telling and open communication?Sarah: Kids usually lie for three reasons: they’re afraid of getting in trouble, they feel ashamed or embarrassed, or they’re afraid of disappointing you. Sometimes it’s all three. So the focus has to be: we might be unhappy with what you did, but we’ll just work on fixing it. When they do admit the truth, it’s important to say, “I’m so glad you told me.” That helps remove shame.Natural consequences happen without your involvement. If they take money from your wallet, the natural consequence is that you’re missing money and trust is broken. But adding punishments just teaches them to hide better next time.Derrick: How do you frame the difference between a consequence and a boundary? Like if they mess up in an environment and we don’t let them back into it for a while—is that a consequence or a boundary?Sarah: In peaceful parenting, we talk about limits. If they show they’re not ready for a certain freedom, you set a limit to support them—not to punish. A consequence is meant to make them feel bad so they won’t repeat it. A limit is about guidance and support.The way to tell: check your tone and your intent. If you’re angry and reactive, it will feel punishing even if it’s not meant to be. And if your intent is to make them suffer, that’s a punishment. If your tone is empathetic and your intent is to support expectations, it’s a limit.Derrick: That’s helpful. Sometimes we beat ourselves up wondering if we’re punishing when we’re just setting limits. Your tone-and-intent framework is a good check.Sarah: And if you mess up in the moment, you can always walk it back. Say, “I was really angry when I said that. Let’s rethink this.” That models responsibility for when we act out while triggered.Derrick: That’s good.Sarah: You mentioned sibling rivalry last time. Did you try the “It’s theirs until they’re done with it” approach?Derrick: Yes—and it’s like a miracle. It worked especially in the car.Sarah: That’s great. I know car rides were tricky before.Laurel: What about mantras to help us remember not to let our kids’ behavior define us as parents—or as people?Sarah: What you’re talking about is shame. It’s when we feel unworthy because of our kids’ behavior or what others think. We have to separate our worth from our kids’ actions. Even if your child is struggling, you’re still a good, worthy, lovable person.Laurel: Almost the same thing we say to our kids: “You are worthy and lovable.”Sarah: Exactly. So when you feel yourself going into a shame spiral, remind yourself: “Even though my child did this thing, I am still worthy and lovable.” Hold both truths together.Laurel: Yes. That helps. One last question: mornings. School starts in a day, and we worry every morning will be a struggle with Kira. She resists everything—getting dressed, socks, breakfast. Then she’s fine once we’re in the car. How can we help her set her own boundaries about mornings?Sarah: It sounds like she gets anxious around transitions. She doesn’t do well with being hurried. That anxiety overwhelms her, and she goes into fight mode—pushing back, lashing out.Laurel: Yes, that’s exactly it.Sarah: So part of it is adjusting your routine—giving her more time in the morning. But another part is building resilience. The anti-anxiety phrase is: “We can handle this.” Remind her, “Even if it’s not going how you wanted, you can handle it. We can do hard things.” Add in laughter to ease tension.And maybe accept that for now, you might need to spend 10 minutes helping her get dressed. That’s okay. You can balance it by giving her extra nurturing at other times of the day so she doesn’t seek it as much during rushed mornings.Derrick: That’s good.Sarah: Thank you both so much. I’ve loved these conversations.Derrick: Thank you, Sarah.Sarah: You’re welcome. It’s been wonderful. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I have a conversation with Devon Kuntzman, an ICF-certified coach and author of the new book Transforming Toddlerhood. We cover why toddlers are so misunderstood, and how to work with our toddlers by better understanding their needs and development. Tune in to learn better ways to work through car seat struggles, diaper changes, tooth brushing, throwing things, and more!**If you’d like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! > > If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 7:10 Why do toddlers have such a bad reputation?!* 10:00 Contractionary needs of toddlers* 11:00 What hard toddler behaviours are totally normal?* 13:00 Nuance around “limit setting” and power struggles* 19:30 Having unrealistic expectations for our toddlers* 24:00 Understanding crying* 29:00 Toddlers need for movement and bodily autonomy* 30:00 Car seat struggles* 31:15 Refusing diaper changes* 32:00 Tooth brushing* 35:00 Throwing things* 38:00 The problems with Time OutsResources mentioned in this episode:* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player* The Peaceful Parenting Membership* Transforming Toddlerhood: How to Handle Tantrums, End Power Strugglers, and Raise Resilient Kids --- Without Losing your Mind * Devon’s website xx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, "Weekend Reflections" and "Weekend Support" - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for a third year). All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.Our sponsors:YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can’t go where you don’t want them to go and they aren’t watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HEREInterview transcript:Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Devon Kuntzman, who is an expert on all things toddler. We discussed why toddlers get a bad rap—why they can be really challenging—and what’s going on with them developmentally. Devon has so much insight into how to understand your toddler better, and therefore how to make life with them easier by knowing how to support them.We also talked about mysterious toddler behavior, and I asked her the questions I get most from you—what to do in tricky situations like car seats, teeth brushing, diapers, and more. You are going to finish this episode with a deeper understanding of your toddler and a deeper appreciation of these wondrous and sometimes challenging little beings.Even if you don’t have a toddler anymore, you might find it interesting—as I did—to understand in hindsight exactly why they acted the way they did. And if you don’t have a toddler anymore but you do know someone with a toddler—that’s ages one through four—send this podcast on over to them. I’m sure they’re going to find it really, really helpful. Devon is just wonderful.Okay, let’s meet Devon.Sarah: Hey Devon, welcome to the podcast.Devon: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.Sarah: Me too. I’m so excited to talk about your new book that’s coming out. But before we dive into that, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?Devon: Yes. So, I am Devon Kuntzman, and I’m an ICF certified coach, toddler expert, and the founder of Transforming Toddlerhood. I’m also a mama to a toddler and now an author with a book coming out October 21st called Transforming Toddlerhood as well.I really started Transforming Toddlerhood in 2018 to dispel the myth that toddlerhood is terrible. Yes, toddlerhood is very, very challenging developmentally for so many reasons, but it’s also a critical developmental period. If we just go into it white-knuckling it, bracing ourselves for the worst, we actually start to miss the magic of this developmental period and the opportunity to set our kids up for success in the long run.The first five years of life set the foundation for brain development and social-emotional development for years to come.Sarah: I love that. And actually, I love the toddler stage. I know a lot of people find it really challenging, and I can see why, but also, as you said, it is really magical. They’re such interesting little creatures, and I just love that stage.So, your book is coming out October 21st, and we would encourage anyone listening to pre-order it. I was so excited to read your book because, when I was reading it, I was thinking, “You know what this is? It’s like a perfect peaceful parenting primer, except everything is focused on this age group.”There are a lot of great peaceful parenting books out there, but they don’t focus on this age group. And this age group is so specific. I don’t know if that’s what you were intending to write when you wrote it. If you weren’t intending to, I think that’s what you did.Devon: Yes. The reason I wrote this book is because we have so many parenting books out there—amazing books that talk about peaceful parenting, respectful parenting, and all of these things. But none of them are truly tailored to the toddler years.At the same time, I have parents DMing me every day asking me so many different questions, and I can see the desperation of these parents. They’re searching on Instagram, they’re Googling, they’re trying to find the answers to these very real, challenging problems in their lives. And there wasn’t just one place to go to get all of these answers.That’s why I wrote Transforming Toddlerhood. It’s an all-in-one, comprehensive, easy-to-read guide that truly covers just about every challenge you might have throughout toddlerhood. Whether it’s healthy, developmentally appropriate discipline, being on a different page from your parenting partner, your child whining, struggling with parental preference, or introducing a new sibling—I really cover everything in this book.I wanted parents to have a place they could go to get quick answers that were trusted, so they didn’t have to search everywhere for them.Sarah: Yeah, you absolutely did it. You succeeded at your goal. I get lots of questions about toddlers too—in my coaching and in my communities—and every single one of the questions that I get was in the book. That was great.So, I encourage people to go out and get it. I’m actually going to order a copy for my husband’s cousin and his wife. They have a little girl who’s about 15 or 16 months now, so it’ll be perfect for them.Devon: Perfect.Sarah: So, toddlers—as you mentioned before—have a bad rap, right? You know, the “terrible twos,” the “horrible threes,” or whatever people call them. Why do you think that is? And maybe tell us a little bit about what’s going on developmentally. I think those two answers are probably connected.Devon: I am so excited to answer this question, because this is a question I always ask everyone who comes on my annual summit. And I’m so excited to get to answer it myself.I really feel that toddlerhood is so challenging for parents because it’s the first time your child is realizing that they’re a separate entity from you. And at the same time, you’re realizing your child is a separate entity from you as well.The whole point of toddlerhood is for your child to become their own separate individual. And the way they do that is through behaviors that delineate a line between your toddler and yourself. They’re going to say “no.” They’re going to push back. They’re going to have their own agenda.We start seeing this even as early as nine months old, with a child who doesn’t want to get their diaper changed. Or you have a 12-month-old—you ask them to come over, they laugh and run the other direction. Or you have a 14-month-old who thinks you’re moving too slowly, or doesn’t like what you’re doing, and then they hit you on the head.It’s really the first time we move out of a purely caregiving role into what I like to call a really active parenting role, where we have to decide how we’re going to respond to these behaviors.I think the bigger challenge is that we’re looking at these behaviors through a logical lens with fully mature brains. So, we label these behaviors as bad or wrong. But really, all the behaviors that drive us crazy are developmentally appropriate behaviors for toddlers.Because of that mismatch—between our expectations of what we think is typical and what our toddlers are actually doing—it creates a lot of frustration. It creates fear spiraling: “Are they always going to be this way? Is my child going to grow up to be a bully?” X, Y, Z. All of that makes parenting this age group really, really challenging.Sarah: Yeah, I was just talking to someone this morning who has a 2-year-old and a new baby—which, of course, as you know, exacerbates the challenges of toddlers when you’re adding to your family.I have noticed anecdotally that people tend to think two or three are the hardest years, and it almost always comes back to when they had their next child. If they had them two years apart, they found two harder. If they had them three years apart, they found three harder.This mom was just telling me about some struggles, and I said, “Yeah, your daughter is at that stage where she has her own ideas about things she would like to do or have. And it’s combined with a lack of logic, perspective, and brain development.” It’s like a perfect storm: “I know what I want, but I don’t have any experience in life or brain development to be able to express it in a different way.”Devon: Yes, exactly. And another challenge that’s really happening in toddlerhood—which comes through in their behavior—is this idea of contradictory needs.As I was saying, your toddler is trying to become their own person. They want to be independent. They’re developmentally driven to have a sense of control, feel capable, and exert their will. But at the same time, they’re highly reliant on the adults in their life to meet their social and physical needs.So even though these developmental needs are so strong, they still need you—that safe and secure base—to help meet their emotional and physical needs. Toddlers are constantly trying to balance these opposing needs, and that really comes out in contradictory, challenging behavior that can drive us crazy.Sarah: Yeah, I love that. I remember that so well—that “I want to do it by myself. No, I want you to do it for me.” The contradictory needs. That’s such a beautiful way to put it.Devon: Yeah.Sarah: What is something you hear all the time that you find yourself saying, “Oh, that’s totally normal for toddlers”? What’s something parents don’t know is normal, but you find yourself reassuring them that it is?Devon: Yes. Basically, the behaviors we as adults really don’t like, that we think are inappropriate. Yes, in our logical, fully mature adult brains, hitting, biting, throwing, kicking, screaming, crying—all of these things—feel wrong.But if you think about it, babies’ only way of communicating is to cry. Then, as toddlers start to grow, they go through a lot of physical development. They start communicating through their behaviors.For example, if you have a toddler throwing food from their high chair at 15 or 18 months old, they might be experimenting with cause and effect: “If I drop this food, what happens? Does the dog pick it up? How do my parents respond?” They’re experimenting and exploring, which is very appropriate.Or take hitting and biting. Toddlers, especially one- and two-year-olds, cannot say, “I don’t like this. I’m feeling frustrated.” So instead, they hit you or bite you.I just want parents to know: behavior is not good or bad. We have to step away from that dichotomous lens. Behavior is communication. Once we understand that, we can ask: “What skill does my child need to learn to be successful here?” instead of “What punishment do I need to give to make them listen or to teach them a lesson?”Sarah: Yes—or not only, “What skill?” but also, “What support does my child need to meet my expectation?” Right? Because sometimes the skill’s not going to come for a long time with a toddler. But the support is something you can give them.Devon: I love that. This comes up a lot—the idea of “My toddler’s not listening to me.” We set the limit, and then we expect our toddlers to just fall in line, follow through, and listen.But the truth is, we need to ask: “What support does my toddler need to meet this limit I’m setting?” We often think saying the limit is the end of our job, but it’s actually the beginning.Setting the limit is step one. Then we have to help our kids follow through on that limit—especially the younger they are or the more unmet needs they have in that moment. If they’re tired, hungry, overstimulated—then they’re going to need even more help to follow through.Sarah: Yes. And I’m going to jump ahead in my list of questions. I was going to ask you about power struggles later, but I want to ask now since you just mentioned limits.I find parents sometimes get too hung up on limits—not that limits aren’t important, because they are—but they often get too attached to their own sense of what the limit should be.I love that when you were writing about power struggles, you suggested starting with the question: “What’s the goal here?” I’d love for you to talk about power struggles and limits through that lens. Because, as I mentioned this morning to a parent of a 2-year-old, there’s so much a 2-year-old has no control over in their life. We want to think about how we can be flexible about the rest.So maybe just talk about your lens of power struggles a little bit, starting with that “What’s the goal here?” I love that.Devon: Oh my gosh, I have so much to say on this subject.When we ask ourselves, “What’s the goal here?” the main thing to consider is: are we trying to win? Because if you’re battling your toddler to win, then you’ve probably lost sight of the bigger picture—which is: How do you want to show up as a parent? What relationship are you trying to create? What support are you trying to give your child? What skills do they need to learn?When we get caught up in trying to win, we’re in our stress response. The more committed we get to winning, the more tightly we get locked in the power struggle. And then everyone’s just on their own emotional roller coaster.The reality is, it takes two people to be in a power struggle. And if you’re waiting for your toddler to suddenly say, “Oh, just kidding, I’ll do what you want,” you’ll be waiting a long time. Toddlers are developmentally driven to exert their will and be their own person. They’re likely to double down.And toddlers can be really persistent. So we have to zoom out and think about the bigger picture. Instead of being so attached to one way of doing something, we can pivot in an empowered way.That might mean moving forward and letting your toddler follow you. Maybe it’s giving them a choice between two things within your boundaries. Maybe it’s saying, “When you brush your teeth (or pick up this toy), then we can go outside (or read a book).”There are so many different tools we can use to pivot out of power struggles. Because quite frankly, we’re the adults. We have to be the leaders and guides in these moments. Our toddlers aren’t going to suddenly say, “Oh, just kidding, sorry.”Sarah: Yes. And the other thing I’ve been thinking about a lot lately is, if we’re not modeling flexibility, how are our kids going to learn it? If we can’t be flexible as parents, then how will our kids learn to be flexible?So often parents say, “My kid is so rigid, they’re not flexible at all.” And then you listen to the parent a little, and it sounds like they’re also being pretty rigid with their child.I think finding those graceful sidesteps—what you’re talking about—is so important. It’s not about someone winning and someone losing, but about how we can still get to the goal we’re trying to reach.Devon: Exactly. And this is a very Montessori-aligned thought: we as parents have to create the container, the foundation. But within those boundaries, there are a million ways something can happen and get done.So, we can give our child freedom within the boundaries. Of course they still need our guidance, but the key is to avoid backing out in a way that says, “Fine, you win.” Instead, we ask: how can we give them a sense of control within our boundaries? That way their developmental need for autonomy is met, while we’re still in charge overall.Sarah: Okay. Going back to expectations—one thing I read in your book really struck me. You cited research showing that half of parents believe kids are capable of self-control and milestones earlier than they actually are.I find that too—parents’ expectations are often way too high for the age their child is, or for where they are developmentally.So, how do you know if your expectations are out of whack? And what happens—what are the negative things that can happen—when they are?Devon: I always say we typically underestimate our child’s physical abilities and overestimate their social-emotional capabilities and impulse control.There’s a lot of research and polls showing this is the case. And when we hold unrealistic expectations, we get really frustrated, because we think our toddler is being “bad,” doing something they shouldn’t be doing developmentally.Then we turn it inward: “I must be doing a bad job. I’m messing up.”The best way to know if your expectations are appropriate is by looking at your child’s behavior over time—over several days or a week. What’s really happening in those moments? If you see a consistent pattern, you can start to say, “Okay, maybe I’m asking too much of my child.”That doesn’t mean you just throw the expectation out the window and say, “Too bad, I’ll try again next year.” It means they need more support.So you scaffold the skill. For example, something like getting dressed takes a lot of planning and coordination. It’s a skill that needs to be built over time. We need to start transferring those skills to our children—with our support.So when your expectations are too big, you don’t throw them out completely. You ask: how can I support my child to get where I need them to be?Sarah: Yeah. I always talk about when there’s the gap between your expectations and the reality, a lot of conventional parenting is like, “Okay, well what threat or consequence do I need to close that gap?” But I always think about just like, what support do we need to close the gap between the expectations and reality?And of course, sometimes I think you do—there is a place for throwing expectations out the window. Because sometimes they’re so far off that it’s better to let go of the expectation than to try to get your kid to do it.Or, you know, I think resources can go up and down. One day your kid might be able to do something, and the next day their resources might be a lot lower and they can’t manage. We have to be flexible.Devon: For the parent too. There are going to be days when we’re more resourced, and days when we didn’t sleep well. Maybe our toddler was up at 2:00 AM and we’re tired. There are days when we just feel like there’s too much to do and not enough time. Days when we have our own feelings, emotions, and needs that need attention, and there’s not a lot of space for that.That’s where we really just need to have compassion for ourselves and for our toddlers, and really give each other the benefit of the doubt—knowing that we’re doing the best that we can. Then we can start working from that place: right now, we’re doing the best we can in this moment. What’s the next step to getting where we need to be?I didn’t mention this in the book, but something I talk about a lot with my private clients is that oftentimes we want to jump from A to Z. And that’s a really big leap, right? We want to leap across the Grand Canyon, when really what we want to do is step across on stepping stones. Move from A to B, B to C, C to D. That’s how we eventually get to where we need to be.This is true across the board when we’re thinking about expectations, skills, and things of that nature. So when we don’t try to do it all at once, we’re going to have more realistic expectations and we’re going to be less frustrated.Sarah: Yeah.Devon: That makes so much sense.Sarah: I love also that you really, in the book, normalize toddler behavior. You mentioned before, throwing—and at one point, as I was reading your book, I wondered, “I wonder if she’s going to talk about play schemas.” And then you had the section on play schemas.So much of what toddlers do, parents just don’t know is normal. Like you were talking about throwing food off the highchair. I always remind parents of the trajectory schema—how does the food move through space, or what happens when I drop this, and learning about gravity.Speaking of normalizing, one of the things that I loved in your book was when you talked about avoiding positive dismissiveness. I loved how you addressed that—when parents say that kids are crying for no reason. Can you talk about that a little bit, what to avoid, and what to do instead?Devon: Yeah. I decided to dedicate a chapter to crying because crying is such an important communication tool for kids. Beyond that, research shows that crying is actually beneficial to our bodies. It helps release hormones that make us feel better.So crying serves a lot of purposes. When we look at crying as “fake crying” or “crying for no reason,” it really shortchanges a normal biological process, a normal way of communication for young children. It also dismisses a child’s needs.Now, I will tell you, it is hard to hear your child cry. It is so hard. I had a baby that cried for hours on end—I’m talking five-plus hours a day. So I’ve heard my fair share of crying, probably enough for ten lifetimes.It’s really hard for me, even now with my toddler, to hear him cry. But knowing that you’re not a bad parent and there’s nothing wrong if your child is crying—that this is actually an emotional release—is super helpful.We don’t want our kids to shove it down. Instead of saying, “You’re fine, you’re fine”—which usually comes from a good place, because we just want our kids to feel better—we can say things like, “That must have been hard,” or, “That was unexpected,” or, “Oh, you fell down and scraped your knee. I’m sorry that happened.”This creates emotional connection and helps build emotional resilience.Sarah: I love that. Listeners to this podcast will have heard me talk a lot about emptying the emotional backpack. That’s what you’re talking about too—crying might not even be about the thing that just happened. It might just be how they’re releasing pent-up stresses, tensions, and big feelings they’ve been carrying around.And the second part of what you’re talking about is really empathy, right? It’s so hard because we don’t always get why something is so upsetting—like you cut the sandwich wrong, or the muffin is broken in half and they want it whole.But I always tell parents, it’s appropriate for little kids to have big feelings about small things. That’s their life perspective right now. They don’t have big adult problems like we do; they just have toddler problems. And to them, those are just as big.Devon: Yeah. And I think it also really stems from this idea of a lack of control. A lot of crying isn’t really about the thing that happened—it’s just the release of all the pent-up stuff, and that was the last straw.But why that becomes the last straw—like cutting the sandwich wrong or peeling the banana when they didn’t want you to—is because toddlers have so little control over their lives. Yet this is the stage where they’re craving control so badly, as they’re differentiating themselves and becoming their own person.So that little thing, like peeling the banana when they didn’t want you to, just reinforces the lack of control they feel—and that’s what sends them over the edge.Sarah: That makes so much sense. I just have so much compassion and empathy for toddlers. I think toddlerhood and middle school are the hardest times of childhood.Okay, let’s shift into some tips, because I’m going to use you to ask some of the questions I get all the time. These have been the questions on repeat for the last 12 years I’ve been doing this.Here’s what I hear:My kid won’t get in the car seat—or they cry when they’re in the car seat.They don’t want their diapers changed, even if it’s really wet or dirty.They don’t want me to brush their teeth.They won’t stop throwing things.So if you want to lump some of those together, go for it—or take them one at a time. I’d love to hear your advice on those situations.Devon: Absolutely. Most of these have to do with the toddler’s developmental drive to experiment and explore—and that happens through movement. Couple that with bodily autonomy: kids know inherently that they are in charge of their bodies.You can’t force a child to eat, use the bathroom, or fall asleep. They are 100% in control of their bodies. That idea—that control is an illusion—is really tough for toddler parents to reckon with. But toddlers are great at teaching us this.The faster we accept that control is an illusion, and that instead we are partners who have to work with our children, the better things will go. At the same time, we are the adults, and we are in charge. Sometimes we do have to cross a child’s bodily autonomy to keep them safe and healthy.So let’s go through the examples.Car seats: Toddlers don’t like being restricted—in a high chair, stroller, or car seat. Every toddler will push against this at some point. It can last for a while and come in phases.Giving your child a sense of control helps: let them climb in, let them choose whether you buckle them or they do it, let them clip the chest strap. Play a silly song as a celebration when they’re in. Keep special toys in the car that they only get to play with there.Also, start earlier than you think you need to, so you’re not rushing. But in the end, sometimes we do have to keep them safe by buckling them in. If we go against their autonomy, we need to talk them through what’s happening, support their emotions, and try again next time.Diaper changes: When toddlers start refusing diaper changes, it means they’re ready for something new. They want to move from a passive bystander to an active participant in their toileting journey.The first step is to change them standing up in the bathroom. Teach them how to push down their pants, undo the diaper tabs, or lean forward so you can wipe them. Yes, it’s harder to clean them up this way, but it gives them control.Tooth brushing: Toddlers want control here too. I recommend three toothbrushes—one for each of their hands and one for you.Sarah: I remember letting my kids brush my teeth with my toothbrush while I brushed theirs.Devon: Exactly! That’s perfect. Another tip: start brushing your own teeth in front of them from a young age. Don’t put pressure on them; let them get interested in what you’re doing.If it’s become a big power struggle, change up the environment. We often brush my son’s teeth in his bedroom, with his head in my lap—it’s actually easier that way. Change of scenery can make a big difference.Sarah: I’ll share a tip that worked with my kids—we made up a story about “Mr. Dirt” who lived in their mouths, and every night we brushed him out. They loved hearing about his adventures while we brushed.Devon: I love that. That’s playfulness—and playfulness creates connection, which creates cooperation. Play is the language of toddlerhood. The more we can tap into that, the better things go.Sarah: Yes! I’m surprised we got this far without specifically calling out playfulness—it’s the number one tool in the toolbox for working with toddlers.Devon: Exactly. Playfulness, role play, brushing a doll’s teeth first, or letting your child brush yours—it all helps toddlers feel powerful and understood.Sarah: Okay, the last challenge: throwing things. I talked to a young couple who wanted to make a “no throwing” rule in their house. I told them I didn’t think that would work, since it’s such a developmental need. How do you manage throwing when it could be unsafe or destructive?Devon: Great question. I talk about this in my book when I explain the recipe for effective discipline: connection, limits, and teaching skills.First, get curious about what’s driving the behavior—throwing can mean so many things. Then, set clear limits: it’s not okay to throw breakables or throw at people. Finally, teach skills and alternatives.Sometimes you can’t expect a two-year-old to regulate in the heat of the moment, so give them safe alternatives: a basket of balled-up socks, or paper they can throw into a laundry basket. This meets the need within your boundaries, while you also work on calming skills in calmer moments.Sarah: That’s so helpful. Now, can you talk about why you don’t recommend timeouts, and why you prefer time-ins instead?Devon: Yes. Timeouts are usually used as punishment—to teach a lesson or stop a behavior. But that’s shortsighted. Behavior is communication, and if we don’t understand what it’s telling us, it will keep popping up—like a game of whack-a-mole.Also, kids often escalate in timeout, because they’re being cut off from their safe base—you. They need you to help them calm down.That’s why I recommend time-ins instead. With time-ins, you’re still upholding limits and keeping everyone safe, but you’re staying with your child, supporting them, and helping them regulate. This builds long-term skills and emotional resilience.Sarah: Love that. Thank you so much for coming on and for writing this book. I really encourage anyone who is a toddler parent—or who knows one—to pre-order your book. It’s a fantastic addition to the peaceful parenting world, and so specific to toddler needs and development.Before I let you go, here’s the question I ask all my guests: If you could go back in time to your younger parent self, what advice would you give?Devon: Gosh. I waited a long time to have a child, and I had a vision of how I wanted things to go. But I had a child with a lot of extra needs, and the things I thought would happen didn’t. So I would tell myself to loosen my expectations, be grateful for the moments I have, and be flexible in how needs get met.Sarah: I love that. Perfect advice for parents of toddlers especially. Thanks so much, Devon.Devon: Thank you! You can find me on Instagram at @transformingtoddlerhood, or on my website, transformingtoddlerhood.com/book for preorder info and bonuses.Sarah: We’ll put the link in the show notes. Your book is comprehensive and very readable—even for me, far past the toddler years. Great job, Devon.Devon: Thank you. That was my whole goal.Thanks for reading Reimagine Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet Substack! This post is public so feel free to share it.>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, “Weekend Reflections” and “Weekend Support” - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in November for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I have a conversation with Zach Brittle, a Licensed Mental Health Counselor (LMHC) and couple’s therapist certified in both Gottman Method Couple’s Therapy and Relational Life Therapy. We focus on the two big areas that partners struggle with: what do you do when you disagree about parenting, and what do you do when one parent is highly reactive.We talk about:8:00 Sorting through different levels of disagreements between partners11:00 Start by finding what you agree about/values/parenting goals18:00 Explaining “Relational Life Therapy”21:00 How “repair” is the goal in peaceful families27:00 How to go into triggering conversations with our partners30:00 Take care of yourself, so you can show up for your partner and kids31:00 When one parent is more reactive than the other36:00 What do you do if your partner won’t change?Resources mentioned in this episode:Sarah’s podcast about limits and boundaries and the issues with themYoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player The Peaceful Parenting Membership Reimagining Limits (and more) in Peaceful Parenting Zach’s podcast Marriage Therapy Radio Zach’s private practice Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:Instagram Facebook Group YouTubeWebsiteJoin us on SubstackNewsletterBook a short consult or coaching session callxx Sarah and Corey**If you’d like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice. Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!Share This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I have a conversation with Desireé B. Stephens about her 10 conscious steps to talking to kids about global crisis. **If you’d like an ad-free version of the podcast, consider becoming a supporter on Substack! If you already ARE a supporter, the ad-free version is waiting for you in the Substack app or you can enter the private feed URL in the podcast player of your choice. You can find the private feed URL for the ad-free version in your Substack account settings under “manage subscription”.Know someone who might appreciate this post? Share it with them!We talk about:* 7:30 What inspired Desiree to write about talking to kids about global crisis* 9:50 1- Start with consent not control* 12:30 How to rest, reset, resist* 15:00 2- Ask, don’t assume* 16:34 3- Name the reality, not the details* 20:24 4- Honour their hidden hives* 24:00 5- Let them see your grief with boundaries* 28:00 6- Link emotions to actionable compassion* 31:00 7- Revisit, don’t one and done* 35:00 8- Build their critical consciousness* 39:00 9- Co-creating boundaries for when it’s too much* 42:00 10- Root it all in relationship, not rhetoricResources mentioned in this episode:* Screen Free Audio Book Player https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/yoto* The Peaceful Parenting Membership https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/membership* Concious Parenting for Social Justice Collective https://parentingdecolonized.com/join-the-collective/* IG post: Conscious Steps to Talking with Kids about Global Crisis with Desiree B Stephens * https://desireebstephens.bio/digitalproductsConnect with Sarah Rosensweet:* Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/* Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup* YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194* Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com * Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting* Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter* Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.phpxx Sarah and CoreyYour peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching sessionVisit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, "Weekend Reflections" and "Weekend Support" - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in the spring for a third year). All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session.Our sponsors:YOTO is a screen free audio book player that lets your kids listen to audiobooks, music, podcasts and more without screens, and without being connected to the internet. No one listening or watching and they can’t go where you don’t want them to go and they aren’t watching screens. BUT they are being entertained or kept company with audio that you can buy from YOTO or create yourself on one of their blank cards. Check them out HEREInterview Transcript: Talking with Kids about Global Crisis with Desireé B. Stephens: Episode 205Sarah: Today's guest is Desiree B. Stephens, and we are going to be talking about 10 Conscious Steps to Talking with Kids About Global Crisis. With everything that's going on in the world right now, it's so important to know how to effectively talk to our kids about what's happening and to help them become social change-makers, rather than wanting to turn away from everything scary.I loved this conversation with Desiree. I was inspired by her and the work that she does, and I thought it would be a great overlap to have her come on and talk to us about this topic.On her Instagram, she asks the question: Ever wonder how decolonization and whole self-healing can transform our world? She and I would both agree that adding conscious parenting—or peaceful parenting—to that is really important. It's one way we are changing the world. Slowly, yes, but still changing the world.Hey Desiree, welcome to the podcast.Desiree: Hello. How are you, Sarah?Sarah: Good. I'm so glad! We’ve crossed paths a couple of times, but we've never really sat down to talk. I’m so glad to have this opportunity.Desiree: I am as well.Sarah: So, tell us about who you are and what you do.Desiree: Okay. Well, my name is Desiree B. Stephens, and I used to open up on TikTok and say, I pathologize whiteness as a system. What I do is believe in dismantling systems through somatic and trauma-informed practices and education. We work on removing shame spirals and touching on the root of the oppression that intersects us all.Sarah: Awesome. I found you—well, I knew you from Yolanda Williams—but I also came across an article you wrote on Substack that someone forwarded to me. That’s what we’re going to be talking about today.But I was also looking at your Substack, and you write about everything from parenting to history, decolonization, and politics. You cover a lot of really interesting topics. I encourage everyone to check it out—we’ll link it in the show notes.The article that really piqued my interest was titled 10 Conscious Steps to Talking with Kids About Global Crisis. This is something I get asked about a lot, and honestly, I’ve never felt like I had great answers. Now you do! So I’m excited to hear about your steps. I think conscious parents are really struggling with this right now. I know I am, both personally and as a professional.My kids are older, so they have a little more understanding—not that it makes it easier, but at least they can use logic a little bit more. Whereas little kids are like, but why?You opened your article with the line: The world is burning and our children are absorbing the smoke. How do we talk to them about war, injustice, genocide, climate collapse, and economic fear? Just a few light dinner table topics, right?So what inspired you to write this? And then let’s get into your ten steps.Desiree: What inspired me was simply that I am a conscious parent. I think we’ve all traversed different parenting styles over the years. I’ve been parenting since I was 17 years old. My youngest just started first grade, and over the years I’ve always had conversations with my children about what’s happening in the world.I think where parents struggle is that it’s innate to want to protect our children. Protection often looks like insulation. But in this current climate—having parented through the ‘90s and now parenting kids who have access to the entire world—it doesn’t matter if we talk about it or not. They’re going to find out. They can get on TikTok, and parental controls don’t stop that.So I asked myself: how can I do this in a trauma-informed way? How can I honor their bodies? Because, like you said, we can’t logic our way through colonization, genocide, starving people, or climate collapse. None of it makes sense.What we can do is trust what our kids are feeling, what they’re going through, and what they’re hearing from friends. So I began sitting down with them and asking: What did you hear about today? How did that make you feel? Where did that show up in your body?Our bodies tell us something. If they say, “My tummy hurt,” that’s anxiety. For example, if a child hears about a school shooting, then suddenly doesn’t want to eat and complains of a stomach ache, they’re not sick—they’re anxious. I can’t tell them, You’re safe, there’s a security guard at school. That doesn’t erase their fear.So the question is: how do we process those feelings and help them engage in social justice within a framework that makes sense to them—usually, the home?Sarah: That’s such a good point—that none of it makes sense, and that the fear is real. I love that one of your steps is asking them what they already know. But before that, you have a step that I think is so important: start with consent, not control. Can you talk about that?Desiree: I believe in consent in all things. We often talk about consent in the context of sex—like, don’t touch me here, that’s my no-no square. But consent is much broader. A touch on the shoulder could be the lead-in to inappropriate behavior. Most children who are harmed are hurt by someone they know, who has built trust.So for me, consent extends to all things—including conversations. That ties into the second step, which is: What have you heard? But it begins with consent: Would you like to talk about this today? How are you feeling? Do you have questions?It lets them lead and make a choice. Because sometimes, even I don’t want to talk about it. Sometimes I just want to eat dinner or relax, not think about the world burning. And if I feel that way, surely they do too.Sarah: You know what I love about that? I think of my oldest child, who’s 24 now. From day one, he carried this existential angst. He cares so deeply about everything we’re talking about, but he’s always had a hard time putting it down.As he was growing up, I kept saying, It’s amazing that you care so deeply and you go to protests, but you don’t have to carry the weight of the world on your shoulders. That’s such an important lesson—and it’s embedded in your idea of starting with consent.Desiree: Exactly. Right now, I’m in what I call a season of rest, reset, resist. On my Substack, I’ve been writing lessons on these themes: two on resting, two on resetting, and two on resisting.There’s no way this work can be sustainable if we live in constant crisis. If we only focus on the terror, we lose the joy. But joy and rest are also acts of resistance. They are resilience.For example, in my work on decolonization, I remind people that these systems have existed for thousands of years. And yet—we’re still here. That should bring joy. It’s proof of resilience.White-bodied people who are new to anti-racism work or activism often burn out quickly. They go to every march, every meeting, until they’re exhausted. And I ask: When are you just going to take a walk? When are you going to gather with friends and celebrate?This doesn’t have to feel like an emergency all the time. That sense of urgency is one of the pillars of supremacy culture. Not everything is urgent. We’re still here.Sarah: Yeah.Desiree: And that’s why it’s so important to balance. Otherwise, kids end up feeling crushed under the weight of global crisis, on top of their own developmental changes. Sometimes the best response is: Okay, baby, breathe.Sarah: Yes. And so, by starting with consent, you give them the choice to say, Tonight I’m just going to play video games, even if there was a school lockdown earlier that day.Desiree: Exactly. That’s fine. Because later is coming. These conversations are not going away.Activism has to be sustainable. You have to know your capacity. Not everyone can march. Some people write emails. Some people color with their kids and talk about it during that time. That’s valid too.Sarah: I love that.Desiree: Coloring with your kids, reading children around the world books, talking about culture—these are beautiful, simple ways to weave in social justice. It doesn’t have to be violent or traumatizing.Sarah: Yes—because if you traumatize people, they shut down. And then nothing gets done.So, your second step is ask, don’t assume. Ask them what they’ve heard, what they know, and how they feel. And your third step is name the reality, not the details. Tell us about that.Desiree: This changes with age. I have children from adulthood down to six years old. So, for example, when my kids ask about expensive sneakers, I explain: They cost $3 to make, using child labor. That’s why I won’t pay $300 for them.That’s naming the reality—without overwhelming them with traumatic details. Similarly, with Gaza, I don’t need to show my kids graphic images of starving babies. That’s traumatizing. The reality is enough: This is happening. People are suffering.Children don’t need trauma dumps. We can speak clearly without overwhelming them. For a younger child, it could be as simple as: Some leaders are hurting people, and some people are standing up to stop it.Sarah: Right. And you use examples at home too, like play-fighting among siblings. One child steps in and says, That’s too rough. That’s social justice on a small scale.Desiree: Exactly. Small examples at home translate to global understanding. We can show kids that standing up for others matters. And then we help them find their own capacity—whether it’s writing letters, talking about it, or making a video.Sarah: Yes. And if you just pour out trauma, kids will shut down.Desiree: Exactly.Sarah: So step four is honor their hidden hives. What does that mean?Desiree: Kids have their own communities, their own secret lives. Online especially, they connect globally—with Palestinian friends, Jewish friends, Congolese friends, kids in red states, kids with MAGA parents. Their reach is global in a way ours never was.So, honoring their hidden hives means respecting that their conversations matter. Ask: What are you and your friends talking about? What do they think? Don’t dismiss them as “just kids.” They often understand more than we do.Sarah: Yes! I remember being dismissed by adults as a child, and how frustrating that felt. I had real thoughts and opinions. That’s a kind of adult-centrism, and I know that’s a theme in your work.Desiree: Exactly. Center kids in their own lives. What matters to them matters—just like what matters to us in our friendships.Sarah: Okay, now step five: Let them see your grief, with boundaries. This is a hard one for me. I cry easily when talking about these topics, but I don’t want to traumatize my kids.Desiree: But why do we think crying is traumatizing?Sarah: I guess I worry that if they see me overwhelmed, they’ll feel overwhelmed too.Desiree: The opposite can also happen. If you never let them see you grieve, they may feel they have to hold it in as well.Our parents and grandparents grew up in eras of war, enslavement, displacement. They learned to “button it up” and carry on. They raised us to believe there’s “no crying in baseball.”But my parenting journey has been about humanizing myself. I don’t want my kids to only realize I’m human after I die. If they see me cry about a world in crisis, that teaches them it’s okay to feel deeply too.Now, the boundary is important—we don’t completely fall apart in front of them. They still need to feel safe. If a parent collapses emotionally, kids may feel like they have to take care of the parent. That’s the line we don’t want to cross.Sarah: Yes—that’s exactly what I was worried about.Desiree: Right. So we want to find that balance of communal care. We take care of each other here, right? Let’s set aside a moment for grief. How are you feeling? What are you grieving today?What made you feel sad? What made you feel displaced? What made you feel unheard, unseen, unloved? Let’s get into that. Let’s feel that for a moment. And then — what could feel different? What could we all do better as a community?This made me feel bad when you said that. I share with my kids: “When you don’t do X, Y, and Z, it makes me feel like you don’t care about what I think. And that hurts me.” Right? I don’t want to be a parent who just seems angry. I want to be clear that I’m hurt. That hurt my feelings.And I love you so much, I care about you so much, that your feelings matter to me — but I also want to matter to you. And that, for me, is communal care.Sarah: You mentioned a couple of sentences back about “what can we do,” which links nicely into your next step: link emotions to actionable compassion.There’s that Mr. Rogers quote about whenever anything bad is happening, look for the helpers. And research shows that when you have big emotions without feeling like you can do anything, that’s when kids (and adults) turn cynical.So maybe you could give us a couple of examples. You already mentioned going to marches and emailing. But what are some other things you’ve done with your kids, or that you’ve seen other people do with their kids, that connect emotions to actionable compassion?Desiree: Well, again, it all ties together. What’s your capacity? What are you able to do that’s long-term and sustainable?When the George Floyd protests were happening, my eldest was outside. She said, “Absolutely not. I’m not going to march, I’m not going to take risks.” I said, “Okay, but how do you feel? Do you feel like you’re making a difference?”She started going out with water and sandwiches. That turned into a nonprofit — Feed the Revolution. Donations poured in. We even had to get a storage unit for all the water and dry goods. That’s linking compassion and passion with actionable steps. It was something she could do safely.And that’s how you bring in community care. Other people couldn’t march, but they could bring food, bring water, or look for the helper.With kids, it might look different. If they have a Discord group, maybe they can have a conversation once a week: What are your thoughts on this? How do you feel? That’s activism too. Sharing, course correcting, letting people know, “Hey, that was harmful. Can we do better?”So: What are you feeling? What do you have the capacity for? What’s sustainable? And what can we do?Sarah: And you mentioned even some quiet things, like coloring with your kids, learning about kids around the world, lighting a candle at home, making art for peace, or helping someone locally. Even helping actions that aren’t tied to a “cause,” but are just about kindness.Desiree: But that is the issue, right? Because then you start raising helpers.The other day, we had some leftover curry. My son Kira said, “I don’t want any more… but can we box it up and give it to somebody?” I said, “I love that. Great. Let’s microwave some rice, put it in a container, and go outside to share it.”So now he’s learning about not wasting food, about climate collapse, about taking care of community. And people often think it has to be big. “Oh, you need to feed 50 people.” But you fed one. That matters.Sarah: Even if it’s just your next-door neighbor who doesn’t cook much — bring them some food.Desiree: Or the burned-out parent who’s doing all the caretaking. How nice would it be to say, “Hey, I got dinner for you. I know you’ve already fed your kids. Let someone take care of you.”That shows your children you can make a difference without it having to be huge. The fatigue comes from feeling like we need to combat everything at once. That’s overwhelming, and overwhelming leads to burnout.Sarah: Right.Desiree: Liberation isn’t one-and-done. It isn’t a single conversation. It’s a practice, a relationship, a rhythm. You’re modeling that the truth takes time, and we don’t have to rush.Sarah: I love that. It’s like conversations about sex, right? You don’t have one talk and then you’re done. You keep talking as kids grow and change.Desiree: Exactly. When I talk about liberation work and decolonization, it’s about creating a culture shift. None of us like to feel lectured to. Making it conversational changes everything. It becomes about solution-finding: there’s a problem, what’s the solution, what are the steps?That teaches kids that even if a problem can’t be completely eradicated, we can do something. Harm reduction matters. How can we create less harm and do more good?Sarah: And it leaves space for thought and choice. For example, my daughter’s iPhone screen broke. She wondered if she should just buy a new phone. I told her, “I’m not going to judge you, but my value is: fix what’s still good.” It might not be the most practical or cheapest option, but it feels better ethically.So we talked. And then she made her own decision.Desiree: Yes, exactly. It’s harm reduction again. And you gave her the choice — you didn’t say, “Absolutely not.”Sarah: Right.Desiree: That’s powerful.Sarah: Okay, so your next step is build their critical consciousness. This means inviting them to go deeper — asking questions like, “Who benefits from this system? What would fairness look like? What do you wish adults would do differently?”Desiree: Yes. The safest place to practice that questioning is at home. But that’s hard in a hierarchical society.Sarah: Right, you’re like, “Question other people, not me!” (laughs)Desiree: Exactly. But raising reflective rebels — kids who can think critically, even with us — is essential.We even did this around bedtime. My kids didn’t want a set bedtime. I explained why rest matters. Then we co-created a boundary: “Okay, stay up as late as you want, but you have to get up happily, on time, and not be dysregulated at school.”It lasted less than two weeks! They realized for themselves that lack of sleep doesn’t work. That’s better than me saying “Because I said so.” They learned through experience.Sarah: That’s such a good example of co-creating boundaries. What does that look like in the context of activism and social justice?Desiree: It’s about recognizing reality. Not everyone is open to these conversations, especially because they’re kids, and also because they’re Black and neurodiverse. They need to know when to call me in, and when to stand firm with a respectful “no.”For example, my kids don’t do homework. I don’t want them indoctrinated into an 80-hour work week. They come home to rest, play, and have a balanced life. That’s our boundary.Sarah: Yes, that’s so good.Desiree: And finally, root it all in relationship, not rhetoric. If I don’t trust you, I won’t have conversations with you. Punitive parenting “works,” but only out of fear. The opposite of fear is radical love.Our kids need us to see them as human beings and build real relationships with them. That includes repair when we mess up. Restoration is key.Sarah: Yes.Desiree: Parenting is inherently hierarchical, and that creates a power imbalance. It can be abusive if we’re not conscious of that. So our goal is to shift from power over to power with. That’s how we raise kids who believe in communal power — and who grow up ready to change the world.Sarah: I love that. That’s a hopeful place to stop. Thank you so much.Desiree: Thank you.Sarah: One last question I ask all my guests: if you could go back to your younger parent self, what advice would you give?Desiree: Parent the child in front of you. That’s the best advice I ever got. Don’t parent from your own trauma.Sarah: Beautiful. And where can people find you?Desiree: My Substack is desireebstephens.com— that’s Stephens with a PH. I also co-host Parenting Decolonized with Yolanda, and we run a parenting support group. I’ll share those links.Sarah: Perfect. We’ll put all of that in the show notes. Thank you again.Desiree: Thank you.Sarah: We’re all out here trying to change the world. Slowly, but sustainably.Desiree: Absolutely.>> Please support us!!! Please consider becoming a supporter to help support our free content, including The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, our free parenting support Facebook group, and our weekly parenting emails, "Weekend Reflections" and "Weekend Support" - plus our Flourish With Your Complex Child Summit (coming back in November for the 3rd year!) All of this free support for you takes a lot of time and energy from me and my team. If it has been helpful or meaningful for you, your support would help us to continue to provide support for free, for you and for others.In addition to knowing you are supporting our mission to support parents and children, you get the podcast ad free and access to a monthly ‘ask me anything’ session. This is a public episode. 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This episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast is my fourth interview with anxiety expert Lynn Lyons! We discuss how to handle school avoidance, including: how to figure out the root cause of school avoidance, how anxiety works including physical symptoms, and how to teach parents and children how to handle anxiety when it inevitably shows up.We talk about:4:31 Finding the root cause to school avoidance7:00 Using “home days” when kids need a break9:00 Normalizing needing breaks, rather than pathologizing 11:40 Emotionally based school avoidance- includes anxiety and depression16:00 How anxiety can cause physical symptoms like stomach aches and headaches23:03 Teaching kids and parents to tolerate uncertainty30:00 Why techniques to “get rid” of worry don’t work32:00 How to talk back to worry48:13 How to handle “The Moment of Goodbye” when dropping kids offResources mentioned in this episode:Three Skills to Protect Our Kids’ Mental Health with Lynn Lyons https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode35/ Membership Q&A – How to Help Anxious Kids in Real Life Scenarios with Lynn Lyons https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode45/ How Anxiety Shows Up in Our Parenting and What to Do About It with Lynn Lyons https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/episode-99-how-anxiety-shows-up-in-our-parenting-and-what-to-do-about-it-with-lynn-lyons/ Lynn Lyon’s podcast Flusterclux https://www.flusterclux.com/episodes/ Lynn’s website https://www.lynnlyons.com/ Connect with Sarah Rosensweet  Support us on Substack: https://sarahrosensweet.substack.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/ Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroupWebsite: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com  Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

Hey all, we just wanted to let you know that we are doing a little podcast hiatus, while Corey and I both take some time off in the summer and enjoy time with our families. We will be back with a new episode in a few weeks. Until then, look over the archives. There may be an episode or two that you've missed. We've been doing this podcast for a long time now and we have over 200 episodes. So maybe there's one you've missed or maybe there's a favorite one that you would like to revisit. And also if you love the show, please take the time to rate and review us and make sure you're following the show so you don't miss an episode when we do come back. Thanks for being such a great listener and can't wait to come back to you in this space. See you soon! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, we are giving you a sneak peak inside my Peaceful Parenting Membership. We have virtual office hours twice a week, and during this particular Office Hours we cover a lot of ground including limit setting, anxiety, sibling conflicts, parenting peacefully even when triggered, and using play to give children power.    We talk about: 5:00 A member working through conflicts with siblings 11:07 A member having conflicts with their child’s school being too punitive 12:41 Working through when you can accommodate your child’s preferences vs. when you are accommodating your child’s anxiety 21:00 What we take into consideration when setting a limit 28:45 Working through sibling sharing rules 33:00 When siblings are saying mean things to one another 35:00 A member sharing a big win about sticking to being peaceful even when things get hard with her kids 43:00 Setting limits around play dates during the week 49:00 Giving children intentional “boss us around time”   Download the episode transcript HERE    Resources mentioned in this episode: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/yoto  The Peaceful Parenting Membership https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/membership  Be Your Child’s Play Therapist! The Way of Play with Georgie Wisen-Vincent: Episode 178    Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/  Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194 Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com   Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting  Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter  Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, is a conversation with Ned Johnson who is the co-author of three books including his most recent The Seven Principles for Raising a Self-Driven Child: A Workbook. This is Ned’s fourth time coming on the podcast and this time we discuss letting kids learn from controlling their own lives and making mistakes, being kids “technology consultants”, and motivating teens to make changes when they are engaging in unhealthy behaviours. We talk about: 6:30 What is a self driven child?  11:50 How parental anxiety leads to not giving kids control over their own lives 15:52 Why we need to stop forcing our kids to do things 18:00 Why kids should be in charge of their own college/university applications 26:00 Letting kids learn from their own mistakes/natural consequences 32:00 How do we handle our kids’ tech use without controlling them? 45:00 How to handling fighting over a teen’s phone use 50:00 Case study about an autistic teen who is smoking a lot of weed   Download the episode transcript HERE    Resources mentioned in this episode: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/yoto  The Seven Principles for Raising a Self-Driven Child: A Workbook Unmasking Autism by Devon Price  What Really Works for Children with Autism by Peter Vermeulen  Is This Autism by Donna Henderson   Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/  Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194 Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com   Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting  Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter  Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php  This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, is a conversation with parenting coach and author Lori Sugarman-Li. We discuss how to teach the next generation to care for the home by focusing on making care work visible, discussing shared family values, and respectfully getting children involved in care tasks. We talk about: 5:00 What is Fair Play? 1:00 Getting kids involved in caring for the home 14:32 Elevating the work of giving care and having men participating in that 18:22 How what is visible is valued 19:22 The Peaceful Parenting approach to raising helpful kids 24:000 Starting from a place of being a Family Team with shared values 29:43 What happens when family members have different values 32:30 Explaining the “why” behind chores 39:00 When kids say “no” to chores   Download the episode transcript HERE    Resources mentioned in this episode: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/yoto  Our Home: The Love, Work, and Heart if Family  Lori’s website  IG @ourhomeourpride   Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarahrosensweet/  Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/peacefulparentingfreegroup YouTube: Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet @peacefulparentingwithsarah4194 Website: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com   Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/peacefulparenting  Newsletter: https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/newsletter  Book a short consult or coaching session call: https://book-with-sarah-rosensweet.as.me/schedule.php    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit sarahrosensweet.substack.com/subscribe