TradWives and Incels: What Parents Need To Know About the Manosphere and the Womanosphere with Jo-Ann Finkelstein Episode 208

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, OR— BRAND NEW: we’ve included a fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein returns to talk with me about what parents need to know about concerning anti-woman rhetoric and actions in the “manosphere” and the “womanosphere”.

We cover the philosophy of each, the terms and important figures of these movements, as well as what to do if your kid is already being influenced and how to protect them from these harmful messages.

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We talk about:

* 7:10 What is misogyny?

* 7:45 What is the “manosphere”?

* 15:00 What is the “womanosphere”?

* 20:00 What are the false statistics that have a lot of traction?

* 22:00 What do we do as parents for our boys?

* 26:00 What to do if your boys are listening to misogynistic influencers

* 28:00 The four parts of developing critical media literacy

* 35:30 How to mentor not monitor social media

* 34:00 Terminology we need to know as parents

Resources mentioned in this episode:

* Yoto Player-Screen Free Audio Book Player

* The Peaceful Parenting Membership

* Sexism and Sensibility: Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls in the Modern World with Jo Ann Finkelstein: Episode 164

* Sexism & Sensibility Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls In The Modern World

* Episode 118: Raising Kids in the Era of Technology with Devorah Heitner

* Jo-Ann Finkelstein’s Substack

* Jo-Ann Finkelstein’s website

xx Sarah and Corey

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Transcript:

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast.

I’ve been noticing a lot in the media, and in the world around me, an enormous amount of tension around gender equity and ideology—as well as seeing concerning anti-woman rhetoric and actions. I’ve also heard from parents who are worried about the influencers and media their kids are being exposed to, and the really quite problematic ideas that come with that.

That’s why I asked Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein to come back on the podcast. She was on an earlier episode about her book Sexism and Sensibility—we’ll link to that in the show notes if you haven’t heard it yet. I wanted her to talk with me about what parents need to know about the manosphere and the womanosphere.

You might not even have heard of the womanosphere—I just learned about it through Jo-Ann’s work. And while I think most of us have heard of the manosphere, we might not be quite sure what it is. Jo-Ann gives us a great overview of the big ideas, terms, and key figures of these movements, as well as what to do if your child is already being influenced—and how to protect them from these, quite frankly, harmful ideas.

If you know anyone who needs to hear this, please share it with them. And we’d really appreciate it if you’d rate and review the podcast on your favorite podcast player app—it really helps us reach more families and support more children and their caregivers.

Let’s meet Jo-Ann.

Sarah: Hey, Jo-Ann, welcome back to the podcast.

Jo-Ann: I am so glad to be back.

Sarah: I’ve really been wanting to talk to you about today’s topic because there’s just so much going on in the world—and in North America right now—that feels so hard. Especially as a person who cares about people, and as a parent. I get your Substack and I love what you write about gender equity and sexism. Of course, your book Sexism and Sensibility was what you were on the podcast to talk about last time—it’s a wonderful book. We’ll link to that episode and to your book in the show notes.

But before I dive in any further, tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do.

Jo-Ann: I’m a clinical psychologist and a writer. I wrote the book Sexism and Sensibility: Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls in the Modern World, as you just mentioned. I see all genders in my private practice, but I do see a lot of girls and women—and a lot of mothers and daughters.

Since writing the book, and especially since the political changes we’ve seen in the United States, I’ve really expanded the areas I study, think about, and write about. So I’m glad to be here to talk about such an important topic—the manosphere and the womanosphere.

Sarah: I’m so glad you’re here to talk about it. My feeling is that we’re going backwards in terms of gender equity and women’s rights—rights that were hard-won over generations. We’ve seen the loss of reproductive rights in the U.S. and threats of even more restrictions. And it feels like it’s become more acceptable again to share misogynistic viewpoints, especially with the rise of the manosphere and the womanosphere.

Before we go further, can you explain a few things for anyone who might not know? What is misogyny?

Jo-Ann: Misogyny literally means “hatred of women,” but it’s often used more broadly to describe the sexism women experience. It can be an attitude or an action—something someone does to put down or harm someone who identifies as female.

Sarah: Okay, and then the manosphere and the womanosphere—or femosphere, as you said it’s sometimes called.

Jo-Ann: Yes, though there are slight differences between the womanosphere and femosphere. But basically, the manosphere is a diverse collection of websites, blogs, and online forums that promote masculinity, misogyny, and opposition to feminism.

In a world where two-thirds of young men say that nobody really knows them—and where there’s no clear agreement on what a “good man” looks like or how to become one—it creates the perfect conditions for men to look for connection online, often through the manosphere.

This network swoops in to provide what feels like clear messaging about gender roles and relationships—and it promotes the belief that for women to advance, men have to lose something.

Sarah: When I was reading about it yesterday to prepare for this, one thing that stood out was that a lot of young men don’t necessarily encounter the overt anti-woman content right away. It often starts with fitness advice, or how to talk to girls—kind of self-improvement content. The anti-woman message is the undercurrent, but it’s still there.

Jo-Ann: Exactly. They swoop in with these simple explanations of how to be a man—and they groom these boys in a very slow-drip way. The scary messages are mixed in with talk about gaming, relationships, mental health, wellbeing, getting rich, and getting enough protein.

The misogyny starts as memes or jokes—things that can be brushed off as humor or “locker room talk.” But over time, algorithm pulsl them further down the rabbit hole, toward deeper messages about being victimized by society.

You can imagine a lonely, rejected boy sitting at his computer thinking, “Yeah, that’s not fair—I haven’t done anything wrong. The system is rigged against me. I’m being victimized.” It’s a very appealing message for someone who feels like a loser—to reframe himself as an underdog, downtrodden by a world that’s unfair to him.

Sarah: Do you think that connects to the Me Too movement? Was the rise of the manosphere a response to that, or did it start earlier?

Jo-Ann: I don’t know if there’s a direct line, but yes—I write a lot about backlash. Me Too was a real moment for women to speak up and have their voices heard, to talk about the things in our culture that are frightening, violent, and deeply unfair.

Whenever there’s progress, there’s backlash. As women began to be heard and things started to change, it felt threatening to some men. That’s part of what fuels the manosphere.

And just to clarify for your listeners—kids don’t call it “the manosphere.” Adults do. The kids think that term is totally cringe.

Sarah: Right, your teenager’s not going to respond if you say, “Who do you follow in the manosphere?” They’ll be like, “What?”

Jo-Ann: Exactly.

Sarah: But I have had a friend—a progressive dad—reach out to say, “My 15-year-old son loves Andrew Tate. What do I do?” And Andrew Tate seems like one of the biggest figures in the manosphere.

Jo-Ann: Yes, Andrew Tate is huge—and very toxic. He was charged with sex trafficking and sexual assault in Romania and London, and Trump is thought to have even helped bring him back to the U.S. so he couldn’t be tried.

Sarah: Let’s talk a bit about the femosphere, but before that, I just want to say—my 18-year-old daughter started working in restaurants this year, and as much as it feels like we’re going backwards in some ways, I can see progress too. When I was her age, there were things that were totally acceptable—especially in restaurant culture—that no one would ever do now, at least not openly.

And I see in my kids’ generation this awareness and confidence—when someone says or does something inappropriate, they call it out right away.

Jo-Ann: Yes, we don’t want to be too depressing—there has been real progress. I wouldn’t say those things never happen anymore, but maybe they happen less, and there’s much more awareness around them.

Sarah: I think maybe part of the rise of the manosphere is that feeling among some men that the ground has shifted under them. There was this celebrity who got “canceled” for behavior that would have been considered normal when I was a teenager, and I think a lot of men who grew up with that were like, “Wait—that’s just how it’s always been.”

Jo-Ann: Exactly. That used to be part of masculinity—and now you’re saying they can’t do that. So they ask, “What is masculinity?” And women are saying, “Just behave well. Don’t be a creep.” And they’re like, “Wait—I thought that was being a man.” It’s confusing.

We have to listen to boys, take them seriously, and teach them well.

Sarah: Thank you for saying that—much more eloquently than I did. Okay, so what’s the womanosphere?

Jo-Ann: Before we go on, I want to add that some of the other big manosphere influencers are people like Logan Paul and the Nelk Boys—who, by the way, are from Canada originally. They’ve had a huge influence on boys and even on the U.S. election outcomes.

Sarah: I’d never even heard of them—thank you.

Jo-Ann: So, the womanosphere includes people like Brett Cooper and Candace Owens. It’s helpful to know what to look out for.

If the manosphere is toxic masculinity dressed up as philosophy, then the womanosphere is misogyny dressed up in milkmaid clothing.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jo-Ann: It looks soft, harmless, even aspirational—cottagecore filters, tradwife influencers with gorgeous homes and perfectly dressed kids. But beneath that aesthetic is a push for women to shrink themselves, to submit to their husbands, and to trade ambition for dependency.

It preys on the very real struggles women face. But instead of fighting for systemic change—like paid leave, affordable childcare, or equal partnership—it sells women this glossy rewind to the days when women were expected to find fulfillment only through being a wife and mother, taking on all the domestic labor with a smile.

If you’re a woman suffering, —or a girl who sees your mom — suffering under the weight of everything she does, the message “Just let him take care of you” can sound pretty appealing.

Sarah: It must also be a direct response to how hard it is for women to juggle it all. I was listening to an interview with Elizabeth Warren, and she talked about how, as a young mother, her biggest struggle was finding reliable, affordable childcare. Then her daughter’s biggest struggle was the same thing—and now her granddaughter’s is too.

And I recently listened to Ketanji Brown Jackson’s memoir, where she talked about crying on the kitchen floor because she didn’t know how she could keep working and still care for her kids, even with two working parents.

So when it all feels overwhelming, that romanticized domestic ideal must look really appealing.

Jo-Ann: Absolutely. Working and raising kids—it’s exhausting. I look back and don’t know how I survived those years. None of us can be the moms we want to be when we’re that tired and still fighting for equality at home.

So yes, when you see a woman on the internet who looks like she has it all together, you think, “I want that.”

Sarah: Yeah. And I think it can be even darker than just the “make your own bread and stay home” message—there’s also the undercurrent of submission, of not being an equal partner.

Jo-Ann: Oh yes. There’s a lot about submitting to your husband. The goal seems to be: if we glorify femininity and motherhood enough, women will stop demanding things like birth control and abortion access. They’ll become too overwhelmed, overburdened, and outnumbered to organize against a culture built to serve men’s needs at women’s expense.

I really do think this comes from a deep fear—among men in power—of women’s power. A fear that they’ll lose what they’ve long believed is their birthright.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jo-Ann: Their birthright of power, head of household status, sex—all the things they’ve been raised to believe they’re entitled to.

Sarah: Right? So, where does it make sense to go to next in our conversation here? I mean, I had some anecdotes that I’ve shared a couple of along the way, but one thing that made me think about this was watching this documentary—have you seen the Lilith Fair documentary on Netflix?

Jo-Ann: No, I haven’t.

Sarah: It was really good.

Jo-Ann: I’ve heard it’s really good.

Sarah: It was really good. Why Sarah McLachlan organized Lilith Fair was because she would go to a radio station, and they’d be like, “Oh, we really like your music, but we already have a woman on this week—we’re playing Tracy Chapman.” There was just so much sexism in the music industry, right? There wasn’t room for more than one woman at a time. So she was like, “I’m going to do a whole festival with only women.” And it was enormously successful.

Then the next weekend, I went to a three-day music festival, and I started counting how many women were on stage. I had to stop because it was so depressing. It’s still the same. It’s a little off-topic from the womanosphere and manosphere, but sometimes I just feel so helpless. Like, what’s the point in all of this? So what can we do as parents?

Jo-Ann: Before we get into the how-to, I just want parents to get a sense of what their kids are hearing. They’re hearing the same false statistics over and over again—like “false rape allegations are very common.” They hear that all the time.

So as a woman, you’re saying, “I’m counting these people on stage, and there are very few women.” But they’re hearing the opposite. They’re hearing, “Women are taking over,” that “men are losing out,” that “they’re being rejected because 80% of women only date 20% of men,” which is false. They hear conspiracy theories that feminists want to destroy white men, who are supposedly the real victims of society.

So your son is online, finding this community of guys who feel the same way he does—and they’re offering him belonging he may not have felt before. These are ready-made friends. And like you said, it’s this drip, this undercurrent. When they start to realize that these men are actually calling for the rape and destruction of women, it doesn’t sound that bad anymore because they’ve been so overwhelmed by these messages. It starts to sound normal—maybe even righteous—to incite hatred toward girls and women.

It doesn’t just harm women—it harms boys and men too, because it promotes unrealistic and extreme measures to “improve” their social standing. For example, “looksmaxing”—which can mean anything from hygiene tips and fitness routines to extreme dietary restrictions, cosmetic surgery, or steroid use.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jo-Ann: So as parents, we have to help boys integrate the idea of themselves as caring, emotionally connected, cooperative people—to see those qualities as aspirational, not emasculating.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jo-Ann: For the good of everybody. That’s a basic value that I’m sure many of your listeners already hold, but we have to help boys understand that those are human qualities, not feminine ones. Because at the root of sexism is the rejection of the feminine.

Sarah: The people listening to my podcast already care about connection, but I just want to call out—having raised two boys—don’t listen to anyone who tells you they need you less than your girls might, or that they’re not as bothered by things. They still need connection, care, and intimacy with their families just as much as girls do.

Jo-Ann: And they need it within friendships too. But when they seek it out, they’re called “soy boys” or “white knights.” If they’re seen as subservient to women in any way, or having needs that women have, they get called derogatory names.

Sarah: Okay. So, onto the how-to—what would you say to my friend whose 15-year-old loves Andrew Tate?

Jo-Ann: The first thing I’d say is don’t panic. Be curious. Really listen without jumping to react, even if what they say is shocking or upsetting—because that will just push them away.

I went through this with my son. It wasn’t extreme, but he was listening to a lot of those streamers. Thankfully, he was bringing some of this stuff to us, kind of with bravado. Inside, I’d feel disgusted or angry, but I kept my poker face and really listened.

We’re lucky—he grew up with parents who think critically about these things, and in a liberal extended family, so he was less likely to go down that road. But he really could have. He’s also very skeptical. He’d notice when some streamers shifted politically—from liberal to very conservative—and he’d say, “These people are getting paid.”

So we really want to help our kids develop critical media literacy.

Engaging online with your kid can be a natural way to start conversations about what they’re exposed to. I talk about this in my book—it can be broken down into four parts.

Sarah: Sure.

Jo-Ann: The first one is to promote skeptical thinking. Teach your kids to question information they see online. Encourage them to consider the source and the creator’s intentions. For example, they can ask, “Why is this person telling me this? What are they trying to sell me?”

The second is to explain the origins of online content. Teach them that many influencers monetize controversy. They use shock value, misinformation, or skewed statistics to get views—and their advice often lacks expertise. You can say, “These guys aren’t experts. I wonder where they’re getting their information. Let’s look up the real statistics.”

Third, teach them that these ideas aren’t just internet fads—they’re tied to larger political goals, like restricting reproductive rights, pushing “hyper-motherhood,” and keeping women too overburdened to organize.

Also, teach them how “anti-victim” language reframes systemic issues as personal failures. “It’s not sexism—it’s your mindset.”

Sarah: Right.

Jo-Ann: That’s especially true for girls, because it turns structural inequality into an individual woman’s problem to fix.

Sarah: Right—like, “You’re just not working hard enough,” or “You don’t believe in yourself.”

Jo-Ann: Exactly. Or, “It was just a joke. Stop being so sensitive.” It’s the same old stuff. We want them to understand that real liberation isn’t just “dealing with the cards you’re dealt.”

Because in the womanosphere, you’ll hear, “Men are just naturally stronger and need to lead—and if you let them, everything will be fine.” And in the femosphere, it’s “Men are trash; you’ve got to game the system, use them for money.” We want girls to see that real liberation is the opposite—it’s about naming injustice, demanding systemic change, and building communities of women.

The fourth part is to debunk pseudoscience. Teach kids to recognize misinformation—distorted statistics or pseudoscientific gender theories—and help them identify reputable sources. Give them solid information about mental health and relationships.

And finally, talk openly about and challenge gender stereotypes. Point out the endless denigration of girls and women in movies, TV shows, and other media. Help them see that stereotypes limit everyone and reinforce the rigid beliefs of those online echo chambers.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jo-Ann: I give a lot of examples of this in Sexism and Sensibility—common sexist themes in media that parents can use to reach their kids. Of course, you don’t want to “yuck their yum” too much, or they’ll tune you out. Ask open-ended questions, share your thoughts, and encourage reflection—but don’t be heavy-handed, or you’ll lose them.

Sarah: Yeah, that’s super important. Because if you go too hard, they’ll just go underground. They won’t tell you what they’re following or listening to, and you’ll have even less ability to help them think critically about it.

Where do you stand on social media guidelines? Do you think people are right to say “no social media until 16”?

Jo-Ann: I’m not a social media expert, but I don’t think waiting until 16 is realistic. I really believe “mentor, not monitor” is the more effective way—because kids will always find ways around the rules.

Of course, when they’re young, the longer you can delay Snapchat, Instagram, and TikTok, the better. But that’s how teens find community and connect. It’s not all bad. Boys, for example, do find real communities online—on Discord, for instance—it’s just which communities they find that’s the problem. So yes, mentor, not monitor.

Sarah: “Mentor, not monitor.” I like that. That’s helpful.

Jo-Ann: Credit to Devorah Heitner.

Sarah: I was going to say! Aren’t you friends with Devorah Heitner? I’ve heard her say that. She’s also been on the podcast, and we’ll link to that episode in the show notes.

So—what should I have asked you about that I haven’t?

Jo-Ann: Maybe some of the terminology. Do parents know what “red-pilling” is?

Sarah: Tell us.

Jo-Ann: It’s basically the manosphere’s core philosophy. It comes from The Matrix and means “waking up” to feminism’s supposed oppression of men. The “blue pill” represents ignorance—someone who doesn’t realize men are being oppressed. The “black pill” is used by incels, meaning they’ve accepted their “terminal celibacy.”

Maybe I should explain who the different groups of the manosphere are.

An incel believes men are entitled to sex but aren’t getting it because women deny them—and that women should be punished for that.

Then there are Pickup Artists—this is a $100 million global industry led by men who boast about rape and believe it should be legalized on public property. They train men to harass and assault women.

Then there are Men’s Rights Activists. They claim to care about men’s issues, but in practice, they focus on attacking women and dismantling feminism—bringing lawsuits to defund sexual violence services or weaken women’s protections.

And finally, there’s “Men Going Their Own Way” (MGTOW)—men who believe women are so toxic they have to cut them out of their lives altogether.

Sarah: Wow. This is dark stuff.

Jo-Ann: It really is.

Sarah: It reminds me of that idea that there’s only one pie—if other people get rights, it takes away from yours.

Jo-Ann: Exactly. But I believe we can help boys and men see that it’s not a limited pie. They may have to give something up, but they also gain something—relationships, connection, emotional fulfillment.

Care work in this culture is so demeaned that men avoid it—but it’s also where so much of women’s connection comes from. Many men’s deathbed regrets are about not having the relationships they wanted.

So yes, as women take on more public work, men will have to take on more private work—not more overall, but more equally—and they’ll also gain. Yes, they might have to wash the toilet, but they’ll get more time with their kids, more friendships, more access to their own emotions.

Sarah: I remember when our first son was born, my husband hadn’t really taken care of babies before, and I had. I was much more comfortable changing diapers, all that. His first instinct was, “You do that—you’re better at it.” And I said, “This is where all the connection happens—in the caregiving. If you miss out on that, you’ll miss out on the connection.”

He was like, “Oh, okay.” I think he was just nervous.

Jo-Ann: What a beautiful thing to say to him. That’s so impactful.

Sarah: Yeah, because connection was important to him—he wanted that bond with our baby, but he didn’t realize how much of it comes through caregiving.

Jo-Ann: Exactly. And you’re reminding me of a statistic: people say women are more nurturing, but research shows proximity changes hormones. When men spend more time caregiving, their “nurturing” hormones increase too.

Sarah: I’ve read that! It’s so cool. And it feels good too, right? The oxytocin.

Jo-Ann: Yes, exactly.

Sarah: Thank you so much. I think this will be really helpful for parents to understand what their kids are being exposed to.

Jo-Ann: My pleasure. I’m so glad you’re talking about this—it’s so important.

Sarah: I encourage everyone to check out your Substack and your book. We’ll link to both in the show notes. Before I let you go, I ask all my guests this: if you could go back in time to your younger parent self, what advice would you give yourself?

Jo-Ann: Oh boy, so much. I’d tell myself not to get caught up in the competitive stuff. At the time, I thought I wasn’t, but I was. I told myself I wasn’t a good enough mother because I wasn’t baking endless banana bread like my mom did, or because my house wasn’t as neat as someone else’s. But that’s just culture’s way of undermining women and making motherhood a competitive sport—when really, we all just need to have each other’s backs.

Sarah: Love that. Thank you so much, Jo-Ann, for coming on. What’s the best place for folks to find you?

Jo-Ann: My website is jo-annfinkelstein.com. My Substack is Raising Her Voice—jo-annfinkelstein.substack.com—and I’m also on Instagram and TikTok at jo-annfinkelstein.phd.

Sarah: Great. We’ll link to all those in the show notes. Thank you so much.

Jo-Ann: Thank you. I really appreciate it.

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