VO BOSS

Ever wanted to know what it takes to create a TV pilot? In this special episode, Anne is joined by Scott & Miranda Parkin to discuss Comet Casino. Comet Casino is a story centered around found family. It talks about those relationships & friendships that grow so near and dear that they feel like family. Scott & Miranda voice two of the characters, but were heavily involved in the creation of the show. From planning out the story to animating, Miranda was in charge and excited about this mid-century modern tale. After two year, the pilot episode is ready & shipped out to all the right people. So what's next for the duo? There may be more planning, creating, and meeting taking in their future…but you have to listen up to hear the whole story. Transcript It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone, welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I am so excited and pumped to have the Comet Casino team here with us, special guests Scott and Miranda Parkin. You guys, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Yay! Scott: Thank you so much for having me. You were an early supporter of this. (inaudible) merch on your show, you donated money, and now we're in the pitch phase. So we really owe a great debt of gratitude to the VO BOSS. Miranda: Yeah, seriously. Anne: Well, thank you. Thank you. I mean, it's not hard to support and love what you guys are doing. So for those BOSSes out there who may not be familiar with the famous Comet Casino team, I thought we would start with a little bit of an introduction of each of you so that the BOSSes can get to know you a little bit better. So let's start with Scott,'cause he's older. (laughs) So Scott, I mean actor, amazing improv instructor, voice actor, I mean everything. Tell us how you got started in the industry and where it's going (laughs) and your life. Miranda: And your social security number. Anne: Yes. Scott: No, that's horrible. That's horrible advice. I'm from Sacramento, California, and I started in radio when I was in college. I interned at KCAP, the home of rock. When I was around 20, 18, 19 in that sort of range, I was able to weasel my way onto the air with a guy named Kevin Anderson. He got fired, but he made a tape of the time we were together, sent it to Tulsa, Oklahoma. They had us come out for an audition. They asked me if I'd ever been to Oklahoma. And at the time I said, uh, the furthest east I've been is the Nevada side of Heavenly Valley, dude. And that is literally how we all spoke in Northern California. You were more like this, like, are you gonna put change on your car before you go to Tahoe? Went out there to Oklahoma and did that. And then I got fired again. Came back to Sacramento, got a gig in Dallas, was there for 11 years, got married, got — moved to Los Angeles in, I wanna say '98. Had a kid in 2000, got divorced in 2003, done voiceover and writing for television and acting, and I always say you gotta hit it from every angle possible, so I'll do most of the stuff that they'll pay creative wise. So Miranda's been raised on TV sets and in voiceover lobbies and all that. And she started in the business when she was about five. Miranda: Pretty crazy. Anne: So, yeah. So Miranda, let's talk about that because you did grow up in the business. Yeah. I'm so excited again to actually see you and talk with you. And so tell us how you kind of got started, and was this something that, because you were around it for all the time when you were small, is it something that you loved right away, or did you kind of grow into it? Miranda: Well, I mean, I feel like I loved it first because I was like, oh, I just really love reading. Like I love reading out loud. Like that very much fun. Scott: Nerd! Miranda: Shut up. Anne: That was me too. That was me too. Scott: Yeah. Miranda: I liked reading out loud. So when they were like, "hey, do you wanna read this thing out loud," a little five year old? And I was like, yeah, of course I wanna read that thing out loud. So I did. And then I was like, oh, oh, they like it when I do that. That's cool. I like that. You know, I was five, so I didn't really know, but it just made me feel happy, you know? Like I've always loved reading out loud. And then I got paid to talk about SeaWorld, and I'm like, I love animals and I love talking about whales, like of course I, I'm gonna do that. Anne: Was this when you were five or a little bit later on? Miranda: A little bit later on because I started when I was five, and then it was kind of went until eight or nine I think. I think nine was when I, I got the -- Scott: When the hammer got dropped. Miranda: Yeah. Yeah. I got the job of, uh, Lucy in a direct to DVD Peanuts movie. And my mom was like, no, you can't do that. So I was like, oh, alright. I really like reading out loud. I really like the Peanuts. Scott: But her dad was a voiceover actor, and anything that had something to do with me was -- Anne: Ah. Scott: Yeah. Anne: Okay. So there's the six degrees here I think because you said Lucy, right? You read for the — Miranda: Right. Anne: Okay. So my maiden name is Lucy. Okay? Scott: Excellent. Is that true? Anne: Yes, it's very true. It's very, because people called me Miss Lucy when I was a teacher, and then they would sing, Miss Lucy had a steamboat. The steamboat had a bell. Exactly. Scott: I forgot you were a teacher. My mom was a teacher for 35 years. I have I have so many teachers throughout our family. Anne: Well, so that's number one. And number two is that when I was young, when I was about six, when I was in kindergarten, I love to read out loud as well. And here's where my claim to fame, my creative claim to fame is that I wrote books. I wrote books about Nibbles the Rabbit. And as a kindergartner, I read them to the first graders. So that's my claim to fame. I mean, I -- Miranda: Kind of a power move. Anne: I mean, so Miranda, if I could only be half as good of, and I illustrated and wrote, and you know what I mean? Which is, that's incredible. Miranda: That's, that's amazing. Anne: You do everything. And so I just feel like the apple doesn't far fall from the tree there, I think; the writer, artist, voice actor, actor. Scott: I can't draw a stick figure without uh, without help. So. Miranda: That's true. He can draw a palm tree and a lightning bolt. Anne: There you go. Very good. Scott: And I can draw an oak tree too though. Miranda: And an oak tree. Oak tree. Sorry, forgot about that. One of the three. Scott: Yeah. Anne: I got good at drawing a rabbit as a kindergarten. But other than that -- Miranda: Nibbles the rabbit. Anne: — that's kind of where it stopped. Although I always was in awe of people who could draw. And so I want to actually talk about Comet Casino because that's really why I wanted to bring you here so that we can talk about the whole process. Because BOSSes out there, if you're listening, the whole concept of Comet Casino is BOSS from start to as it evolves. Because you have encompassed all areas of the creative arts, all areas of funding, of marketing, of starting something and seeing it grow and seeing it evolve. So I love the evolution of Comet Casino. So before we do that, let me show the BOSSes a little preview of what we have here. So let's do this first. Scott: Can we set it up real quick? Anne: Yeah. Let, we're gonna set it up right now. Scott: This is not a trailer. There's no voiceover or anything like that. This is the first 90 seconds of the pilot, and the shuttle attendant is the lovely great Delisle Griffin. And we love it. And so you get an idea of where our story takes place, who are the principals, and what's going on in the first 90 seconds. The whole thing, the whole pilot presentation is just over 10 minutes. There you go. Miranda: Yeah, there we go. Anne: All right. We're gonna give you guys the first 90 seconds. All right. Here we go. >> Attention passengers. We will be landing shortly on Luparif Omari, please return to your seats. If you've morphed during the flight, please regenerate and buckle up. Okay? And remember, as long as you look like you're gambling, they gotta keep bringing you drinks. Good luck. >> Luparif Omari. Everybody knows it as the loop. Number one adult playground in the galaxy and the armpit of the fucking universe. Everyone is thrilled when they get here and broken, disillusioned when they leave. That's just after a weekend. I spent the first 18 years of my life here. On the loop, after high school, you pretty much have three choices: bartending school, dealer school or alcoholic gambler. I wanted something more. So I went to law school on the nearest planet. After graduation I took a really good job as a defense attorney. It's difficult and none of it comes easy, but okay, it's somewhere else, and that's all that matters. So what am I doing back here? My dad, owner of the formerly luxurious Comet Casino passed away. How? Uh, he just stopped breathing while a guy was choking him to death, which on the loop is considered natural causes. The loop is 100 miles of casinos, clubs, and general debauchery crammed into a thin band of oxygen. Everything else is toxic. My dad used to drop off associates in the desert when it was time for them to die of natural causes. >> Hurry. Hurry, everyone. Anne: Haha, awesome. I love it. And can I tell you that honestly, when I first heard it, I love the beginning, right, with the introduction. But Miranda, when you start telling the story, I teach like storytelling to students for years. And you have such a beautiful, wonderful presentation of storytelling in that, like it is so damn impressive. Miranda: Hey, I used to love reading stories out loud. Now I do it all the time. Anne: If Scott knows me, I don't say that lightly. I love, love the performance. Scott: That's not — this whole thing, this has been two years in the making, and we directed all these legends who are friends of ours and have always supported Miranda. And if Miranda wasn't able to hold their own with these legends, it doesn't work. All of what we've done, it just doesn't work. So. Miranda: That was one thing that I got scared about. Like I know literally like after we like got all these people to do it, and they were like, all right, now it's time to record your part. And I'm like, oh, I have to actually, I have to go up against these — oh my God. Not, not go up against, but like work with, like be in the same cartoon as, and I'm like, oh my God, that's like a dream come true regardless of where this thing goes. Scott: Yes. And frightening as hell. And same for me. 'Cause Miranda actually does video games and animation. I don't do so much of either of those. So after asking these people and then having to, you know, what was really cool was that we recorded our parts at SoundBox LA with Tim Friedlander. So first Miranda and Tim directed me, and then we switched, and Tim and I directed Miranda. So that was really, it was really cool. And he's been so supportive and known Miranda for a very long time. So it was, it was just really cool to do our parts at Tim's with Tim directing. Miranda: Yeah. 'Cause he's such a good friend and such a great dude. And he supported it all the way through. It just seemed like a natural fit. Anne: So let's talk about, how did it all start? Miranda: Ooh, ooh, ooh. I've got this one. Anne: Okay. Scott: Keep it tight and bright. Miranda: So essentially it started as an FBI agent gets teleported into space and works off her debt at a space casino. So that was like our initial idea. And I wanted to do something Scott: That was all Miranda's -- Miranda: Yeah. And then I was like, okay, well the FBI thing is kind of silly, stupid. Let's just go with a mother-daughter story about a girl that actually lives in the casino and went to the casino and like lived at the casino, and her mom was the boss and she had to come back. And then we were just like, okay, let's cut the mom. Because I don't know how to tell a mother daughter story. I know how to tell a father-daughter story. So let's make a father-daughter story about a dysfunctional -- Scott: Well Miranda, you have to be honest, Ed Jager, our head writer and 23 year veteran television writer came in and said, I'm killing the mom. There's no story there. It's a father-daughter story. It's all about the daughter. Going away. Wanting to get the hell outta home, and then having to come back and then finding out that, ah, you know what? I hate this place, but I work here. It works. I have a connection here, and I'm really good at all the jobs I'm doing. It's the Joan Didian. You can't go home but you, maybe you can kind of thing. Does that make sense? Miranda: See the thing is like at the beginning of it, it morphed and switched. But I always wanted to make it a space casino. Always, always, always. Anne: But then, let me backtrack here. So you're telling me the beginnings of the story, but what's the beginnings of the idea, Miranda? Was it something that you said, I wanna create? So not many people in this industry, and I know BOSSes out there, this is the whole enchilada, this is the writing, the artistry, the production, the casting. So did you just one day say, I wanna make a show like (laughs)? Scott: We pitch ideas back and forth and have written a bunch of stuff, but Miranda always said that whenever they go animated shows, they have an episode at a casino. But I forget how you said it, M, I'm sorry. Miranda: So like in a lot of sci-fi media, there's always like a one-off episode with a casino. Like in Cowboy Bebop, there's a one-off episode with a space casino. In Star Wars, they go to a space casino in one of the newest Star Wars movies. In like Rick and Morty, they go to a Dave and Busters type thing called Blips and Shits. And I'm just like, why don't you stay there? There's so much potential. You have beings from all over the galaxy. You know, you have people that go to Vegas for conventions. You've got people that go to Vegas in sororities. You have gangsters and mobsters and bachelor parties Anne: I love it. Scott: Corporate convention. Always bringing different people. And if you put it out in space, 200 years in the future, the hell knows what -- Anne: Right. So many stories. I mean, I think so many stories can evolve from that. So yeah, there's longevity there. Yeah. Scott: The other thing we really liked was the found family because Miranda's been, was at my house from age 16 on solo and moved out two years ago. So big on found family. At my house growing up there was always an extra person. Somebody that just got divorced or some teenager had been kicked out of their house. So we're big on found family. A found family is such a lovely story. You can take in so many different directions, and in Miranda's situation, it's right here, found family. Miranda: But also it's relatable to everyone. Whether you have a good relationship with your parents or not, you always have friends. You know, friends are the family that you choose. I know it's cheesy, but everyone can relate to it. Everyone has a friend that you feel like you're a sibling. Anne: So then you had this idea that you wanted to do this. The two of you were bouncing ideas and then you said, yes, this sounds amazing. Let's get a writer. Like what happened after that? Just get a writer involved. Scott: Like I said, we've had multiple ideas, and I think they're very solid ideas, but Miranda is a voracious performer and artist. They like to keep going and going and going. So if we didn't get something with legs on it early, it got set aside and fan art and something else, or voiceover or her life just got in. But this was much more substantial. And it has something that Miranda really likes is retro futurism and 50's -- Miranda: Like mid-century modern atomic age type stuff, Jetsons style. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Scott: They really enjoyed drawing. So it was very inspirational. And then I showed it to my buddy Ed. We had made a little video presentation and it's 1000 degrees different than that, than the thing that we first made. But he goes, this is great. We showed it to Swampy Marsh, the creator of Phineas and Ferb, who's sort of Miranda's mentor and my good friend. And then we all got together with a couple of the writers from Gary Unmarried, that show my buddy Ed wrote about my life that was on CBS, and other writers that I'd worked with on their pilots. And we all got a room and sort of hammered out a thing. And then the found family thing, or how each of the casino employees used to work at the casino as a crooner or a fighter or something like that. And now the old man me has hired him to work on the, on the thing because they're no longer viable as performers. So we had that, and then Ed just took it off and built this great daughter goes away and comes back to save the found family sort of thing. Miranda: And it was so well done and well-written. And we pitched on jokes, and I would be like, oh, this character probably wouldn't say that, or this and that. But most of it was Ed really. He just brought this huge heart to it. Scott: Ed started on Roseanne and worked on Darma and Greg and so many great shows. And I was a joke guy, so you know, we were able to make the jokes crackle, and then you just crank it, crank it down, crank it down until it's tight. And then we hired Swampy Marsh and Bernie Patterson at Surfer Jack to do the staging animatics. So each time they go through, it's single line, really rudimentary, but it gives you a good idea of where everyone's going and what it will look like. I think they did four passes there. They hired Miranda to work on small projects. So Miranda got to work on her own pilot there. And then I think after we had our thank you party last summer at Tim's, Miranda said, I want it all to be -- I have so many ideas. I want more characters, I want some different backgrounds. This would be funnier if a chop from above. And so Miranda said, I wanna do all of this. So she redid everything. And so every frame you see in the thing is her character's shirt background, a couple backgrounds. We hired her roommate Lauren to do, really wonderful stuff. But almost all of it is Miranda's vision. So there you go. And then laid in all the sound. Tim West at Rebel Alliances donated hours and hours and hours of time. So the sound design is really good. Adam Gutman, Miranda, you can talk about. Miranda: Yeah. He's like a, he's a Disney composer. He does like all the music for these Star Wars land rides, and Amphibia, and he's worked on Greatest Showman and all these things. And I did a lot of work with him during the lockdown, and he had this like musical project, and I was able to do some animatics for him. And then after that, you know, we kept in contact and then he was like, if you don't let me do the music for Comet Casino, I will be very sad if you don't let me just do it. You know. And I was like -- Scott: Of course, of course. Miranda: He had all these like great kind of almost hotel lobby tracks from like a Star Wars thing that he worked on. And he's just like, I can tweak this and do this. I'm like, that is so cool. It was crazy. Anne: So a few things that I wanna point out to the BOSSes out there, because again, I think a lot of people that listen to the VO BOSS podcast they're thinking very much in just voiceover. And again, the scope of this project is so amazing, and I'm hearing a couple of things that just keep coming back to me. Number one is having a great network, right? And having a wonderful team to help put this together. And so I think that networking is such an important thing to have a successful -- Scott: Without, without it, this wouldn't exist. Anne: Yeah. Scott: I called in and asked every favor I had to get us at this point. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Scott: Listen, I don't constantly work for free, but I work with friends and things I like mm-hmm and everyone liked all these people that are in this, Maurice Lamar, Billy West, Tara Strong, Luray, Newman, Mindy Sterling — all of them have known Miranda since about three years old because I was asked to be divorced when Miranda was three. So I had her with me, and they all sort of watched her grow up and watched her. So when I said, hey you guys, this is what we're doing, would you be willing? And they all said the same, some version of yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Tara Strong's like, just tell me where to talk. They didn't owe me anything, but I, we asked favors. Miranda: And one thing that I was so happy about is they've always been, 'cause we're, you know, a lot of us are at the same agency. So like from being a kid, like not not a kid, but like, you know, in my 20s, early, early teenage years, they were always like, if you make something, if you make something, you know, put me in it. Please. So, you know, and then we finally followed through with an idea, and now it was like, I can do that. I can ask these people and they'll say yes. And that's just a such a great feeling to have, to have such a great support network of all these incredible talented people. I'm really honored. Scott: And Miranda designed each of the characters for each of those actors. Aunt Maisie was designed for Tara Strong. Gary Anthony Williams is Hendrix. So that's kind of a cool thing too. But you definitely have to be willing to work with -- I mean I've worked on so many pilots that got shot and didn't get to air. I don't get any money from that. I just get the experience providing and supporting. So when I have something, I call those guys and they're like, yeah, let's get together and write this. Anne: So then yet another thing that I wanna talk about that I think is so important in the development of this is you're still pursuing this, you're still getting funding for this. And so -- Scott: We've just started this phase. Anne: Right. Scott: We, it's taken two years to get up to that. Anne: Yeah. And I think that there's something to be said for the level of commitment obviously, that you have to have for this. I mean in my brain, there's no way that it can't not be successful for you guys. I mean that's the way I feel. I don't know. Miranda: I honestly think it's successful already. I am just, I am happy to be involved with these incredible people. I'm happy to have this part of my portfolio, and I'm ready to get this, this art in front of people who work in amazing studios. Like all these studio people are going to be seeing my art. So that was like the goal from early on was to get my art in front of studios, and whether it gets made or not, it's just a step in the right direction regardless. Anne: I love that. Scott: The beginning premise was to get experience at storyboarding character design and backgrounds. So when we hired Surfer Jack, the idea was that Miranda would sit on Bernie's shoulder and watch him staging storyboard. But then Swampy screwed that up by hiring Miranda before they even started on the pilot to be head of small projects there. So the idea was to get all of her stuff in front of as many people as possible. And because of Ed -- his theatrical representation is APA — they saw that 90-second trailer and called us in for a strategy meeting. So now we're actually represented by APA. Anne: Love it. That's huge. Scott: They're not only showbiz adjacent, but they represent people like 50 Cent, Mark Ruffalo, you know, that kinda people. So now, next week the pilot goes out to every animation studio and every streaming service, full support of the head of animation at APA. And they'll bug them to watch it and then hopefully take a meeting. So we already won because all of that stuff is in front of them. And Miranda -- by the way, she's like, in my early twenties — these are your early 20's; you're 28 (?) until next week, you know. Anne: That's phenomenal. Miranda, I love that you said that it's already a success because it truly is in my eyes, and that's why I feel like it can't be anything but a success already. I've seen it evolve, I've seen it progress, and to me I'm in awe. I think it's amazing. I love the evolution, I love the whole creative process. And I think that it would help BOSSes to maybe wrap their heads around the whole production process of a creative project because I think it will help us to become better actors, become better business people, understanding the networking that you guys are going through and the process to get this produced and and get this out and see if — it's like a big huge audition. Right? Scott: It is. The other thing is, I told you I don't book animation. So what we did was build a pilot and write ourselves into the pilot. So if I book animation, it'd likely be something that we wrote then Miranda drew. So I think that's a really important thing for anybody getting into it. Don't wait to be asked to the dance. Get out there and start dancing. Miranda: I also think like the thing about networking that you said like Swampy, a friend of ours, you never know who you are going to meet or who's gonna hire you or who's gonna be your friend and let you work on their project or whatever. 'Cause like, you know, I hired my roommate to work on some of the backgrounds for Comet. And the networking is so important in this industry, especially with animation, the way that it is right now. 'Cause animation is very weird and not an incredible industry to get into right now. 'Cause everything is very up in the air. Scott: What do you mean, not a great industry? Do you mean it's uncertain? Miranda: Yeah, it's very uncertain and there's lots of things. Scott: Voiceover and acting -- Miranda: No, no, but like animation in particular, a lot of animated projects are getting canned. Like they took so much off of HBO Max and Netflix. Like all these animated projects on Netflix. Scott: That happens in every facet of the entertainment -- Miranda: Right. That's true. Anne: Ebb and flow. Scott: It's building your house on mud and hoping for the best. Miranda: Yeah. Anne: Yeah. Miranda: But you know, like you just never know who is gonna hire you. You never know who's gonna be part of your story next. So. Scott: It's also a good reason to be nice to everybody. Miranda: Exactly. It costs some money. Scott: 'Cause you never know. And that's why I always say, hey people, I know we have, we're represented by an agency, but please if I sent you the pilot and said, hey, send it to creators that you know, it's always great when something comes to the same point from different connections. Anne: Sure. Absolutely. Scott: Oh, this is the pilot. Oh this is the guy that Apple, the Apple guy sent me this. So I believe you gotta get as many lines in the water as you can. Anne: Absolutely. And that networking completely helps that. And I think that it's just something that's so important for us to know as we progress in this industry because this industry's uncertain, voice acting. Oh, oh my gosh. You know? Scott: Also the other thing is Miranda's not stopping. She's doing Comet art for the pitch deck. Should we get the meeting, I feel confident people are gonna say, hey come in. We like it. We'd like to chat, doing that. But she's also prepping a bunch of stuff to submit for Smiling Friends. She just had a meeting with the storyboard director from Mitchells and the Machines. So you know, you can't just go, well, we've got our pilot. Let's just sit back and let the money roll in. Miranda: Not over until it's over. Anne: That's not over. Miranda: It doesn't start till it starts. Scott: Ah, I like that one. Anne: Yeah. Now lemme ask you, Comet Casino, what's next? What's the next step? Scott: Next week. Well, Miranda's doing art for the pitch deck. Hopefully it goes out to all the stupid buddies, the the titmouses, the -- Miranda: Bento boxes, the tornates, the 20th Century Fox. Scott: It's gonna go out to every relevant animation company and every streamer, Amazon, Apple, all of those. And then we clear our schedule because we'll be just meeting so many people and having a bidding war on the Comet scene. Anne: There you go. Miranda: One would hope. One would hope. Scott: We still, did you get one of these, Anne? Anne: I did not get a bag. Scott: We wanna send you a bag as a gift from the Comet Casino. Anne: Oh, I love it. Scott: And we'll put one of the lucky chips in there too. Anne: Oh, I love that. Scott: I always keep 'em in my pocket when I audition and I booked three commercials with one ofthese in my pocket. Anne: Well, thank you. So let me ask you guys, before we go, first of all, how can somebody buy Comic Casino merch? Where do they go? Miranda: They go to the Comet Casino gift shop, and it's the first thing that comes up on Google. I'll also send you the link so you can put it in the description of whatever podcast. Anne: The Comet Casino gift shop. And guys, I have a few things. I have a few things from the Comet Casino, but I do not have a bag, so I would love that. Scott: We'll send you the retro airline bag. Anne: Thank you. Scott: Cool thing where you put the cardboard on the bottom, and they put hard glasses in the bottom. Anne: I love it. Scott: And then we still have a bunch of shirts. We don't have a lot of stuff. We got hit pretty hard. Oh, we do have some of these handmade pendants that are really, really cool. We only have a -- I think there's only five of those left. They're really, really, really stunning. Anne: That's very cool. Scott: Our friend Lori Magna is this artisan in Boston, and she made, she does all the little -- I mean -- Anne: Oh, I love it. Miranda: Aren't they so cool? Anne: I love it. So Comet Casino gift shop. Miranda: Yes, indeed. Anne: And how can someone follow you, Miranda? Miranda: Oh, well my Instagram is Parkinart, Parkinart. No spaces, no caps, no nothing. No, no underscores or dots or dits or numbers. Anne: Perfect. Scott: You can see me on a Tide commercial Anne: Ah yes. Miranda: And his Instagram. His Instagram -- Scott: Hang on, I forgot to say we just got these, the premade -- Miranda: The booklets. Scott: Big comic books with all the concept art. They're 22 pages, and we just got these. There was a misprint. We got to help with the pitch and they did a misprint -- Anne: Will you be signing? Scott: We're signing. Miranda will sign. I'll sign it. It doesn't really matter if I sign it, but Miranda's gonna sign it, and then if you get other cast members to sign it, you got something there. Anne: Very nice. Scott: That'll be up on here very quickly as well. Anne: Very nice. Scott: Anne, thank you so much. So sweet of you to have us on. Anne: Thank you, guys. It was amazing. So much fun. And I'm looking forward to interviewing you again after it gets picked up and you guys -- Scott: Absolutely. And remember, we're voice first, and we have a very long memory and we remember everybody that was so supportive and helpful. And believe me, we'll be working hard. We don't know who's gonna buy it or what the situation will be. They may buy it outright, tell us to go away, you know what I mean? So we have no idea what that looks like. But if we have any say in it, we're gonna bring people to audition. Everybody gets up to bat, we're gonna write your names as a character, spread the wealth. Anne: Love it. And your cat wants to say hello. I love it. You know, I have three cats, so I'm all about that. Well fantastic, guys. Thank you so much again. It was amazing. So much fun. Love, love, love what you're doing. Miranda: Thank you so much for having us on. Anne: Absolutely. Scott: You've been so supportive, Anne. You jumped on the bandwagon and gave away merch very early on. This was an expensive proposal, right? Hiring an animation company to do four passes, and then I was sending random money to not take any other work while they worked on this thing. So it's really, really helpful to have such support. The main thing is, it's just really fun to see the cool logo and all the great art on it. It's very nice. Anne: Absolutely. All right, well BOSSes, here's your chance to use your voice to make an immediate difference in our world and give back to the communities that give to you. Besides giving to Comet Casino, you can go to 100Voiceswhocare.org to find out more and commit. And also big shout out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can network communicate like BOSS. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week and we will see you next week. Bye! Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Great sound is an important factor in booking voice over work. In this episode, Anne is joined by audio engineer & musician Gillian Pelkonen to discuss the basics of audio for voice. Sound engineers listen for clean, crisp vocal sound. This is the kind of sound that helps you book more jobs, and it's the kind of sound that makes you stand out from the crowd. In order to get great voice over work, it's important that you have great sound. But what exactly is "great sound"? Is it the same as "high-quality audio"? The best way to solve audio issues is to address them before recording. Incorrect recording levels, too much room tone & improper mic technique are common audio issues. Feeling lost & overwhelmed with your sound? Anne & Gillian tell you all you need to know... Transcript It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza, and I am excited to bring a very special guest to the show today, Gillian Pelkonen. Gillian is an audio engineer, musician and creative freelancer living and working in upstate New York, which is where I am from. Woohoo. Gillian: Woo. Anne: Uh, Gillian received her masters in audio arts from Syracuse University and has been working in audio engineering ever since. Gillian, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited to talk to you. Gillian: Anne, thank you so much for having me. It is so exciting to be on the show. Obviously I've listened to it a lot in the past few years, so -- Anne: Well, thank you. Thank you Gillian: -- definitely trippy to be on this side of it. But yeah, thank you for having me. I'm excited to chat about audio. Anne: Yeah, so I'm excited number one because you are from like practically my hometown. My family's still up there and I also love female engineers because that's kind of where I started as well. When I graduated from college, I went to school for engineering, not audio engineering, but engineering. And so I have uh, a soft spot in my heart for female engineers. So tell the BOSSes how you got started and what got you interested in audio engineering. Gillian: Well, we are few and far between, unfortunately. I am a musician as well. I don't really say that, it's a weird word for me to say, but I've been playing guitar and singing and writing songs for as long as I could talk. It's been my outlet for everything. And I was working on a lot of my music in college and at recording studios on campus, and I couldn't find women to work with. I did have one female audio engineer that I worked with and that was the best experience I had, and I found her a bit later in the experience. But up until then I just didn't understand. And obviously gender is a construct. It's not really about that. But I found that I worked really well with women and people who were good listeners and who felt like they were as passionate about what I was trying to create as I was. And eventually I found that nobody was, so I just wanted to go learn it myself and just know how to do it and make music, and that's what got me into audio and now kind of in the voiceover AI sphere 'cause they're super connected. Anne: Fantastic. So now you also sing as well? Gillian: Yes. Yeah. Anne: Oh wow. You are multifaceted. I love it. So let's talk a little bit about audio because for people just entering into the industry, it is I think one of the most scariest things because a lot of people are not necessarily technically adept at creating or editing audio. And so it really becomes a thing to enter in the voiceover industry. It's like, like not only do they have to learn how to perform and be authentic and real, and now all of a sudden they've gotta figure out, well, how am I going to prepare this audio to send to my client? And that just becomes a whole different thing, especially with technology. And I've always said that to be successful in this industry, not only is it great to have that creative artistic talent in your performance, but you do have to be adept at technology because you're going to have to be able to handle that audio, edit that audio, deliver that audio to your client. And if that is not something that you're comfortable with, you need to actually get comfortable with it. So what would you say is the most important thing for people starting out in terms of their audio? Gillian: That is a big question. Anne: Yeah, I know, with probably an hour's worth of answers, I'm sure. Gillian: Many hours worth of answers. I think for people starting out, the best thing you can do is, I hate to say work with a professional, but that might be a starting point just to understand what you might need because the hard part is not the audio. Everyone makes it like that's the daunting task because it's not what you're comfortable with, but I know that the acting is really difficult and the mic is just the thing that picks that up. And so if you're gonna go to a coach to work with your acting and develop that, why would you not go to an audio professional to get the right mic for you to get the right setup and get started with that? Because with audio, obviously the editing and that's a learning curve and process, which you will get comfortable with, the more you work on it, same way you get better at auditioning. But getting started with a professional will stop all those stumbles that you might find along the way with just trying to figure it out yourself. Because it's not complicated. But there's definitely a lot of ways to get lost on the path if you're not with the proper information. Anne: Yeah. And I think too, the thing for me when I started it was all about the room, the studio. And I think you don't know what you don't know. And that's why I love that you said, you know, why wouldn't you work with a professional? Because we go to coaches for performance? Why wouldn't you go to an audio professional to get help with your studio? And I think that's fantastic advice. And it's something that I ended up doing because for me it was, oh my gosh, I have to say it was so frustrating. I remember at one point I didn't have it, and I sent some audio to a client, and they're like, Anne, it sounds like you're talking into a tube. And I was mortified, and I was like, oh my gosh, maybe I shouldn't be in this industry. And I was so frustrated, I remember like physically crying, and I don't like to admit that, but I was so frustrated. And at the time it was hard to know because I started so long ago, the internet wasn't quite a thing where we were in community groups yet. And so I didn't even know how to reach out or who to reach out to. So I think it's wonderful now that there are lots of people that we can reach out to. And I, for one, when I have a new student, I always recommend that they talk to an audio engineer to get their environment set first, and then it becomes like, oh my, my gosh. Well, what mic? And I think you're probably gonna tell us that the environment might be a little more important than that. So let's talk about what's important in a good environment for us to record in? Gillian: Well, there's so many things to say, and just going back one second, there is no shame in crying over figuring out audio issues. Anne: Thank you. I feel better. Gillian: I have to say that I have at some point because they're very frustrating. It's so easy to get your wires crossed, and I'm sure we'll have longer conversations about this, but it's definitely very frustrating 'cause your voice is coming out of your mouth. Like it's like I hear it, I hear it. Why is it not in my computer? So the frustration is real, I understand that. And the reason that I do say higher professionals is because so much of your valuable time will be wasted troubleshooting these things that someone like me or any of the other pros doing this will be able to diagnose and fix in a couple seconds. Anne: Yeah. You have the ear. You have the ear for it, which I think most people starting out in voiceover, if you don't even know the industry, how can you expect to have an ear for it? Gillian: Exactly. And it's funny, when I was in school, I felt that there was not a lot of sound representation. I was initially in school for TV and film. And one of the first sound classes I took, the professor on the syllabus said, sound is 50% of a picture and nobody cares about it. Like picture being a movie, and for voiceover it's a hundred percent. So it's even more essential to have it, you know, that's your introduction to a client. And like you were saying, if your audio comes in not sounding right, you don't sound as professional. Doesn't matter how your read is. So that's something. Anne: And especially since the pandemic, right? Because we can't go to professional studios anymore. So it's more important than ever that our home studios are set up properly. And even just like, again, starting out, you don't really know. And I will say that there's a ton of information on the internet. But again, there's a ton of information on the internet. So how do newcomers to the industry discern what's the good information and what's not good information? Because I certainly didn't go to school for audio engineering and I know that that's an entire field, obviously. So again, so for our environment then, what's important, what's important for us to set that up? Gillian: Well, I think the most important thing is, within a voice, something that I listen for is crisp, clean, natural sound. I want it to sound like we're sitting together talking, but maybe a little bit better, because you know, with all the equipment you have the ability to boost some frequencies in your voice. We're basically, with audio, we're trying to mimic what our ear hears, but there's this whole other, I'm not going to get into it, but there's something called psychoacoustics, which is how panning works and stereo. And it's basically using the computer and things we can do with audio and stereo field to trick your ear into hearing things that are not exactly as they are. So we're using plugins, EQ, all of those things to make you sound your best. But some issues that I see happen a lot is, you know, incorrect recording levels, too much room tone, too much stuff going on in your environment, improper mic placement, just not speaking into the right part of the mic or having it placed the wrong way. And then there's just textural issues of needing plug-ins or other things to manipulate your voice to get it sounding its best. Anne: Got it. So in terms of recording levels, right, I'm still thinking about the room and, and you said things are happening -- is there such a thing -- some students have mentioned this to me -- as being soundproof so that, oh gosh, I live next to an airport or the landscapers out there -- is there a way that you can create a studio that is soundproof that you won't hear those things? Gillian: Yes. I think that it's going to be wildly out of a regular person's budget because like when you go into a recording studio, the way that they do that is they have floating floors, and basically you build a room inside of a room, and there's a bunch of ways to do it. But when you're in an isolation booth, you know there's the building and then there's the studio which is within it. So there's gonna be acoustic paneling and other things in there that help with the reflections of the sound. But realistically you'd need to build something. But that's not the only way to get really good isolated sound. You can do DIY things. I mean people go into closets to record for a reason. They're really good. I mean, I don't know if it's sustainable, you know; you need a booth if you're gonna be doing it full-time or something. But that tiny confined space that stops any reflections of sound, which would make echoes in the background, the padding of clothing that would kind of dampen everything, and that just makes it really clear for the mic to be picking up your voice. Anne: Got it. So then if you've got a decent environment, right, that doesn't have a lot of hard surfaces and you've got the absorption so that you're not getting echo or reflection back, what then is the next thing that we wanna look at in terms of getting great sound from our studios? Gillian: Well, I think a really important thing is recording level. I think making sure that you're coming in at the right volume, and it's kind of like, you know, Goldilocks situation. You don't wanna be too loud, you don't wanna be too quiet, you wanna kind of be just right. And a way that I gauge this, I don't really like giving numbers as like, if you are at this number, you're perfect. You're at the, you know, that's really hard. I want everyone to learn to trust your ears. But there are a few ways to measure it. So within your DAW, there's usually gonna be like a colorful meter that's going. And when you're checking that out, I like to say to be three quarters of the way up. So you don't wanna be lower than half, you don't wanna be towards the top. And I know I work primarily in Pro Tools. I know most people don't and most voice actors shouldn't. There's no need. But it's really green at the three quarters away mark, and then it starts to go orange and red and you never wanna be in the red. That audio will become unusable. But that's how I like to look at it. And I think it's simple enough for someone to look at within their DAW and see. Anne: Now you mentioned something that, and I don't wanna get too off track 'cause I got a couple other questions I'd love for you to answer, but you mentioned that Pro Tools wasn't necessarily something that a voice actor needed. And I remember, oh gosh, back in the day, Pro Tools Lite used to come with the audio interface and so I started using Pro Tools Lite, and it was a bear. to learn. And I think that was also another thing that scared me in terms of how am I gonna be able to succeed in this industry if I cannot figure out how to use this audio editor? So if I can just kind of divert just for a minute, tell us what kind of an audio editor or your DAW, right, it's also known as a DAW, is good for today's voice talent when they first start out? Gillian: Yeah. So DAW is, I just throw the terms around 'cause sometimes I forget like this is my language, but it's a digital audio workstation. So that's really anything you're gonna be working in. I use Pro Tools because it's a great multi-track recorder. A lot of times when I'm working in music, we usually sit around 50 to 100 tracks going on. Maybe not at at one time eventually, but you know when you're doing voiceover you have one, it's a mono recording for the most part. So I know a lot of people use Twisted Wave. I've used Twisted Wave. I think that it's great. Anne: I love Twisted Wave. Gillan: I know people use Audition. Audition is great. I think that really, especially starting out, you don't need anything more than Twisted Wave. I think it's affordable, I think it's great. I spend most of my time in Pro Tools. I dabble in Logic and Audition and even Audition is a little bit complicated. I can imagine being overwhelmed by it for the functionality. I don't know if it's necessary really, but I don't wanna knock it. I know people love it. Anne: Shh. Don't tell anybody, but I totally agree with you. And the reason why is because I think I started with Pro Tools Lite and I was like, oh my God, this is too much. I don't think I need it. And I think to reiterate what you're saying, we are voice actors. Unless we're producers or audio engineers, we don't need multi-tracks. I mean unless I'm putting sound effects or music under, I don't need that capacity. Gillian: Which you can do in Twisted Wave. Anne: And Twisted Wave for me is so simple in terms of, it's like Audacity on crack, I always say that , because Audacity is free. You get what you pay for and it's wonderful and I think a lot of people do that. But I think if you have a Mac, Twisted Wave is the way to go. What about a PC though for your DAW? What do you think? I mean 'causeTwisted Wave doesn't run natively on PC. They have an online version if I remember correctly. Or they're coming out with, I think. Gillian: They do have an online version and from what I know they are working on it for PC. I have not had a PC since the early 2000s, my first computer. So really, I don't know, I think maybe trying the web browser version for that would work. And you know, I'd have to get a better answer for that 'cause honestly I live in the Mac universe. That's where I work. Anne: Well, and if we wanted to get into arguments with people that listen to this about which is better Mac or PC for audio editing, I will say my own personal story is when I started outta college, I worked on systems that were Unix based. And so I was a Unix girl, and then Windows kind of came up the ranks. And when I was working in education we started using Windows servers, and so I became a PC girl. And then ultimately when I started to go into voiceover part-time and then full-time of course, I bought a really kicked up version of a Dell laptop with the most memory and everything that I thought was gonna be my computer for audio. And my audio didn't work; it wasn't compatible. And I was so upset 'cause I spent a lot of money upgrading the RAM and upgrading the space and doing everything to have a really great computer. And it didn't work. And so for many years people said Mac, it just works for audio and creative endeavors. And I just said, well let me try it and I'll tell you what, I haven't looked back. And that's my story and I'm sticking to it. BOSSes out there, I'm not saying that one's better than the other. However, my personal experience is that the Mac just, things just work audio wise. You hook up any particular microphone or audio interface, boom. It recognizes it. I've not had issues. Gillian: Yeah. I mean, I lived my entire life in the Mac ecosystem. Like that's how I organize my life. Obviously I've had friends and people I know -- my boyfriend has a PC, I don't know how to work it. . I mean I'm learning, but it's just, yeah. Apples and oranges, literally it is. But I think that there's a way to do it if you have a pc, don't go out and buy a Mac because we said we like them. There's a way to to work around it. But realistically, even going back to the Audition versus Twisted Wave, it's all about the interface. And really as a voice actor, from my understanding and as I work as an engineer, speed is so important. And so if you're gonna simplify your DAW for you to be able to work in it faster, like it's basically up to you where you're the most comfortable. So that's really the moral of the story. Anne: That's a great point. It's a great point because, guys, unless you're outsourcing people to do your audio editing, you do spend a considerable amount of time, once you've recorded something, editing that. For me, I think I started off it was like a 1:5 ratio where if I did an hours worth of recording, it would take me five hours to edit it, and then as you get better -- you know, I'm about at a one to three ratio. I can't get any quicker than that. But if you're going to be spending a, a majority of your time editing, and again, like I said, unless you're outsourcing, I mean you might as well be comfortable and really consider the speed of which you can work and things that can help you to be more efficient. Let's talk a little bit about -- I see in the forums there's always, what's your noise floor? And so what's the importance of having a low noise floor? Gillian: So noise floor is basically the sound that your gear makes because if you think about it, voice goes into a microphone, goes through an XLR cable or maybe directly into the computer, through the interface, back into the computer. That process makes a little bit of electronic noise. Anne: And so I didn't know that actually. Gillian: The term noise floor describes that noise. And usually they're related to room tone because, the sound around you, those are just things that end up needing to be taken out and they're kind of like white noisy or they're not, you know, the sound of a door slamming, but they are noise that end up on your audio file. So it's really important to make sure that your gain is set properly on your interface because if my gain is really quiet and I do a recording, and I need it to be loud enough to listen to, then you're gonna be stuck boosting your clip gain. And then the noise floor, everything, like all the sound that your electronics make, are gonna be super loud and proportion to the recorded sound. So that's where it all gets related. Same with room tone. Like if there's too much going on in your room, and it's picking that up more than your voice, then there's gonna be a lot more of it to take out, if that makes sense. Anne: And I can always tell like a beginner, because they don't have their levels set. And so what'll happen is they'll set their gain like really low and then they can play their recording and they won't hear any noise. But yet when you, let's say, normalize it or you bring the the levels up, then all of a sudden it's like got some sort of shh sound and, and then that's when people are like, well no, I didn't normalize it because it makes this noise. And I'm like, well that's the stuff that you have to get rid of. So how do you get rid of the noise? I mean, what's the effective way of getting rid of that? Gillian: Well, there's two ways to get rid of noise. There's before, you know, fixing the problems before you hit record, which is the best way to do it. And then there's post-production stuff that you can do later. And I've had people come to me with audio issues, and sometimes they are unfixable. We are not magicians. There are some things that are just, if you record so quiet and your noise floor is so loud, there's no way to take that off and have your voice not sound distorted or wrong. So the best way is isolate yourself, make sure you're in a good environment, make sure you sound okay in your booth, your DIY booth, and make sure that your gain is set properly so you're not set up for failure later. And then in post-production, there are plug-ins that you can use to kind of remove those frequencies. So if you're getting rid of room tone, something that I use is Spectral DeNoise by Izotope RX. I think I have 8 or 9, I'm not sure what number they're up to, but really the one that I have is great. And that just you take a little, it takes like a little audio picture of the room tone and then goes throughout the audio file and just removes that frequency and tone, which is great. That's incredible. The only thing you need to have with that is a little bit of room tone noise with no speaking before or after the clips so that you know, the generator can grab it. But that's my favorite thing to use. And it works really well for slight room tone or little wind in the background if you're outside, whatever it might be. But that's like the pro plugin. Anne: So then there's the DAW, right? And that is really based on what you're comfortable with. And depending on your platform, you can have various DAWs. We've already established that we like Twisted Wave. You use Pro Tools because of course you're an audio engineer and, and then that makes sense. You need to have that functionality. Now we've added into the mix something called Izotope to help remove certain noises. And so is that typically what most voice actors will have to buy, Izotope? Will it work within their DAW or is that when it becomes complicated? Gillian: It's a whole thing. We could do a whole episode about plug-ins and all of that. But for the simple answer is that Izotope, they have a bunch of plug-ins, all voice related. The two that I use the most -- I have the whole suite because, you know, I work with voices all the time, and realistically you can meet with an audio engineer like me and I would say, hey, you probably need this and you need this. You don't need to buy all of them. But I use spectral de-noise the most that gets rid of the noise. And then there's also mouth de-click, which gets rid of all the little clicky -- those noises. I use that often, but I use that for music, for everything for my singing voice. I hate hearing those, um, myself. So those are the two that I use. But you can get any variation. I haven't used them within Twisted Wave just because I haven't, but I think that you can, because -- Anne: I have. Gillian: Oh. Yes, you can integrate them into DAWs. I've used them in Pro Tools, I've used them in Logic, I've used them in Audition, and Izotope as well has its own little audio editor. So you can import a file, render it with the effect, and then import it into your DAW if you like to work that way. Anne: So then let's talk about, okay, if you're new to the industry and you're kind of overwhelmed with all of this, you are available. Like an audio engineer can be available to help you with all of those choices. Right? You can help in terms of, let's say, somebody doesn't know what to do to make their sound better in their booth. So they can consult with you, maybe send you a sound file, and you can evaluate and then offer suggestions on how they might be able to improve their sound, right, and get rid of some of the noise. And so that also includes, right, what microphone should I get? I mean that's the other thing, right? So we've talked about how important the environment is. We've talked about DAWs and how we can do things after, you know, we record to get rid of noise. Now, how important is a microphone in terms of the quality of your sound? Gillian: I think having a good quality microphone is very important. I personally don't think that there is a, a voiceover microphone. I think that, I know a lot of people use 416s. Those are tricky in a lot of ways. I think any large diaphragm condenser mic works really well because it's very sensitive and it picks up your voice. I have on my website a list of gear recommendations at three different price points, low to high that I recommend. But really more important than having the most expensive mic is knowing how to use that mic. And so that has to do with placement, understanding -- Anne: What do you mean by placement? Gillian: So for mic placement, it's really about where you're positioning yourself with the mic, and knowing a mic is circular, you gotta make sure that you're singing or talking into the right part of it. Anne: That's what I was just gonna say. Yeah. I remember once I had purchased my TLM 103 and I had it installed backwards, and so I was not speaking into the right part of the mic and I couldn't figure out why it didn't sound awesome like everybody else. And literally I had just put it upside down in my mount and then didn't realize that I was speaking into the back of it. And so that is a very important thing. Again, that's something that you can help as well with talent. So I don't want, BOSSes, if you're just new to this, I don't want you to feel overwhelmed because an audio engineer can do amazing things from remote. They don't have to be in your studio. They can really help you to set up a great environment. They can help you with selection or I guess I would say recommendations on a mic that might be good for your voice, right? Also placement, right? And where you should be speaking into that mic. And also maybe with your editing or creating what I like to call -- I have a stack that is basically something that I apply to all of my audio after I record. And that takes out the highs, the lows, does a little bit of compression. Let's talk a little bit about stacks and how they can help in the editing process. Gillian: Can we go back to microphones for one second? Anne: Oh yes, I'm sorry. Yeah. Gillian: No, it's okay. Just, it's so hysterical that you say that about the microphone because -- Anne: Being backwards? Gillian: I mean it's hard to know. It's hard to know. And something when I was in school that I was taught very early on and I never forget, and it -- I was in school, you know, for music recording, but they're all the same. So my professor would always say sing to the bling. And that means basically when you have a microphone, wherever the logo is, that's where you should be facing. A lot of people, you know, make the mistake of going, oh, I want my Telefunken logo facing out. You would think maybe that's the way it goes. And that's how it ends up backwards. But really, and it doesn't work a 100% of the time 'cause there are a few mics that the capsule doesn't work that way. But most of the time if you see a logo, talk towards that logo. And another thing for just very simple, little explanation for voice actors, if you have an option to pick a polar pattern on your mic, which will come in the instructions, it'll be on the front. You wanna do cardioid, 'cause kind of what you were talking about. Your TLM 103 was set in cardioid and you were facing the back. So all the sound was being rejected, but I know some mics come set in omni, which will increase your room noise because that means that everything around the mic is getting picked up instead of sense, just your voice. So if there's an option for cardioid, just pick cardioid. We can talk about it later, but just pick it. Anne: Fantastic. So then let's talk again about how we can make our editing a little bit easier on us by using what -- I call them stacks. I don't know if you call them something different, but these are processes that can be applied to your audio to help take out noises. And I would say when I first got my stack, it saved me like 50% of my editing time. Otherwise I kept going in and out of my waves and removing noise, and it just was so tedious. Gillian: Yeah. So stacks, whatever you wanna call them, it's really just a plug-in sequence, and it's stuff that every time you open it up, you have these settings, and they will save you time. And I think that everyone should have a light one that's just, you know, fixing up a few things, and then obviously the audition one because you send an audition, you wanna sound like the final job that should be a bit more processed. But that usually comes with EQ, compression, and all of those things. You know, if, if your mouth clicks are very present with your mic or with your voice, that would be on there, which would help with removing all those noises, and yeah, those things, having them set ahead of time, those can be issues that people have with audio that are just taken care of right away. But I do think that if you feel comfortable doing them yourself and you think that you can EQ yourself, then good luck, go at it . But I do think that maybe, you know, working with someone who can help you would be helpful. Anne: I agree. I agree. And, and I will say that just because again, I did not go to school for audio engineering, so I always highly recommend working with a professional. What is it like to work with you in terms of -- let's say, a student wanted to hire you to help them with their sound. What do you do? How do you assess that? Gillian: So my current offering that I have, which is kind of just starting point and sort of a pipeline into us working together further is I offer an audio assessment. Because there are a lot of people that are selling and selling and selling, and sometimes they sell things that people don't really need. So the audio assessment is sort of a checkpoint. We meet, it's not together, but this is, you know, our interaction. I have some pre-written copy that you'll get. You send me an audio sample, I listen, and I either say, hey, you know, you're really set, you're great, you actually don't need anything. You sound like a pro. Or hey, here are a few things that I would fix, and I address all the things that we talked about today. You know, I think that maybe your mic placement is a little bit off. I think that maybe your gain, you know , all the things I'm hearing. I would EQ it this way. I think maybe a little compression would help your voice. Just the things that I'm hearing to kind of get an engineer's ear on what you're sending to clients and how you sound. And from there we can go on and potentially, you know, build a stack together, and I'm working on building out some courses for people to learn a bit more. But that's what I have kind of right now going. Anne: Fantastic. So now did you say is there a cost associated with the audio assessment or? Gillian: Yes. Anne: Okay. Yes. Okay. So BOSSes, I do believe that we have a special offering from Gillian. Gillian: We do, we do. Anne: Yeah. For her to assess your audio. Tell us about that. Gillian: So for BOSSes and everyone getting involved for the next month or so, I'm gonna be running, you know, $20 off my audio assessments. For the early bird BOSSes, we are going to, for the first five people to get on my site and purchase an audio assessment using the promo code BOSSTOP5, you'll get a free audio assessment. I will kind of go over it, and Anne and I will actually be going over them on our next episode together. So you know, proceed with caution. If you don't wanna be on the show, don't do it. But the first five people will get a free audio assessment and anonymous we will go through and just kind of talk about the issues so that you can hear what I would do, what I'm hearing, just to have it as a further explanation for educational purposes, and for anyone who's not in the first five $20 off for that. Anne: Well fantastic. I love, love, love that because first of all, as you know, I am all about education, and so I love that we're gonna actually do this stuff in our next episodes. So yeah, bosses, the first five to purchase an audio assessment using the word BOSS Top 5, BOSSTOP5 are going to get a free audio assessment, and we're gonna be on the show. So you're gonna hear Gillian live, assessing your audio, making the suggestions, and we're gonna just be learning as we go. And I love that. So Gillian, thank you so much for that. I think that's a wonderful offer, and thanks so much for being on the show. I feel like we just -- Gillian: Just scratched surface, I know. Anne: Yes. We have so much more to come, and so BOSSes, I'm proud to announce that Gillian and I are gonna be getting together for more episodes so that we can have an entire audio themed series. And so I'm really excited. Gillian, thank you so much for today's episode and for the BOSS top five, guys, we're gonna be sending out an email. It's also gonna be on our show notes page, so make sure that you check out our VO BOSS show notes page for that offer. And wow, Gillian, thanks so much. Gillian: Thank you so much for having me, and everybody who's listening, if you have audio questions, get in contact, reach out via Instagram, whatever you do to get a hold of BOSS Queen, Ms. Anne, and let her know 'cause we will cover everything that you wanna know. And I'm just really excited to also, you know, educate people and teach them what they need to know, what they should be hiring people for, and just get everybody sounding their best. Anne: Okay. And that website is? Gillian: For me, it's gillwitheg.com. Gill with the G.com. It'll, I'll be linked in the show notes. And same with social media, that's, that's where I am everywhere. Anne: Fantastic. All right, guys, I'd like to give a great big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can network and connect like BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye. Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

The voice over industry is always changing. Pivoting for success is about preparing for that change and learning how to adapt. Anne & Lau are very experienced with pivoting professionally. How else could they keep their businesses thriving for 15 years? Pivoting is not just about immediately making changes to your process, but exploring your options. It's about taking a step back, looking at what you are doing and asking yourself "Is this working? Is this the right thing?" There's an incredible amount of pressure to stay ahead of the curve and keep up with the latest trends & tech. If you're not learning new things, you're falling behind. Don't sweat it, Bosses. Anne & Lau are here to help you embrace these shifts + take advantage of bigger & better opportunities... Transcript It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS Podcast and the BOSS Superpower series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, along here with my very special guest co-host, Lau Lapides. Hey Lau, how are you today? Lau: I'm, I'm doing great. Anne: Awesome. So Lau, last night -- (laughs) -- Late at night, I had the television on, and there was an episode of Friends that came on. It's one of my favorite episodes because I don't know if you watch Friends. Oh, okay. Lau: Back in the day, are you kidding me? We were all Friends. Anne: So, do you remember the episode where they're trying to get the mattress up the staircase, and they're having a hard time making the turn? And Ross, Ross kept saying, pivot (laughs). Pivot. Pivot. And it totally made me think of my business, and I thought we could talk about pivoting. So question BOSSes, how good are you at pivoting and making quick changes, doing things in the moment, evolving along and changing direction? Good question. And I think we are at a point in our industry where things are changing, Lau, more than ever before. I mean, I think things are always changing. We always have to be on the lookout for trends. But I do feel as though we are at a pivotal point, (laughs), no pun intended, a critical point too in the industry where things just may change. And if we wanna survive, Lau, as a business — and I sat back and really thought about this the other day, we have to be able to evolve and change along with that if we want to survive. And I thought, alright, let's ask myself the toughest question. What would happen? ''Cause this has been on the forums for good long time now — the threat of synthetic voices, right? Well, what would happen to your business? Right? Ask yourself the question, BOSSes, what would happen if you did not have voiceover anymore? How would you be able to maintain a business or stay in business? How would you pivot? Lau: That's an excellent question. It's sort of a human question too. We never wanna think about this, but what happens if our career goes down? What happens if our house is gone? What happens if we can't walk anymore? I mean, these are things we don't wanna think about but that do happen in life to people every moment of the day. And it's not unrealistic to say, let me think of three possible scenarios that I could do if my business starts to crash and burn. Or if the pipeline for my business that I so rely upon, those 2, 3, 4 clients are gone? I actually saw one business, Anne, where there was four biggies in the pipeline for a talent, and they all went down. This was at the beginning of a earlier recession, and he had to close his business. He had to close, not because he didn't have the business, because he didn't know how to pivot. Anne: Well, you bring up such a good point. And you know, the pandemic was a big jolt to everyone's minds in saying, oh gosh, all of a sudden things have changed. Right? And this became like, well, we better make sure our studios are up to snuff and because we're gonna now be working from our home studios. And it became a thing that if you were a talent and you didn't have the proper requirements for your studio, if it didn't sound good, if you didn't have Source Connect or ipDTL or another way to connect to your client, your business might be suffering. And so those that were able to pivot and quickly recognize this and implement that, if they didn't have it implemented already, we're able to pivot. That was, I think, one of the first jolts to, I think a lot of us in the industry, that, oops, something changed and we need to be able to pivot with it in order to be successful or remain successful. Lau: Now, did you have one, at least one big pivot and during covid that you can recall and say, wow, that was a big shift? I changed, whatever that was? Do you have one in mind that you did during that Covid period right at the beginning? Anne: That's a good question. Well, first of all, I know that right before lockdown, I was super excited because I was able to complete this studio before that happened. And so when that happened, the great thing was, is that I was prepared. And I know that I already had been active with my ipDTL, so I was thankful for that, right, and Source Connect. And so I technically knew how to use them, I had used them. I was able to then make sure that I had those advertised on my page to make sure I could handle new work coming in, or if people had questions, because it was becoming a requirement now in casting specs. And so for me, it was literally making a pivot. I also had a lot of people reaching out for coaching, right? So I needed to make sure that I was able to handle the influx, which to me was a wonderful thing, right? I didn't have to necessarily worry so much about not working or losing business because more and more was coming in. So for me, it was an adjustment in terms of my scheduling and how I could fit everything in and do that. But what about you, Lau? Because you had a physical studio. Talk about that. Lau: Yeah, I did. And I did what every other voiceover talent. I was building my own voiceover studio from home. But the big pivot for me that I didn't even recognize I was doing, besides going online with the business, which was huge — that to me was huge, like, being able to go into the global zone and reach clients that way was terrifying, but incredibly exciting. The other big pivot for me was becoming an agent. So I never, ever dreamed or thought of that or envisioned that as part of my business at all. And then all of a sudden, I was on lockdown with everyone else, and I said, I, I -- Anne: Yeah, maybe we'll do that. Lau: And yeah. And my husband said, do you know anything about that? Do you know how to do that? I said, uh, no. I've had agents as a talent, but I've, I've never worked in an agency. I've never worked in an office. I'll figure it out.(laughs) Anne: I love that. I'll figure it out. Lau: So it's that sense of — the way I was trained. Yeah. The way I was trained, my mentors were like, listen, in business, Lau, in business, you have to set up your service. And then you have to figure out how to do it. Because believe it or not, (laughs), right? Miss control factor here, you are not gonna know how to do most things before you sell it. And that to me was outta my mind with that. Like, I had to know exactly how to do everything before I could put it on the market. And I learned that's actually not the way business really runs. Like you're upgrading your product, you're offering new services, and you're kind of piloting it and pulling it to figure out what it is through your client base. And I figured out how to do that. But the big pivot for me was going online. Anne: That's amazing. So you created another segment of your business, or you grew another segment of your business. And I'm gonna say for me, during the pandemic, it was growing my business for coaching and demo production and producing demos online. Now, I am gonna say, for me, I am so grateful that I came from a background of technology because I was very used to having new things thrown at me and then being able to learn them and adjust and pivot. And I cannot tell you how much that experience helped me through the pandemic and pretty much anything else that as the industry grows here, being able to adjust it. You know, in the beginning, the fact that I understood technology or I could work with technology helped me when home studios weren't a thing, and then they were a thing. So I understood that it was something I needed to do. Being online, that has always been an inherent part of my experience, and I'm very grateful for that. It's how I brought VO Peeps into light. When I decided to quit my job and then just do full-time VO, I had to really start implementing things quickly so that I could bring in some revenue. And because I had experience in technology, I thought I would say, well, I thought, well, I can create a networking group that's global and that's online. And thus began VO Peeps. As, you know, things started to evolve. I started to offer classes using streaming technologies and then hybrid classes so that people didn't have to be physically near me to take a class or in person. They could do it online, in Zoom. And so I was able to evolve with that. And so I'm very, very fortunate and I cannot stress enough for those of you out there that maybe are afraid of technology or afraid of your computer or learning new things, I think it's fundamental, number one, to be able to take advantage of the technologies, to help you pivot (laughs) and help you grow. And I think that that's number one, that I feel so lucky that I'm — was able to pivot with the help of technology, and the fact that I knew it — and if I didn't know it, I would learn it. Right Lau, just like you, if you don't know, you're going to have to learn in order to kind of stay afloat and survive. Lau: I think also along with that, there's this sense of who I thought I'd be or where I thought I'd be by a certain age or a stage of life. And I know a lot of people go through this like, oh, I think I'd be this, or I'd be married by this day, whatever. Believe it or not, I always thought from a young age, I would be like, a talent, full-time, professional talent, because that's what I was trained to do for the first half of my life. And then that was a massive pivot. And very difficult too, because anyone who's a talent who pivots in another direction, whether they become a producer or a director or they own an agency or whatever, there's that loss. There's a little bit of mourning in that. There's that loss of understanding that, sure, I can do a gig or whatever, but my real focus for my business is in this direction. So that was a massive pivot for me when I opened my studio to really say, I can still do a gig if I wanna do a gig, but it's no longer my focus, it's not my focus point. My focus point is this. And to be able to concentrate and discipline myself to, to pivot in that direction is tough. It's wonderful that we're capable of doing that. But every, like, I'd say, every year, maybe once a year or so, like I just wanna cry my eyes out because I think, oh, what could have happened if I used this in my performance track? You know what I mean? Anne: First of all, I love that you mentioned that. I wanna say that I've always been of the philosophy that I love performing, right? I love being a voice actor, and nothing beats it. Right? But I give so much credit to my ability and what I've learned over the years to build a business in regard to keeping me safe and able to pivot, right? So again, if I ask the really hard question, okay, synthetic voices are getting good, right? There will be a market for them. There will be people who will pay for them. It will be okay at some point it'll probably evolve because I've gotten used to talking to Alexa. I always use Alexa as my example, but what am I going to do when parts of my business are taken away, right, by the technology? What can I do? And so asking the really tough question, if there was no voiceover, if the synthetic voice got so good that maybe the market just collapsed, and that could happen, what would I do? And I am thankful, so very thankful that I have the business skills, right? I've built a business and I've maintained that business for 15, longer than 15 years. And so what can I bring with those skills, right, to maybe not perform and do voiceover? What else could I do? And so I really started to think about, okay, there's lots of kind of things on the side. I have the VO Peeps group. I call it the tendrils of my business, like it's got arms. But really I could do something more with that. Or with the podcast, maybe I could be a podcast host or I could help other people develop their podcast. There's so many things that I am grateful for, again, because I have built my business up. But I think, BOSSes out there, you've got to really, really sit down and think, what will happen if this industry changes in a way that it's not what I intended right now? And am I preparing myself? Am I training myself to be able to evolve and pivot with it? But I think the whole business skills thing, if you guys are bored, (laughs) BOSSes out there, if you're bored, like, what should I train on next? Right? What should I do? Yes, of course, performance. But don't forget, gosh, about business, marketing -- those things, those skills will be invaluable for you as a business in order to survive whatever pivot you decide or whatever pivot you do. Lau: Yeah. I couldn't agree more with that. I think you gotta be in the business of being in business. My dad always said, I'm in the business of staying in business, right? So I'm not gonna do something completely unrelated, because it's not within my skillset. Like I'm not gonna go all of a sudden be a nurse. I'm probably not gonna be a firefighter. Could I actually have the skills to apply? Yeah. I really could, 'cause I feel like I've been taking care of people for a lot of years, but I'm not gonna do that. That's out of my realm, but within my realm — you're building hardcore skills, these BOSSes that are listening now. You're really, you may not know it, but you're building skills so that if one area of your business goes down, you don't wanna become obsolete. It reminds me of the services that were doing, you know, VHS movies, you know what I mean? And you'd go in and you'd rent a movie and take — you and I remember those days, you'd take that movie, you'd rewind it and bring it back. Well, they went out of business, they became obsolete and went out of business when then we went to DVDs, and now we're streaming, and now we're this. So I always wondered, why didn't they go into that area of innovation? Why did they just close down? Why didn't they pivot and shift? Why didn't they go into DVDs? Why didn't they -- Anne: Great example, Netflix. Lau: I don't know why. Anne: Right? Netflix, it was videos, right? It was videos that you rented and they mailed them to you. Right? Do you remember that? I feel old now. They mailed them to you for $.99 when you joined, right? And you could just keep getting videos and look at their pivot. Wow. I mean, that's an amazing pivot. Now they're one of the largest online streaming services, and I'm gonna say Microsoft, IBM. Look at these big companies that have been around for a very long time, right, and how they have pivoted and evolved. Look at, I think I was mentioning this to you before, but I had just seen something with Gary Vaynerchuk, who I absolutely love. He just was talking about the tractor. So farmers, when the tractor was invented, they were like, oh, it's gonna take away my job, it's gonna take away my job. And they would scream, and guess what? We evolved, right? So now tractors are being used to help farmers do their job. And so then we can, as humans, do more wonderful things. So I always think — when people have a thought that, oh my God, this is gonna take my job away. My business is gonna fall out from under me -- I think we need to really think about tractors or that concept that like, okay, how can we use whatever it is that's disrupting our business? And I'm gonna use technology as an example, right, synthetic voices. How can we use that to enhance our business or expand our business? How can we use it to help us do our jobs better? And I'm telling you, BOSSes out there, if you use Positron mm, okay, you cannot be hypocritical, right? Positron uses AI to help you do your job better, right? And yes, there's a lot of discussion about rights and and licensing and yes, that needs to be addressed. Right? Which is what I've always been talking about. If you're on the ground floor with this stuff, you have a voice to be able to make sure that that will happen. Okay? So I think really, it's going to expand us as human beings. Right? And it's not gonna take over ,because human beings invented it. Right? And I like to believe that not everybody in the world is evil, and that we will ultimately use the technology to help us to build better things and to be greater human beings. Because nothing will take away the fact that we are humans, and we humans like to engage with each other. Yeah, yeah. Lau: And we also like to innovate. And I think once you sit back and you stop innovating, then you're stopping the whole nature of what business is. I mean, building a business needs to be built from the ground up. Even if someone is handing you a business or selling you a business, you still have to put your stamp on that. And you have to figure out from an integral source about like, how do we do things? Like the best people who run businesses know how to do a lot of the jobs. It doesn't mean they're going to, but they're gonna delegate them. But it, they know how to do a lot of what their business runs on. Anne: They're educated. Right? Educate yourself. Lau: They're educated. So yeah, so the peeps listening now have to think, okay, what are three things right now that are related, directly related to my business that are my skillset that I'm learning and I'm doing that I could literally offer -- I could extend my business if this area goes down, if this area? Like I'm a really great writer. Okay. If you're a great writer, you should be able to write copy, you should be able to write particular scripts in certain genres that you love or that you're really good at. You should be able to sell those potentially. Anne: But what if AI takes that away from you, Lau, then what? Then where's your pivot? There you go. Mm. Lau: Well, there it is. You have to continue to -- it's like a tree. I always feel like, I know you feel this way too, Anne, in my business, my life isn't long enough to do everything I wanna do. Like I'm an idea a minute. I, I'm like an advertising agency idea minute kind of person. I'm like, oh my God, yes, I could create a library of this, and then I could do this and then I could offer this. Do I do it all? No, because you can't do it all. You have to make selections and prioritize along the way. But if three things went down, I'd take three other things and build them up. Because I feel like we are expansive. We're expansive of possibilities. There's so much realm we can do. Anne: Yes, always think of the abundance, right, rather than what's being taken away. People who are stomping their foot and saying no, no to this technology, no to this evolution of what's happening in the industry. I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna stop AI. I'm just not as a single human being. I can have a voice and determine how I use it. Right? And how it will affect me and how it will affect my business. And for me, I am steadfastly committed to not having my business be in any sort of detriment because of it. I will use what I use to enhance my business, and that's it. But I think we have to always be of the mindset that we need to educate ourselves in order to really think about how are we going to pivot and educate yourself continually think about what it is that you bring to the table that can be another avenue for you or another tendril of your business to start developing now. And it doesn't have to be all voiceover related, although I like to be in parallel. I mean, like you said, you're a good writer. You could write. I mean I organized events. I can organize events. We do a podcast together. How much fun to help other people do podcasts together? There's just a lot of things that I think that can happen if you really just put your mind to it. Lau: I would love to see people really challenge themselves to take the time — if they're taking a lot of time -- they're fighting the good fight, they're fighting the battles, or they're upset or they're engaging in conversation, they're trying to work out the problems of having these innovations taking over their work, I get that. And to some degree it's necessary to do that, to process through what you're going through. But I'd also like to see people take the time that they're taking to do that to also innovate new ideas and really start to execute and implement those new ideas to see if they can be a viable source of joy and income for them. Because I guarantee you so many people are taking so much time to get angry or gossip or downtalk this or that. Number one, as you said, it's inevitable. We're not gonna stop it. Nor would we wanna stop it -- Anne: So much energy. Lau: — necessarily, but the — yes. So much energy is going in the wrong direction. Anne: Fighting (laughs) and trying to stop. And I think honestly -- like, I love that you said the word innovate. And I think that there are too few people that think about themselves as being innovative. Right? And we are, I mean, gosh, we are probably some of the most innovative, creative -- if you're a creative, you're innovative. That's the way I feel. Or you can be innovative if you're creative. Right? And that's where I think we need to stretch ourselves to grow ourselves as BOSSes. Think beyond the booth, think beyond the booth. How can you build your business? How can you grow your business? Doesn't necessarily have to always be within the confines of the booth. And innovate, I love that word. I think that should be like your challenge word for the rest of the year. Innovate. How can I innovate? Yeah. Lau: How can I innovate? And there's a beautiful little piece of artwork that's in my office that I bought in my travels, and it says create the things you wish existed. And I love that. That's like one of the mottos or affirmations that I have found in my travels that really, every time I look at it, it inspires me to say, okay, I'm not gonna sit and dish(?) day and night about what I don't like and what's going wrong and why did I lose this, and how come I'm not making money at that? I'm gonna say, woo, hold on. Whoa Nellie, let's go to here and say I'm gonna do this. How can I make this work? How can I make this happen? And that opens up the portal to a whole world inevitably that that door closes, that door opens, it opens up that whole world that if I didn't ask that question, if I didn't go down that path, none of that would've happened. If I stayed in this sort of negative vibe zone of just being really irritated that it didn't go the way I wanted it to go or I feel like something's been taken from me, or I've been violated in some way — I'm gonna empower myself to say, but wait a second, I've got all of these powerhouse sources within me that I can now grow that can take the place of that. That's how entrepreneurs really think in order to survive. Because not everything thrives and not everything lasts forever. And how they do the comeback. People like Cher and Madonna, how do they do the comeback every time? Anne: Can I just say this? I know Madonna gets a lot of criticism. But look at a woman who knows how to pivot(laughs). She has lasted in the industry, right, for, 40 years. Right? Lau: Right. And then great actors like Tom Hanks or whatever, how did they, how did they pivot when they physically change? They emotionally changed. How did they shift? Anne: Meryl Streep, I'm just saying. Lau: They're not gonna get the same roles. Anne: Every new role, pivoting, evolving, still remaining relevant. I mean it's inspirational really. Lau: Yeah. Anne: So, yeah. Yeah. Lau: It's totally inspirational because I could sit there and I could say, I'm really upset though, Anne. I'm very sad and angry that I don't look 25 anymore. I'm gonna try like heck to look 25, and I can do that. But wouldn't it be better to say, but wait a second, I'm 40 or I'm 60, and I'm gonna bring out the intense beauty and wisdom I have now that I didn't absolutely have when I was 25. Anne: Sarah Jessica Parker. Right? I'm going gray. I'm just -- Lau: That's what it is. Anne: Right. Like just to continue to evolve and continue to innovate, be relevant. And really, I think BOSSes, it's something to just sit back and think when you're on vacation next time maybe, and you've got some downtime, and really think about how you may pivot as times change. And sometimes you just don't know what's gonna happen. But I like to present myself, well, if this happens, I will do this. Or maybe I'll start pursuing educating myself here, because I see things happening this way. And I think it's hard to be a visionary, but I always try to be. I do know that after working 20 some odd years in technologies, that I cannot stop it. And I say it's over and over again. You might think I'm a broken record, but I cannot alone stop technology from happening ever. And it just became a thing. And I think once you realize and you kind of accept that, it helps you to pivot, it helps you to to be innovative. It helps you to think about how can I utilize what I've got in front of me, not just technology, but utilize what I have, who I am and what I have in front of me to grow and to become better and to maintain a successful business. Lau: And be okay with change. Be okay with things not being the way you know them to be. That's tough. I always found that difficult 'cause I loved things that were familiar to me and things I knew. Just be okay with the shift and change of the pivot. It's like you're going to something new. It's not going to be replicating what you did before. And if you're okay with that -- Anne: Roll with the bumps. Lau: — you're a little bit bravery, you're more courageous. Roll with the bumps, 'cause innovation is not always success. Innovation is trying, you know what I mean? It's taking chances. It's taking calculated risks. It does not say that you're going to be successful because you're pivoting. It means you have the opportunity to be successful. Anne: If you are riding bucking bronco -- I always say this 'cause I rode horses as a young girl, right? And as a young girl, this was the sitting trot. Okay? And any of you horse lovers out there that rode, being able to sit a trot and be able to let go of your hips and roll — because a horse's movements are not always perfectly smooth. It's hard to anticipate sometimes. Or if a horse spooks, you have to literally be able to roll, roll with the changes so that you don't get thrown off that horse. Right? So, I don't know, maybe -- Lau: Is that where we get roll with the punches? Anne: — the punches aren't as hard. Right? Is if you resist against those punches, right, it's gonna hurt a whole lot more. Wow. Good stuff. Lau: Right. Anne: Oh my God. Lau: Right, right. I love it. It's so true. Anne: Now we know you can do it. So I'm going to give a great big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can network and connect like BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. And also, I want you to imagine the world full of passionate, empowered, diverse individuals like we all are. As BOSSes giving collectively and intentionally to create the world that you want to see, a lot of what we just discussed today. You can make a difference. Visit 100voiceswhocare.org to find out more. You guys, have an amazing week. We love you. We'll see you next week. Bye. Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

When you're an voice actor, growing your business is not just about booking another job. It's a whole process of making your business work. That process is full of potential risks, big investments...and even bigger successes. In this episode, Anne & Lau discuss making money, investing money back in your business, and fears surrounding money. In today's world, it's not enough to just be a great voice over talent. You also need to be a savvy businessperson. And that means understanding the basics of finance, including how to invest in your own business & make sure you're doing it intelligently. Money can be a scary topic to think about, and even scarier to talk about. You're not alone if you feel scared. It means that you care! Transcript It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza, and I am here with the lovely and most wonderful VO BOSS co-host (laugh) Lau Lapides. Hey Lau. Lau: Hey everyone. Hey Anne. Anne: How are you this week? Lau: Oh, fabulous. Anne: Awesome. Lau: As always. How are you? How are you? Anne: I'm good, but you know what? I think it's time that we had a talk about money, and I know we spoke about raising rates before, but I think maybe it's because -- okay, so I admission, I downloaded Rocket Money for my iPhone, and I started to see like, where are my expenses going? What income's coming in? What am I paying on a monthly basis? And I'm just gonna start by saying that when you're trying to either cut your expenses -- and I wanted to start at least on that, if you find that you need to cut your expenses so that you can make a profit, right? Because, I mean, this is why we do VO, right? We are a business, we'd like to make a profit. It's good to find out the areas in which you're spending money. And it surprised me -- it, well, it didn't surprise me a whole lot because I've always said that a podcast is a labor of love. But I'm going to tell you that my discovery was that this podcast, with all the different things that I have going on and paying people to help me transcribe, edit, put out videos, do some social media stuff, cost me on average per year, just about $15,000 and that is not a small amount of money. (laugh) It's something, when you have a business, that's something you've gotta keep your eyes open and really look at and decide, is this worth my investment? Lau: Yes. Absolutely. And that's, look, is that true of any business, not just our business? You really should be having some sort of a business model at the start, even if it's a skeletal one, having an idea of what's my growth? Where is my growth in the first three years, three to five years of my business? That's really the time, I mean, according to statistics, that most businesses do fail is within the first five years. So it is really important to say, okay, here's my basic model and here are the first year projects. Here are my second year projects. What do I think I'm going to gross? Like, where is my gross coming from? Where is my net? And just like basic financial language so that when you get to that powerhouse podcast, like what you have, you're not outta your mind going, what? How is that possible to invest that kind of money? Right? Anne: Well, and I think it's something too though, and I spoke about this earlier this week on another webinar, how being an entrepreneur and having a, a voiceover business, it takes courage. It really does. It takes courage to get out there. And I know there's so many people that tend to get into this industry thinking, oh, I can work from home. All I have to do is go in my studio and record and I'll make my money. But nobody really thinks about the cycle of money. Right? Because there's an investment that has to happen. And I think our brains kind of shut that off when we first get started, because all we're thinking about is, oh, I just have to go in my studio and record, and I'll just make that money. But for every business to, I think, function successfully, there is money that you need to invest. And it takes courage to invest money really takes courage to, especially if, let's say you're doing this full-time and you're just starting, and we're in that time period where maybe you're not comfortable yet or feel like you're making any kind of headway or profits (laugh) in the first few years. So Lau, I mean, you went even further than just a voice talent. I mean, you have a studio (laugh) like... and that is a considerable investment. And so what was it like when you were first investing in this like a physical studio, right? I mean, there's rent, there's (laugh), you know, there's equipment. What was it like for you when you first got involved in that in terms of was it scary? Lau: Well, I'll be honest, as I try to be all the time, I was shitting bricks. I mean, it was terrifying. (laugh) I'm sorry, your engineer might have to take that one out, but listen, I think our audience can deal with that. Anne: I think so too. Lau: Yeah. I'll be honest with you, I was 40, I was not a young kid. I was already, you know, getting to middle-age, and I was offered a space -- this is how it happened for me. I was offered a space through my dad who was a big real estate owner, and he was an amazing entrepreneur unto himself in his own right. And he looked at me one day and he said, I have a space that's opening up, Lau. It's in a prime location. Location is everything, when you're looking at space, whether you're looking to live or own a business, I wanna give it to you, not give it to you, but I wanna offer it to you. And how do you feel about that? And I remember exactly where I was. I was in a Dunkin Donuts, I know the exactly where it was, how I felt, and I could feel my heart, Anne, drop into my stomach as if you're on the edge of a cliff, like I could feel it like you're gonna jump out of a plane. And all I could say is in the most important times of my life with the biggest decisions, all I could say was yes. That doesn't mean I was like, knew what the hell I was doing. It just meant more of me wanted to do it than not wanna do it. And I knew, I knew in my heart it was now or never, that that was the window of time to do it. So taking on that level of financial investment, taking on prime territory space, all these things that we do need to think about is a leap of faith. A tremendous leap of faith. Anne: Yes. I was just gonna say that, it's a tremendous leap of faith, and something that I think that -- you know, it's great to have a leap of faith and belief and a passion and a dream to follow it. But I think you also have to have the street smarts to do that in an intelligent way. Right? Because we're not gonna make investments if we don't have some money to back that up, of course. And before we can get to that place to where we might have money to invest, right, there might be places in our career where we can start to save a little money and put that away. And I've said this multiple times, that the most confident I was ever in my business was when I had a savings account, that I had enough money in there that I could make sure that I could pay the mortgage for the next three months, six months -- actually it was six months -- and I would feel okay if the work didn't come in, or if I needed to make an investment. That confidence led me to take the leap of faith and take the risks that was required for me to actually grow beyond where I was. Because otherwise, I think we just sit here in our studio, and we sit there, and we try to get job after job and we audition, we audition, we audition. But where is the growth? I mean, you could audition your life away, right? But if you're not taking a leap of faith or a risk somewhere and making an investment -- and investment doesn't always have to be money. But I'm gonna say that for most of us, right, the money is like in your face, (laugh), you know what I mean? It's like, that's the kind of risky, scary stuff that it's like, oh no, I've gotta pay what? (laugh) And even if you're talking about a demo, right, or something, you're just getting started or a new microphone, it can be overwhelming, the investment, the money. And I think we're both here to say that, look, you're not alone if you're scared. Right? You're not-- or if you're nervous about that. Lau: No, no. And you have to be, it's important to me because that level of fear, apprehension, that level of anxiety is also telling yourself that you care. You really care about what happens to you, what happens to the business, what happens to your money, what happens with safety and security. Like you're connected to that ,you care. You're not just saying, oh yeah, it'll be easy and fun. Let me just throw a hundred grand at it and let's see what happens. You're really connected to the outcomes in understanding that sacrifice is happening. You have to be ready to sacrifice to have a business, especially a brick and mortar business. Anne: Oh gosh, yes. Lau: Yeah. Like all of our wonderful restaurant friends during Covid really sacrificed and suffered. Well, so did we to some degree. Like we can have a home studio, which is amazing. But if you have any kind of brick and mortar, you have to be ready to sacrifice to keep that shingle up every single month. Every every month it has to be up. You can't just take six months off from it or a year off from paying your rent or your mortgage, or the heat, or I always say, you know, there's toilet paper, there's all sorts of ancillary services that you are providing if you have any kind of a brick and mortar that the public comes into. You have to have insurance. You have to make sure if God forbid, someone gets hurt, you're covered. You have to make sure that, you know, on and on it goes. Taxes are paid, property taxes, on and on it goes. So not to scare anyone, but to sort of keep it real, that even if you're in a home studio, someone is taking care of that home. Someone is paying that rental on that apartment. Someone is, and it's probably you. Right? So it is a level of sacrifice and understanding that I need to continue doing this in order to build this into a viable business, a real business that makes profit. Anne: Yeah. And I think too, something that's very key is in terms of having the courage, right, to make investments, we're investing in a business that is very much a business about us. Right? It's very much a personal brand. This is about our voice. This is about us being able to perform a service with our voice, which is such a personal part of us. And if we see failure, I think it compounds it. It's not like, oh, I have a product here, a new formula. Right? But when it's our voice, and it's when it's all about us, and we're talking about making an investment in us and giving that money up to invest in us -- if it does not work, right, it affects us personally. And I think that is where a lot of the fear comes in for people coming into this industry. And I'll tell you what, it doesn't go away. And I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer, but the bigger you get, right, the more you grow and the more you invest. And so I'm gonna say from the beginning it was just about, well, let me invest in my coaching, let me invest in my demos. Then it became, I've got to invest in, create an S Corp or an LLC or let me invest into a better studio now. And then also I have to invest in other things. Now I've gotten to the point where if I haven't grown every year, I'm looking at my growth. And if I'm not growing, I have to figure out, well what do I need to do to continue that growth? And we can talk about outsourcing, right? I pay people, gosh, for at least 10 years, I've been paying people to help me do things. And the team, I have a team and and that team again is another investment in my business and in my growth. Lau: Yes. I mean, we can flower this out for hours, this program because we can't even get into the level of detail as you grow. Like we both have a business, roughly both of us are at like the 15 year mark. So can you stay static? Sure. Can you stay in a comfort zone? Absolutely. And I totally am okay with that and respect people who say, I'm capped, I'm at my ceiling, I'm happy with what I'm doing. I'm happy with my services, but I'm not. Like, I'm insatiable in the sense of wanting to provide more value, to educate more, to lift the level of income, to go from, as they say now in the ether, it's very big. Go from six figure to seven figure. How do you do that? Well, you do that through scaling. So everything that you're talking about, Anne, that we built our our businesses on, which is the person, the personality, the personalization, which is what we try to bring to our copy as talent. Right? How do we personalize a real person. Also, there's a sacrifice in that too. And it's a very hard gray zone. How do I keep the personalization and keep the boutiqueness of my product and scale? Which is automization, which is about, you know, you're in the whole AI world. It's about like, how do I get into a place where things are being funneled and things are being structured in a system? It's no longer high touch. Like I don't have to be a part of every transaction. And then at the end of the day, it's not about me anymore; it's about the process or the product. And that's like to wrap your brain around that, when you start a business that's so personal and so high touch, is just a jump. It's a jump. It's a transition that a lot of us are working towards making. Keeping it personal. Keeping it real for us. Keeping it something we love and care about, but allowing our control to get out of the way so that other systems and controls can come in. And keep providing value at a much larger level. Anne: Absolutely. And I think in terms of money, (laugh) I say money, and I don't want people to think -- Lau: I like how you said that. Anne: -- that Anne, money, she's obsessed with money, that Anne. But here's the deal for me, like again, I always talk about wanting to grow my business. And so for me, it becomes a challenge. And I've always been a girl that takes on challenges. And so you have to feel comfortable with money, number one. And you have to feel comfortable investing money to make money. Right? And then to be accepting of that money. And again, that goes back to like, know you're worth, charge an appropriate fee so that you can make that money, so that you can reinvest in parts of your business to continue to grow, and take that opportunity to just embrace the thought of money (laugh) in abundance. Right? You're always talking about abundance, Lau. And again, I'm not gonna get too woo woo here, but I think manifesting that worth, you need to manifest that worth out to your potential clients so that they say, oh yeah, absolutely. My goodness, can I pay you more money to do what you're doing, (laugh)? Lau: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anne: That's what I want. And really that's how it comes. And I think that as entrepreneurs, you have to not just think of yourself as a voiceover artist. That's why I'm always saying, I'm not just a, a voiceover actor, a voiceover artist. I am an entrepreneur, and I am as much in tune with growing my business as I am with getting the next gig. Lau: Yeah. No question about it. And you have to figure that out over time. You know, I became someone who became most comfortable -- here was talk about being in a discomfort zone. I was in a discomfort zone opening a business and putting everything on the line. But I figured out about myself, which ultimately became my brand, was I was much happier giving value to someone else and growing their career and seeing them flourish than for myself. And that's a pure irony 'cause I was an actor for many years. I was a voice talent for many years. But that was a level of sacrifice that I was willing to make because I had to really honestly identify what is your niche? What is your niche? What do you offer the best? What do you do the best? You can do 10 million things, but what do you do the best? And I figured out it was, I like leading I like creation. I'm the idea creator. And I like executing those more than I like doing the talent piece for myself. And that took me years to figure that out. That was a revelation. I almost felt guilty about that because I was in such an actor's mindset for so many years. Anne: Very interesting. Lau: And I thought, why would you give that up? Why would you stop doing that? I've had clients that say, why aren't you doing it? I'd say, okay. Because I was building a business that was giving this value to other people and that satisfied me. That satisfied me tremendously. And I figured out that that's okay. Like that's enough. And it, not only is it enough, but you've got a lot more to build. Anne: That's like coaching and teaching for me. Right? I mean, again, it's something that -- and performing as well --but I think that inherent, I like to mentor, to inspire, to help people grow their businesses, to grow their skills. And that to me gives the joy a lot of the joy in my business. And yes, money. (laugh), again money. And I say that unabashedly and unashamedly because I need to pay the bills. I do, I need to pay the bills. But it's not the top game. It's, I've gotta have joy first and then that money will come. I believe that. Because if I'm following my business, if I'm following my gut and my intuition to how I wanna grow that business, I'm always chasing the joy and the passion. And if that happens to be in my business, then yes, I'm going to yield a profit. Lau: Yeah. And I think it comes down to too is women in our industry and in the world at large, we're always figuring out, you know, what does value mean? What is our value in the world and in this industry? Value is many things. It's monetary, it's actual process related. It's sacrifice and charity. It's, it's a lot of things. But at the bottom line, we can't be afraid of the money, and contracts, and negotiation, and saying -- one of the more famous campaigns of L'Oreal that I always loved was get this, and I'm worth it. You know what I mean? That was a L'Oreal campaign, I thought as a kid, I was like, ooh, that makes me cringe. It's like so arrogant to say that, whatever. But as you get older and you've build your business, you have to say, here's what I provide. This is a value to you. And it's worth it. Right? There's a worth to it. Anne: Absolutely. And it's also, there's purpose beyond profit. Right? And I think that if some people might take a look at things like with big businesses and today, the big companies out there and say that greed is at the base of all of it. But I'm going to say that for me, it's not greed, but I wanna say that as I prosper, right, again, I want to give back even more. It comes from a place of, well I personally like think that wealth is more than just money. It can be mindset, it can be time, it can be a lot of things. But as my business grows and my financial wealth grows, I am willing to donate. I'm willing to share that, be philanthropic. And so I think a lot of times when people criticize billionaires and millionaires and say it's an uneven system -- but I'll tell you, there's a lot of billionaires that do good as well as make a lot of money. Lau: Sure. Absolutely. And I can tell you the stats now is that 99% of companies in our nation, all companies in our nation are considered small business. And I started to research what is small business? Small business is defined as 500 or less employees. So I felt so satisfied knowing I was a small business. But I was in the company of most businesses. Anne: Yes, absolutely. Lau: Most businesses are small. And so there's layers of this sacrifice that you're looking at to say, okay, well if I need to make money in order to survive, make it a viable business, in our industry would say tag, what's our tag -- one of the best financial advisors who I love so much, Susie Orman, used to say it's people first, then money, then things. And I love that. And I sort of live by that in my own right, because it's, for me, relationships. It's about value, it's about -- but right behind it is money because I can't keep doing that and sustaining that without financial benefit, nor can anyone. And when we go back to the origins of our businesses, Anne, and when we're starting our businesses, and you have --take your pot of gold, you take your savings. I like you, was a really good saver. I'm very frugal. I'm not a super materialistic person. So I would tend to save the money. I would take that pot of gold, take that savings and say, I'm not spending anything. Even though it's scary, I'm not. I'm investing in something that I know is viable. And that to me is the first step of having a real business and saying, I have the belief system. I have the belief system based on research, homework, relationships, and knowledge of what my skillset is that this can work and this will work. And as they say, failure is not an option. It's not an option. Don't give yourself an out. Like keep yourself accountable. I oftentimes say I am the toughest, toughest BOSS I've ever worked for. Anne: Oh my God. Me too. I'm a real witch. Lau: Tough. Anne: Yeah. (laugh). Yeah. I said, oh my God, that I do that. I'm a real -itch. Lau: (laugh) that big. Right. What is she making me do today? Right. But that's that accountability, it's the internal accountability that I know creates sustainability. That's what it does. Anne: And I think -- one thing I always like to bring up is I keep this in mind. Mind your own business, your own business. And that means don't let others influence you on what your business should look like, how much money you should be making, that kind of a thing. Because in reality it is your business. And honestly, nobody needs to know. And as a matter of fact, I'm always really quiet. Number one, I work a lot in the area of the market that has NDAs. And so I'm very low profile on any work that I'm doing or any gigs that I'm getting. And I don't even like to necessarily report. Some people put money, oh, I made so much money this week and clients. And, and that for me is not the way to really talk about my business because I think in that way, some people think maybe it inspires some people, but I also think there's a lot of people who aren't talking about that, that it makes feel bad. They feel bad about that. And I don't want any of you BOSSes out there to feel bad about your business because it is your business. And that the same goes for, I'm gonna say this, whatever money you're making, I mean, yes, there are concerns I have with certain online casting sites, but I will never judge someone for running their business the way they see fit because it is your business. Lau: Me too. And that's, of course, we all know that's the biggest, one of the bigger sources of conversation especially in the early to mid-range market of people who are in the market. It's like, should I do this? Should I be on a pay-to-play? Should I do that? And here's what I say, I simply say this as a coach, I'm putting my coaching hat on, saying Listen, you have a business that you are running, and you have to sit down with pen and paper, and you have to say, what am I reaching for this year? What are my goals and how am I going to get them? And you need to leave everyone out of that. The circle you've created are there for you to come back to, to connect to, to befriend, to help. But that's not the time. The time is your inner search. My inner search is, I want to do this. I need to do this. How am I going to do this? When you start listening to too many voices and too many points of view, you get really confused. And at the end of the day, you have to cook your dinner, you have to eat it, and you have to live with what it tasted like. Anne: And there's nothing wrong with supplemental income while you're building your business. I mean, in any industry, we've all got our talents. And so especially for me coming from the corporate educational world into an entrepreneurship with my own business, that's night and day in terms of (laugh). Oh my gosh. Before I didn't have to worry about who's doing the accounting. I just show up, I show up to my job, but do my job. I get paid every two weeks. Now all of a sudden, that is so not what I'm doing with an entrepreneur business. Lau: A lot of folks are coming in and they're under this delusion of like, how do I get what you have? How do I come in at the rate that you're at? I say, I said, okay, well you have to do like 30 years and you have to do this, this, and this. Like side hustle was my middle name when I -- before I opened. Before I opened my studio, I literally was what they call in in California, you know this term, a highway flyer. What I would do is I'd get in my car and I'd go to six different colleges. This was after graduate school. Six, count it, guys, six, 'cause I was adjunct. I was not a full-time. And I would teach two to three classes per college per semester. Count it. I was up to 15 classes one semester. Right? Because I was adopting children. I had to have cash for that. I was starting a business. I had to have cash for that. And you have to have cash flow. It can't be tied up. You have to have flow ready to go. I like to say right now I loved it'cause I'm like a type A personality. So I loved all that stuff. But to the average person, that's crazy. They'd say, wait a second, how did you do all of that? And you were a performer and you were a director, and, and, and? I said, because I loved it and I had passion for it and I was working my way up the ladder. Anne: Yep. Absolutely. Lau: So to speak. Do I wanna do that now? No, I don't because I'm at a different place now. But I can't come in saying, oh, how do I walk into this, Lau, and how do I get all the clients I want and be at six figures? And I said, well you gotta pay some dues. You have to pay some dues and it's not bad either. I had fun doing that. I loved it. I had a ball. I was like always testing. How much can I do? Where can I go? Anne: Yeah. I'm right there with you. And I'm gonna say the challenge to me -- Lau: I miss it. (laugh) Anne: -- that floors me. I mean that just makes me so excited. The challenge. Right? Rising up to the challenge. But it's not that I didn't curl up in a fetal ball (laugh) every once in a while and cry, just saying, guys. There have been times when it's frustrating and it's hard, and there's nobody there. Sometimes I'm like, why? Why do I do this? I can't even talk to anybody about it. Like I could be running into these issues. And I'm like, I don't know what to do. I've never experienced this before. How do I do this? And then there's no answers. And I'm like, (laugh), why is it so hard? It's so hard. But guys, most days I like to say I rise to the challenge, but I'm also gonna completely admit to you that yeah, sometimes I'll curl up in the fetal position and cry, but it's worth it. Lau: But you know what? You know how you get out of that position? You know how you get out? 'Cause we all do that. When you email me and you say, Lau, what we just did made a difference. Anne: Yeah. Lau: And then I keep that. I keep every single one of those. I put 'em in my little e folder, I'll print a few out. And just when I'm like sobbing my eyes out thinking none of this is worth it, I look at that and I go, oh my God. But for this person, it literally changed their life. It literally changed the trajectory of how they think. To me, there's no better work than that. Anne: I agree. Lau: And, and I get to make money. And I get to make my own hours and my own structure, and yes, it'll drive you crazy 'cause most of us need structure and usually expect it from someone else. But it's so wonderful to have that level of creative and artistic freedom. Anne: Agreed. Totally agree. Lau: I'd rather work my butt off for myself. (laugh). Anne: I can't ever work for somebody again. Pretty much. That's the way it works. Lau: I can't either. Anne: Except for voiceover 'cause it's one. And you know, get in, get out real quick. I mean I have some great clients that I keep coming back to, but yeah, absolutely. Lau: Of course, of course. That doesn't mean you can't job in for an agency or job in for this. But that's not the same as running your own biz. When you run your own shop, you don't mind working really, really, really hard. 'cause you know you're building something that's a legacy for you. Anne: Absolutely. Woo, what a great conversation. I'll tell you. So BOSSes, money, money, money, (laugh). Don't be afraid of it. Use it wisely. Invest it wisely so that you can grow your business. Lau and I certainly have the faith, we have the faith in all of you out there that this can be done. You can be successful. So don't be afraid of money. And also I'm gonna say that when you, BOSSes, you are BOSSes out there. And if you have a little bit of extra money, maybe you have a local nonprofit that's close to your heart. If you know a nonprofit that you would like to do more to help them and to give back, you can visit 100voiceswhocare.org to find out more. And a big shout out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can network and connect like BOSSes, like Lau and myself. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Lau: See you next week, bye. Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Video game acting is a unique art form that requires strong acting skills & an imaginative approach to storytelling. Anne is joined by special guests Dave Fennoy & Randall Ryan to discuss all things Game VO. Voice actors must bring their characters to life in a way that's authentic & impactful for players. Believe it or not, the average age for video game players is 40 years old, and these people have been playing games for 15+ years. These players are seeking a high level of story sophistication & depth of character when playing games. For a voice actor, Game VO recording is often a solitary and non-linear process due to logistics, but it still requires a deep understanding of the character you're playing, the world they inhabit, and their relationship to other characters. Invent as you go. Know your character, the world, and how your character would react in the moment. As with any genre, it's best not to overthink things too much before recording, but instead trust yourself as an actor and allow yourself to get creative during the session itself. And if you want to work with the pros, stay tuned for a unique opportunity to relax, recharge, and level up your game VO skills with Dave & Randall… Transcript It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I am pumped to level up my BOSS knowledge about Game VO, and I am so excited and honored to have the best in the industry, Dave Fennoy and Randall Ryan. Dave is a renowned voice actor and instructor based in LA with a vast portfolio of work in commercials, narration, TV promo, animation, and of course video games. He's best known for his character, Lee Everett in the Walking Dead Game, and has voiced characters for more than 500 games on some of the industry's biggest titles. And IMDB has named him one of the 20 best male game voices of all time. Randall Ryan began his career as a musician in touring rock bands, and today is an award-winning composer and producer of gaming and commercial music scores. He co-founded Hamster Ball Studios back in 1995, where he's been directing talent and producing game audio for more than 20 years and has since contributed to numerous high profile video game titles. Also, co-host of Let's Talk Voiceover podcast and still performs the occasional live gig and thinks dogs make the best people. And I of course, think cats, but maybe that's for another podcast discussion, Randall, I'm not sure. Randall: Who's your animal spirit podcast? Anne: There you go. Guys, thank you so much for joining me. I am so excited to talk to you today, Dave: Oh, it's our pleasure. Happy to be here. Randall: Absolutely. Anne: So what I love, BOSSes, is that I have both sides of the glass here today so that we can get a really comprehensive view of game VO as it exists today. So I'd like to start off with Randall and ask you as a casting director, can you give the BOSSes an idea of the game VO market as it stands today, let's say, compared to 20 years ago when you first started? Randall: Well, yeah, that's almost an unfair comparison. I think what I would say is 20 years ago, games were just kind of coming into their own as even an art form. And now as I think a lot of people know, it is the gorilla of the industry. I mean, last year games sold more than film and music combined. Anne: Wow. Randall: Which is just amazing. And the other thing that I see that's very different from 20 years ago is 20 years ago, it was certainly the wild west when it came to voice acting. It was often like the person of the cubicle next to the developer, and they were just throwing some voices in. And if they hired actors, there was not a lot of, I don't know if I would use the word respect. It just wasn't really truly a real part of -- VO was an afterthought. And I think the difference is, is now is not only has gaming VO reached a really high place as art form, but the thing that I really see and, and it's the reason that I think you don't pay attention to game voice as your own peril if you're a voice actor, is it is changing every other genre. Commercials are different because of gaming acting, and even for the people that don't know it that are writing copy, they've been growing up with games. They've been playing games, and they, and they also see other commercials that have been going to more gaming acting principles. And so even if they don't know that, that's where that creative is driving from -- bottom line is that is where that creative is driving from. So even if you're not going to be in games, I think it's really important as an actor to understand what it takes to be a VO game actor. It's kind of like, even if you're gonna be on film, you really need to understand theater. You need to understand all the principles of it. It's very much the same kind of thing. You may not wanna be a Broadway actor, but you don't study theater kind of at your own peril. I think it's kind of the same idea. Anne: Well, probably if I had to count the amount of times you said acting -- Randall: Yeah. Well Anne: Right, in that response? So acting is so very important. Not just I think to game view, but just to voiceover in general, especially now. And I'd like to ask you, Dave, let's talk a little bit about acting and your thoughts on why it's so important that voice talent today really have that acting prowess. Dave: You know, when we talk in the general world of voiceover, acting is important, but it's more important when you are looking at video games. We become a good actor in voiceover to be able to be ourselves or a character similar to ourselves for commercials and narration, or even TV promos. But we're looking for something wider range, a much wider range of who these characters are and with a different purpose. If you're doing TV promos or commercials, your job is to get people to buy a product, watch a TV show. As an actor in a video game, your character drives the story forward. Whoever your character is, whatever it is they are doing, they are part of a story, not part of trying to sell you something or get you to do a particular act. And what the audience for video games is now, one, they're averaging about 40 years old, and they've been playing video games for 15 to 20 years. And they want an adult experience, and they don't mean adult like chicka chicka wow wow. Dave: But they're looking for cinematic performances, which means more subtle, more real. Your performance has to fit into the world that these games are in. It's not about your voice, no matter what your voice sounds like. It's about can you let this character inhabit you and bring this character to life with just words on a page and a microphone? And there are various techniques that really are founded in acting principles that'll help you get there. Randall: And, Anne, I'm gonna add one thing to what you said too. You are right that your primary job in a commercial is to, I guess you could say, is to sell a product. But really in essence, even as an actor, is that really your job? Your job is still to inhabit that scripts, and, and this is where I think some of the changes are coming from. And so in the same way that there are certain people who are spokespeople that the whole celebrity thing has happened, but a lot of times you're putting the celebrity in because people like them. They aren't really selling -- Dave: Because people like them and believe them. Randall: And believe them. Absolutely. And so people are putting him in there not to actually sell. You know, did Matthew McConaughey sell Lincoln? He didn't. He drove around and said some talking. But he's playing in essence, even though it's him, he's playing this character. And I think even in commercial, to understand what that character is supposed to be that the writing is, you still have to be that character more now than you ever did before. Dave: Which brings us back to your point, Randall, that learning to be a good video game actor or good actor will help you across the board in voiceover. Anne: Yeah. I'm just gonna say, with my experience working with students for not just commercial, but a lot of the long format narration, like corporate narration and explainers and, and medical, I mean, even then there is a role. It may not be as dynamic or as long played out as, let's say, a video game, but there is still that acting that has to come into play. And I'm gonna talk about how important I think it is, especially now with the advancements in technology. But I wanted to ask you about the story. Okay, so the story for a video game is a lot different than, let's say, a story that's laid out in front of you. So like a story, if you're assuming that you're gonna be in a commercial, you're gonna be selling a product, there's a character backstory you can develop. Like you want it to end up that the person agrees with you and says, yes, this is a great product for me. If it's corporate narration, it's kind of a nicely wrapped up little story about a corporate story about their brand. But with video games, it's ever changing, and it's not necessarily all laid out in front of you. And I was gonna also do the example of an audiobook where you've got the entire book and the story's laid out in front of you. But yet with a video game, do you know the entire story right away? Or is it something that develops? Dave: Chances are you will never ever see the entire script. The video game industry is very secretive. We have all in the video game industry signed hundreds of NDAs, non-disclosure agreements, because they're very secretive. They don't want anybody to know or share what's going on in their game. So even when you audition, sometimes you have to sign an NDA before you can even do the audition or send it in with your audition. And you're gonna get a few lines of whoever this character is, maybe a little bit about the game itself, but never "this is what the entire storyline is and this is what happens." You will never see that script. If you're an actor in a movie, in a play, in a television show, you'll see the whole script. You'll know your character's arc. Being a character in a video game is much more like being who you are. You have certain tendencies, a world, a belief system. But when you walk out the door every day, you don't know what's gonna happen to you. Anne: That's a very different skillset, I would think. Because each and every time you are getting that script or that little tiny portion of it, you're either developing the scene, the backstory, and the emotion. And so that's like constant, like I would think acting requirement for that just is through the roof . Dave: Well, you developed the character in that audition. But when you get there, say you did five, maybe ten lines, now you've got 100, maybe 500 lines. And some of them may be paragraphs or monologues. And it's a matter of being in character and going with what is this character thinking, feeling, doing, being, who are they talking to in this particular moment in time? Randall: Yep. God, there's so many things that that just brings to mind, but, well, what is Mark Dale's quote, a mutual friend of ours, he's a director in London. Yeah. Dave: This is the exhaust of the acting engine. Randall: That's one. And then he is got that little spy thing, which I think when you're talking about how do you deal with a video game character, that to me is like, yes, that's actually it. Dave: One of the things Mark likes to talk about is the spy who is in another city, another country, another place using a different name, dressing different, pretending to be this other person. And his life or her life depends on how well they roll with the punches, roll with a different situation, somebody else asking them particular questions, and it's constant improvising in character. Randall: Yes. Anne: I love that. That's such a different way to look at that. Okay, so when you're talking about how to, I guess, evolve that character is sometimes the story -- well, I imagine you would know this -- developed as you also developed the character and then the story might change? Dave: Well, you know, it's interesting. Uh, during the Walking Dead game, sometimes I would arrive at the studio, and the script got there 20 minutes before me. So yes, actually sometimes the writing is right there with you. So sometimes they wouldn't have been able to tell you anyway because certain things hadn't been written yet. Especially in something that's ongoing, episodic like that, but whether they know it or not, you as an actor are not going to see the entire script. You are gonna live this character moment by moment. So you are living in the world of, what am I reacting to? What am I thinking? What am I feeling? What am I doing? Who am I talking to? And what's that relationship? Which we do as actors anyway, but now it's moment by moment. Anne: Now Randall. So then in terms of directing a talent, right? What is that like for you? Because you also probably don't get the script right away either, and so you're directing and so what's that process like? Randall: Well, I usually get it a little bit sooner than the actors, but you're right. It's not like I've been sitting there with it for months or weeks or anything like that. So everybody has got a different philosophy. I guess I'll tell you mine, but I think most directors I talk to will probably tell you something very similar to this. I think this is true of other genres, but video games, it almost has to be true. You cannot go in with this voice in your head or character in your head. Like, this person is going to be like this. It has to be a collaborative process, because you haven't, as a director, haven't had time to absorb all the stuff. But even if you did, even those occasions where you do, writers write, and there has to be a translation, and that actor is coming in with sometimes, you know, you're looking at Dave says 500, sometimes you're looking at maybe 500 lines for that character. You're looking at thousands of lines of script, and we're not gonna put people together, ensemble. And there are a lot of reasons for that. I, you know, I know that's a sticking point for a lot of people, but there are a lot of reasons that's probably not gonna happen anytime soon. Long and the short of it is I have to trust the actor. So the actor and I both have to be working together to come up with this character. They come in with an idea, I come in with an idea, the writer comes with an idea. At some level check your ego at the door. We're gonna work this out as we go. And that's a lovely process when it works well because once it starts clicking, everybody's discovering, and that's where you get this magical performance that you couldn't have scripted it like that. But that also really derives more than anything else from actors who are comfortable with this, who aren't thrown by change, who are able to invent as they go. And I think so much of that invention is that understanding what Dave said, where are you? What happened before you got here? What are you reacting to? How do you feel the other person? These are acting principles, but I think they're also just mindset principles that you have to get into as you're observing humanity and everything else. And some people do that extraordinarily well. Dave: You know, one of the things I find working with students is generally they don't realize how much time and effort they need to spend in discovering everything about this character and everything about a particular scene that they're gonna do. I like to tell people, well, look, we've got words on a page or screen and a microphone, and we have to stay on mic and we have to read the words. An actor on stage, an actor on set has memorized their script. They are in costume. They have another actor that they're bouncing energy off of. There is blocking, they're gonna move from this place to this place. They know what the action is that they're going to do and they can do it. Once again, we're reading words on a page in front of a microphone. But we have to bring the same level of acting to those words that are on a page through that microphone. And the only way to do that is to put yourself in the place of that actor, say on set, on scene.what am I wearing? You know, what does it look like around me? Am I sitting, am I standing? Am I walking? This person I'm talking to, what's my relationship with this person? Where are they in relationship to me? Or where are they when there's more of them in relationship to me? What just happened, I mean, in the last couple of seconds, that I'm saying or doing what I'm doing, what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling? It's that type of preparation and using your imagination that brings you to believable performances. Anne: So Dave, when you're creating your character, before you're going into record -- and that might evolve, right, as you do that -- what sort of steps are you taking to envelop that character in a believable way for the script that you have? Dave: Well, just the things I was talking about, you wanna take in the whole script. Too many people I think wanna start, oh, what are my lines? Oh, is my line, my line. Bullshit. Bullshit. My line, my line. Dave: And we wanna start with the big picture. If there is a description of what the game is, take that in. Video games are very much like movies. As a matter of fact, they're like 70-hour movies. And whatever genre you can think of, including romcom, for a movie, there is an analogous one in video game. So where does this game live? What kind of world does it live in? Then who is your character? And as much information as they give you, take that all in. Now I realize sometimes it's three paragraphs of information about your character and then five lines. You can't fit everything about that character into those lines. But you can find how this character would react in this situation. What is their worldview? Create that. One of the things I suggest to people from time to time is before you read the lines, read the character description, and then ad lib the character, talking about himself based on those descriptions. He was born here, his parents died, he was kidnapped, he was made a slave, he met a wizard. Tell your story, but without reading it; just off the cuff, improvise it based on the few things that are said there before you get into the script. And once you're in the script, you gotta pay attention to all the alternate lines besides your own and the stage direction. I'm amazed how often actors will -- they'll get their lines, but the alternate lines and stage directions they ignore. All of those are clues that you've, you've gotta take in. Anne: Yeah. I say actually to my students that even for like something that may seem dry or boring like a corporate narration, the words are there for a reason. Somebody was paid to write those words, and every word has to have a meaning. And I think that there's so many people that just rush in to their studios, and like you were saying, just line by line, and they don't take in the whole story or try to imagine the story, that moment before. There's a moment before even I think in every piece of voiceover copy, there's a moment before. And I think if you can take the time, right, to develop that story, it will help. Let's talk a little bit about -- because I know you've got something happening, Dave, at Voiceover Atlanta, an efforts class, I think, or an X-session. Dave: Yeah. Anne: Let's talk about maybe not necessarily efforts, but body and how important your body is to be able to, I guess, express better acting. Dave: Your body informs your voice. Once again, it doesn't start here. It starts with all of this. It starts with the look on your face. It starts with your honest reaction, your honest thinking, and those thoughts, those feelings will trigger a physicality that makes what you're saying come out in a certain way. Randall had mentioned something, we are translating the written word into the spoken word. They are not the same thing. I actually go so far as to tell myself, look, I'm not that into the words. They're not the most important thing. If you're crying or screaming, and there's a dialogue that's going on through it, and I can't quite understand what you're saying, for me, that's okay. Because what I really wanna understand is what this character's going through in this particular time. Now, if it's something very vital that has to be said, that leads to something else, yeah, we'll want to hear. But voiceover 101, you wanna sound like you're smiling. What do you do? Put a smile on your face. You wanna sound like you're a little more important? Stand up just a little bit straighter and suddenly there it is. You wanna seem like you're a little bit more tired or something? Let your body relax, and there it is. How a character with a limp, or with a hunchback, or with a injury to their face, how they're gonna express themselves, or they're of a certain age and, and the voice has gotten tired from smoking and drinking alcohol -- these are what we're trying to find. A lot of people will say, well, I'm putting on this voice, but why? There's nothing wrong with creating a voice, but why? How does this voice serve the character? What is it about this character that that voice is there? So your physicality, if you're somebody, maybe your head's off a little side from an old injury, or maybe you're that guy that's really tough and you're always got your chest out and ready for action. That's what changes your voice. Not something that you're putting on, but something that you allow to happen based on so many other things: your thought, your feeling, your action, your relationship and who you are, what your natural physicality or the natural physicality of that character is. Randall: When you're talking about the body and you're talking about the voice -- I'll pull all three of these together, what I think at least is kind of simply -- you are acting in your emotions have nothing to do with your character voice. That voice that you put on is a filter. And where people get confused -- because historically this would happen. That voice that you're doing is somehow your character, and then that becomes caricature. That's not true. That voice is a filter. And when you talk about body parts, all the things that Dave just talked about, you could be the age you're at, and if you've got a hip injury, or you've got a limp, or you've got a lung issue, it's gonna sound a certain way. So all you're doing after that with that voice is, it's a filter. If it's a guitar, it's, you're just turning the overdrive up a little bit on the distortion. But what you play is still gonna be what you play. It might make you play a little bit differently,'cause you got a little more sustain if we're gonna use the guitar thing. But ultimately you're gonna play what you play. And that's, I think the mental process it has to be. You are acting that emotion, you are acting that injury, you're acting that malady, you're acting that physical trait that you have. And then if it calls for it, change your voice placement, change your register, change your nasality, you know, all of that stuff. Anne: Now Randall, you mentioned something earlier that I wanted to ask you, about when you're recording the characters, they're not typically done in ensemble format, right? Randall: Right. Anne: And typically the talent is recording from their studio or in a studio with you. Right? Randall: Yeah. Anne: Why is that? Why is there not -- because I would think if you're bouncing off other characters it might -- Randall: Yes, there would be. And sometimes you get that opportunity, but there are two reasons really. One, you have non-linear stories. In a movie and a TV and something of that nature, you have a beginning and an end. So it actually becomes very easy to say, well, we'll put these actors together -- we'll say a movie more than a tv. 'cause I think for TV set, you know, everybody shows up the same time. But we know we're gonna need you on these days 'cause you get at all your scenes that these people and they're gonna need you on these other days. When you have 50 characters that are all speaking. And when you have interactions with any and all of them, the time to actually do that, the logistic issue to do that is almost impossible. And that's one of your absolute biggest reasons right there. When it really comes down to logistics, if I'm going to have Dave come in and do 500 lines, do 1000 lines, and in those lines he's got soliloquy lines, he's got 20 that are interacting with this one person, you just can't really pull that together in the same way. And the other thing in a movie that's different than, than a video game is there's all this back end -- of course movies are more than just about filming, about having the actors there. But that is so much of a focus, where in the game there's all this other stuff you have to construct. You know, think about a movie. If you actually had to construct the world in which you live, now make it non-linear, now make it so that there're branching storylines, or that if you go this way this happens, it actually becomes logistically almost impossible to do. Anne: That makes a lot of sense. Now, in terms of, let's say the flow of what you do as a director, once you cast something, is it mostly just when the actors available they record their lines? I mean there's gotta be so many things, I would think that the story's gotta be there, right? The game writers have to have the story written. and then you have to get all of the characters to record their lines. And then -- so tell me a little bit about that process. Randall: Well, that's a big thing. I'll try to make it kind of short. So one of the things you really have to do is at some point you gotta lock the script down. And trust me, that can sometimes be an issue. But you just do, you have to lock the script down, and you have to get everything that you're going to get. Of course there has to be some when the actor's available, if I, if an actor not available for a week 'cause they're on set doing something else, of course you can't use 'emthen. But really that becomes the puzzle piece that comes on this end of scheduling everybody. Dave, I've got this time on Monday and Tuesday. I don't have anything till Thursday. Do any of those fit with you? Bam. You lock it down, you, you do that. The other thing that is also different about games that -- I mean as budgets go up, maybe this will change, but at least for now, again, some of it is logistics and some of it is budget -- I cast Dave to do a role. By the way, when Dave shows up, sometimes he knows ahead of time, but a lot of times it's like, hey, there're probably gonna be a couple more, just letting you know. And he shows up and because you've got soldier numbers 1 through 10 and townsperson number 1 through 20, it's like, Dave, can you pick up a townsperson? Can you pick up a soldier? By the way, they can't sound like the character that you're actually in here to do. You know? So that's another thing that happens all the time. Anne: Yeah. And I always like for talent to understand what happens like outside of their little bubble of just voicing something. And so that's why I think it's wonderful to have the two of you there, 'cause it can kind of see how you really have to work together in order to produce and do something successfully together. So it's good to know like what you have to do as a producer or director. And of course the talent has to really, I think, be able to perform pretty much on demand, is what I'm thinking. That's what it's sounding like to me. Dave: Exactly pretty much on demand. . And it's interesting from my perspective, whether I'm in my home studio or I go into another studio, there will be a producer there, the writer might be there, the director might be there. And I, I think the director's job is, the director's the person who knows how to communicate with actors. The writer may be able to tell you, well this is what's going on and so forth. But they have a tendency to keep talking too much, and they're more invested than they need to be to get the performance you want, whereas the director is your guide. When you are at home doing your audition, you are your own director. You have to make choices. But when you arrive on your gig or the gig arrives at your house, and you're on camera there, now you have somebody to take some of that weight off. And maybe they've listened to your audition and said, well you know, you made a good acting here, but that was the wrong choice. What actually is happening is this, and our job as actors is to be able to create the thought, feeling, attitude, movement of a character, and if it's something different, it's up to us to just make it different. Anne: I love that you said that cause there's so many people I know that seem to be afraid of making that decision whether it's right or wrong and committing to the acting, because they don't necessarily know what's happening and so therefore they just play it safe. Dave: And beyond playing it safe, they don't really know. They haven't made a definite decision. And the person who is listening to that audition come in, it doesn't say anything to them. You're probably going to do better making wrong strong choices than no choices. Randall: Absolutely. Or safe choices. Absolutely. Anne: I love that. I love that. I got so excited that you said, 'cause I was just like totally connecting with that. Let's talk a little bit about talent that might wanna get into video game voiceover and maybe the demo, which I think is probably an important part of helping them maybe get their foot in the door. Let's talk about what's important in a game demo. Dave: It's interesting. We were talking about this with each other just the other day. I always liken video game acting --I always tell my students, look, I want you to think of yourself as a character actor. When we think about character actors, and even movie stars who started as character actors, there's something about them, the way they speak, the rhythm of it, their look that we have a reaction to, an emotional reaction to. And every one of us has some of that. You may not feel like you are ABC to yourself, but people who encounter you, that's what they see. So we wanna find out who you are, and now we wanna display that character, that you, the truth of you in a variety of characters from a variety of times in a variety of places with a variety of points of view. So we might be in space, we might be medieval, we might be futuristic, we might be post-apocalyptic, we may be a doctor, a lawyer, a soldier, a wizard, a swordsman, a thief. We wanna bring all these characters with dissimilar energies, dissimilar worlds together to demonstrate all the things that you can do. Randall: Yeah. Be authentic first. I mean, I like to listen to a demo. I have a 1 and a 1A. 1 is be authentic. That has to be it. I have to stop listening to you as an actor 'cause there's time for that after the demo's done. When I hear a snippet, whatever your 12 seconds or whatever the time is with that character, ideally, and I know you, you can't always do this, but ideally when that clip stops, you're like, no, wait, what happens? 'Cause you got invested in it, you know? And then the second thing is a certain amount of versatility. Now, I think unfortunately to most people, versatility they think means different voices. And it is true that that is part of it. There's no question that you have to be able to demonst --'cause if there're gonna be three characters in a game, I can't hear the same voice. So yes, you do have to be able to learn to change your register, to change your voice placement, to change accents, to do all this other kind of stuff. But ultimately it really comes out of your attitude difference and your emotional difference. And being -- if you're hyped, if you are just in this manic place, your voice is just gonna sound different than if you are at the bottom of the well depressed, even being the same person. So find those things, not just the emotions of them, but what does your voice do when it does that? How are you delivering things in a different way when you find that? And that's where you get all this variance and you hear different people out of it. So that is definitely 1A. If you, if you're a one trick pony, if it's a good trick, you might get booked a lot, but you're just gonna up your game and up your bookings the more legitimate tricks you can show. I probably shouldn't use the word trick. The more legitimate shades of yourself that you can show, the more legitimate shades of what you do, the better it's gonna play for you. Dave: And let me just say this, there are people who can do lots and lots of accents, lots and lots of different voices, and sometimes that can kind of hurt you on your demo. If you've done so many different things that they don't come away with a sense of who you are. Randall: Right. Dave: You might not remember the name of so-and-so who did all these voices. None of them were the same. They may have all been really good, but you don't remember who this person is. Randall: Right. Dave: So I always say, look, start with who you are and keep coming back to who you are. You may have some in different accents and different voices, but start with you and keep coming back to you. Randall: Yep. I agree. Anne: So is there a time period -- I know that I work with so many students that are new, and they always wanna know, well, how long will I have to study? Or how long will I have to do this before I can create a demo? If you had to give your experience, how long would it take for someone to -- I don't even wanna think that it's all about the demo because really it's about the acting. Right? And it's about who you are as a voice actor. How long should a student expect to study acting in video game VO? Is it the same for everybody? Is there a length of time that you think, oh, after five years, this will be great? Or after one year, what do you guys think? Randall: Absolutely depends on the person. I think mentally, if you're talking to people who are getting into the business or are wanting to get into, even just, I've been doing commercial, I wanna do video games. Even if it's that, so somebody who has been working. I think if you mentally think two years of hard work, that's a good baseline. Now there are gonna be people who have all the tools that they need, and in six months they're just rocking and rolling. There are gonna be people that after two years, they're just now starting to figure it out. And it's gonna take 'em five. How do you know? But I think you need to be mentally prepared. Kinda like if you start a business up, I think this is gonna take me a $100,000 in a year. Double it or triple it and then you're probably safe. I think it's the same thing. Dave: And in so many ways, I think people getting into voiceover and not just for video games or animation, but for the various genre, each of the genres calls for something a little different. There are some rules of the road for all of them. I just think when you get to video games especially, from the smallest whisper to the loudest shout, from characters who very much might be like the disc jockey you used to be, or to the used car salesman that maybe you remember -- you're gonna see all those kinds of characters. If you come with some characters, with some idea of playing like you were when you were a kid, when you were playing cops or robbers or spaceman and aliens -- whatever it was, you weren't judging yourself. You were having a good time. And you put yourself completely into it. One of the big things I see with a lot of grown up people who now suddenly wanna do this, or maybe they've wanted to do it for a long time, but there's a timidity. Oh, I'm a little, I'm a little scared. I don't wanna, I don't wanna, I don't want anybody to think this is silly or -- you gotta give yourself to it and that holds people back. Your ability to read can hold you back. Because especially in video games and voiceover in general, we are reading in the moment. We've gotta take the words off the page and connect them to somebody. So I have run into people who've come to me, not often, but a couple people, I've said, look, you don't need me. You've got this. Get your demo done, you can do it with me or somebody else. But you're ready. There's some other people I've worked with for a long time, and I see improvement, but it's slow. But if that's where you really want to go, and you are getting better and getting better, stay on the road. Randall: Yeah. Anne: Yeah. It's a journey. It's a journey. So you guys have an exciting event coming up at the end of April I saw for Game VO. Tell us a little bit about that. Randall: Well, this really came out of an outgrowth of Dave and I; we talk a lot. We've known each other for a long time. And one of the things that we have not seen along the way is what I would call a throughput. There's nothing wrong with this. In fact, there's some wonderful things to do this, but you go to most conferences or retreats or whatever you want to call them, and there's not a real throughput. You get the promo person, you got the commercial person. And there's, there's some real value to that, you know, especially if you're working in multiple genres. But what we don't see anybody doing is, okay, we're gonna strip this down to the basics and take you through -- you know, you don't get to cherry pick. We're gonna take you through this whole thing. Okay. You went to drama school and you're like, and you wanna roll your eyes? I don't know about going back to drama school. I had a student, I shouldn't even call him a student, an extremely well known voice actor who took one of my recent two-day workshops. And when I saw his name on there, I was like, really? Well, that's interesting. I wonder why he's doing this. And you know, the thing that was really interesting is there was a technique that really truly went back to original acting. And this is a guy who's a drama school, totally trained, accredited, all this other kind of stuff. He's done so much other stuff that he literally had -- now it was easy to getting back in there, but he had forgotten to some degree like, no, you have to start here. He's got all these voices that he can do. He's a wonderful actor. You know, if you had mentioned your name, maybe he'd be like, really? Well that's the point. Somebody like that even didn't have that beginning. So all this throughput we have not seen. And so the idea that we wanna do is take people all the way through what it takes to really truly be a video game voice actor, from let's start with basics of acting all the way up to we're gonna do sessions, and you can't skip the steps along the way. You've gotta do this to this, to this, to this. Dave: I have to echo the same thing, that I've worked with students who have been on camera, on stage. And for them, the world of voice acting is completely different. And because they're used to memorization, and being in costume, and having another actor that they're working with, they are lost all too often when it's words on a page and a microphone. And sometimes it's just coming from this genre to that genre. If you're doing promos, TV promos, you can have a style. If you're a narrator, you can have a style. If you're doing commercials, you can have a style and work and do very well. With video games, style isn't gonna carry you but so far. You have to be an actor. Randall: It's a bigger thing. You know, it's, it's actually a bigger thing. You can't have a style. Dave: Style can be this big, but if you're gonna be an actor -- Randall: No, that's true. It's a range. It's not just a style, it's a range. Dave: Yeah. And learning how to connect to that, to your range. Anne: And now, so when is this event and how long is this event? Dave: Well, it's called Game VO Mexico 2023. It is happening in Akamal, Mexico. That's on the Yucatan Peninsula. And it's the 27th through the 30th of April. Anne: Okay. Three days. Randall: Three days. Dave: Three days. Anne: All right. Three days of intensive classes, sessions? Dave: Intensive classes, sessions, and it's gonna be fun. And in one of the most beautiful places in the world. We were doing some location scouting a couple of months ago. I was down there with Randall, and we went to a restaurant, and that night they said, oh, come back and watch the sea turtles make their little baby walk to the sea. It's those kinds of --there's iguanas around and toucans. You'll hear the monkeys in the tree. I mean, it's, it's an amazing place and it's very much outside of your norm. I don't know about you, but have you ever been someplace, you got outside of your house, outside of your city, a different place, and suddenly you could think differently? Anne: Oh yeah. It'll change your life. Dave: This is gonna be one of those places, one of those events that you'll be able to shed some things that have been holding you back and embrace some things that are gonna carry you forward. Anne: I love it. So end of April, where can people find out more information and sign up for this? Randall: Well, it's the website. It's gamevomexico.com. So just like it sounds. Dave: Gamevomexico.com. Anne: All right. Awesome. And for the BOSSes out there, you guys are going to give us a special coupon? Randall: That is correct. Anne: Just for the BOSSes. So if you guys want to, you are definitely getting a discount. Randall: It's a $500 discount. So it's, it's basically 10%. It's a sizable discount. Anne: That's awesome. Woo. So a $500 discount, you guys can go to that website and enter a coupon code, VO BOSS, to get that discount. That's amazing. So gamevomexico.com. Coupon code VO BOSS to get that discount. And how can BOSSes get in touch with either one of you? Let's say Dave, if they wanna get training? Dave: Oh, I'm so easy to find, they can email me at davefennoy@mac.com. They can go to my website, davefennoy.com and get in touch with me, and they can check me out every Wednesday at 6:00 PM Pacific for Ask Dave Fennoy anything. I promise I will talk about this. Randall: This is true. Anne: Yay. And Randall, what about you? How can people get in touch with you? Randall: The two easiest places, and I say easy because I've got the long email addresses. My company, what I do the direction through, is Hamster Ball Studios. So it's Randall, randall@hamsterballstudios.com. But on the other side, the stuff that I do as far as teaching and coaching and consulting, I probably shouldn't say coaching 'cause I don't, you know, Dave's the one on one guy. I'm more big macro, big picture, hey, wow, dude. But it's randall@thevoicedirector.world. Anne: Awesome. Thank you, guys, so very much. This was so informative, so wonderful, and we so appreciate that discount. BOSSes, check that out. Gamevomexico.com. Use that code of VO BOSS, get yourself a discount. BOSSes, I want to ask you a question. Do you have a local nonprofit that is close to your heart? Did you ever wish that you could do more to help them? Well, you certainly can. And visit 100voiceswhocare.org to learn how. Big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like BOSSes like us three today. Thank you, guys ,so much again, find out more at ipdtl.com. Everyone, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye. Randall: Take care, Anne. Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Your vocal brand is the key to getting noticed in this world of noise. It's much more than just the sound of your voice. It's who you are, what you believe in and what matters to you. Anne & Lau discuss what goes into a vocal brand & what you can do to develop yours. Vocal branding is all about uncovering your uniqueness in order to let it shine through in every project you take on. Take time to get to know yourself. What matters to you? Why are you a voice actor? A voice is like a fingerprint: no two are exactly alike. Once you've figured out what makes your vocal brand stand out, it's time to learn how to harness it. The key here is authenticity. And it's not just what you say—it's how you say it. Figuring out how to combine all these elements into one cohesive brand can seem overwhelming, but don't worry! Anne & Lau are here to show you how it's done. Transcript It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza. Welcome to the VO BOSS superpower series with the one and only Lau Lapides. Yay. Lau: Yay. Hey Anne. Anne: Hey, Lau. Lau: Love being back as always. Love it. Anne: Superpowers, superpowers. I love that we named our series Superpowers. Lau: Because we have so many of them. Anne: Yes. Lau: Like we can't even uncover, identify all of them. Anne: Business superpowers. And I think that our superpowers, it's in all aspects of our business, right? So including our superpowers to be able to stand out from the crowd. And to be unique. All businesses have competition. And I know that people talk about VO -- VO is so cool because there's competition like technically speaking, but not really, because every single one of us has such a unique product. And I think it's important that we know how to bring out that unique product and not just know how to bring that out. Also, to be able to market that. And that goes right into our brand. And so a lot of what I do with students is I will tell them that I am going to not only brand them in terms of what genre should I be in, but vocally brand them, right? And that really is something that's not just a visual brand on a website, but something that it is absolutely related to their product. Right? A vocal branding. Lau: Absolutely. Anne: So what does vocal branding mean to you, Lau? Lau: Oh gosh. It's such a big umbrella. It really is. I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind, Anne, is just having the knowledge of knowing as a coach, that no one in the world has the voice you have. Everyone has a unique sound, distinctively unique sound. Okay? They may have similar qualities, but they're distinctively unique. So number one, uncovering that uniqueness in your voice through specific qualities that you could maybe even poll, like pull your group, poll your team, poll your family and say, give me qualities that describe my voice. Because when I'm gonna look at specs of a breakdown for an audition, the client's gonna break it down for you. they're gonna give you vocal qualities. So that's one of the big ones I feel that really distinguishes your vocal branding from someone else's and says, oh, I know that. That's Deb. That's Susan. Anne: Oh, I know that voice. Lau: Yeah, I know that voice. Anne: And you know what's so interesting to me is I find that there's a lot of people who come to me who will try to perform and sound like they think everybody wants them to sound like, and not enough about sounding like themselves. Because I truly believe, and I say this all the time, I truly believe that we are human. We wanna connect. We want to understand who you are. And that comes through, that shines through in your voice, that very unique voice. So unless you're doing a soundalike for someone, or even a character where you're trying to sound a particular way, I think that your vocal brand needs to be brought right up there, front and center, because I think that's what truly makes you unique. And it brings the acting out. So it's not about the sound, right? It's about how do I bring the acting out? And that becomes a vocal brand for you because the personality is intermixed. I think personality has a lot to do with creating a unique vocal sound. Right? Your personality, your, your heart, your essence. I don't know, Lau, you always have great words for this. What would you say your ethos, I dunno, the ethos of your vocal branding? Lau: The ethos of your vocal branding. Anne: Yeah. Lau: It's like the height. Like what is the apex of what someone is thinking about when they think about you? It's like they think about you with this word, with this adjective, with this action verb. Your name comes up. That's like, to me, that's the zenith of it all, is like, when they think of this, Anne Ganguzza comes up. When they think of that, this one comes up. And that to me is amazing. And in no way should that feel limiting to people. Like, oh, does that mean that's all I can do? Or that's all they think of me as. Well, they think of you as, as a product, as an incredible product that has this vocal branding. And that's the first and foremost that you want them to think about. You don't want them to be confused. You never want your audience to be confused. You always want them to think of you for doing the best thing. And with your vocal quality as a vocal talent, they wanna know you as something, whatever that something is. Anne: And then whatever that something is, learn how to define that also in words because that words can translate to words on a page or words in an email that you are submitting with a demo to an agent, something that sets you apart. And it can also be different unique aspects of your voice. Like let's say an accent, right? A tone, if you have that really beautiful bass, baritone or that bright mom sound or whatever that might be. Bilingual, right? Can you sing? Like, those are all vocal qualities that can really help distinguish you from the competition. And so know what those vocal qualities are and be ready to be able to explain them to a potential client. Also showcase them. I think it's so important that these vocal brandings are basically shown or in a demo, right? So that people can hear that vocal quality. And if you have a good producer, they're going to know that and they're gonna know how to bring those vocal qualities out. Lau: And you know, it's having a visual now of like a performer, a theater actor, a professional speaker who's in front of a crowd live, they're in front of a crowd. What's the first and foremost thing we see visually is their visual branding. So that might be a costume or wardrobe or particular visuals that we're getting on camera or on a stage. Right? Well, that's a big part of the kinds of roles they play, but that's not everything. We have to know what's underneath it. We have to know what's the internal process that they're using to bring out their personality, their persona, their humanity, the thing that we connect to. But that covering, so to speak, that like coming in and saying, I can sound like this. I can put this on, is great to have, it's just not the whole job. It's not the whole thing. You have to be able to do the internal work to really have the authentic connections to the process and then put the wardrobe on it, and then put the schmaltz as we say on it, the frosting on it. Right? But you have to have the cake first. You can't just have the frosting, even though we'd like to, you gotta build a cake first. Anne: I'm always astounded when I work with different voices. Now, there are some voices who tonally, right, will have varying degrees of range tonally. But sometimes I think when students are just beginning, they think that that's what range is all about. And I beg to differ because range is not just a tone or I have a high pitch, I have a low pitch. I think really range for an artist an artist really comprises the tone mixed with the personality, mixed with the performance, mixed with the acting. And so whenever people say, I want range in my demo, right, I will actually focus more on the acting first, rather than, oh, can you pitch your voice up? Can you pitch your voice down? It's so hard for people to do that because then they get so consumed with, I'm going to sound very low, or maybe I'm just gonna sound very high and I'll just do this for the rest of the copy. And so Lau, I know you've had lots of experience working with students do that. Lau: Oh, oh my goodness, ton. And it's that what I call the over management, the maneuvering, every M word you can think of, the manipulation of sound, which of course, technically if you're a singer, if you're a rapper, if you're a speaker, if you're a vocalist of any kind, we do have to learn mechanics. We have to have a vocabulary that we can rely upon that helps with repeatability so that we can repeat deliveries for sure. But that still does not do that internalized work of understanding the language, the syntax, the cadence, the rhythm, all of that, which I believe is -- Anne: The story. Lau: Yes. The story. Anne: The story. Lau: And whether you are religious or not, religious is irrelevant. There's a spirituality, there's something that we can't quite put our finger on that is larger than us. It's bigger than us that we can connect to, which creates a universal internal connection to your audience that they can't put their finger on either. It's just, it's real, it's authentic. Our friend Jim from Lotas talks about that all the time, authenticity. What is authenticity? What is that honest connectedness that we have? I'd like to think it's partly psychological, but it's also partly from the heart and the soul and the gut. Anne: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Lau: Right? Anne: And that's where people, if they're nervous about synthetic voices, this is where we've got them . Lau: Yeah. Yeah. Anne: If you can really stand true to your authenticity and bring that out in your acting and in your voice, then that is what is going to surpass any synthetic voice out there. And know that your connection and your vocal brand has very much a place in voiceover now and for the future, absolutely. And I say this after, gosh, close to 40 episodes, talking to people in synthetic voices, knowing that there is a place for that. But there's very much a place for our unique vocal brand and our unique, authentic brand, authentic voice. Lau: Absolutely. Anne: Yeah. Lau: And it's hard, if not impossible, to decipher exactly what it is. It's like when we see a brilliant performance, we hear a brilliant dissertation, we hear something rhetorical that moves us -- it's hard to completely put into words why we are moved to a call to action. Why we are changed, why we are cathartically shifted in a way. It's that beautiful recipe and combination of the visuals, the vocals, the internals, the connectedness to the audience that create that concoction that is so unique, that becomes persona. I mean, that's persona personified , as they say. It's, it's, that's your brand. Like your brand is how do I move you? How do I shift you? Anne: Yeah. And I think it's one of the hardest things for people first entering into the industry to really accept and recognize. I know, I can't tell you the amount of people who don't really like the sound of their voice. They're true voice-- Lau: But yet they wanna make a living at it . Anne: And they wanna make a living at it. And yet they're in voiceover and they wanna pursue voiceover because they think what everybody wants to buy is this performed sound that they have heard. I think we're such a product of our experience in listening for years. Right? When voiceover first came onto the scene, it was very much an announcer style. It was very much a, a unique style. And so hearing that, depending on your age, really, this does depend on your age. Kim Herdon actually in one of my workshops mentioned it too. And I thought, yeah, when you are being directed, a lot of times it is a factor how old the person is that is directing you. Because what they hear in their ears as a conversational or authentic read might differ from let's say, somebody that is a millennial that might be directing you. And so I think no matter who's directing you, if you can bring forth the authenticity and your own unique style, I think that that is the place to absolutely start. And if you can bring that out, I feel like that's, you're at the height of your acting. It's kind of like, how many times have we watched a B movie? And it's so obvious, right, that the actors are maybe not as sincere or maybe they're not connecting with the audience. And so for those of you that are trying to figure out what your sound is, stop because it's not a sound. It's not a sound. Lau: No, no, it's not. It's the land, what I call the land like how it lands on someone. How is it received? How is it thought of that's the most important? And the second is like great acting like Meisner exercises, like the second I'm thinking about myself -- which is natural. A lot of us will lose focus at times, think about ourself. But that's a really good gauge for us as business owners, as BOSSes, as delivery folks doing vocal delivery. The second I'm thinking about myself is the second I've lost contact with the other, the other. Anne: Absolutely. Lau: Whoever that is. It just be an admin. It could be an executive assistant, it could be whatever. But if I lose that level of focus, not only did I lose the information of what they're giving to me, but I also lost the authentic response of how what I'm saying and doing is landing on them. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Lau: And then I don't have authentic queuing anymore. I lost my queuing ability. Anne: Yeah. And I think even when we're talking about niches -- again, I always talk about people starting out here and you're trying to figure out where you belong in the industry. Like, where do I fit? I think no matter what niche you're pursuing, commercial, corporate, explainer, promo, there is absolutely in every niche, there is a unique you in that. Even if, let's say promos, right? And they sound announcery. right? And oh, great, I get to be an announcer. Sure. But you've still got a whole lot of personality that's put into that announcer, and you're bringing a whole lot of you to that. Like, I'm just, makes me think of Joe Cipriano, like I could pick out his voice in a second because he brings his personality to it. It really is something that you have to be comfortable with. And I think that's a journey for a lot of students to become self-accepting and to allow -- and vulnerability, right -- that to come out in a performance. Lau: Absolutely. And I think you have to be okay, okay, sometimes more than okay with whatever you're saying and doing, when it does land, and it's being accepted and it's being rewarded, being okay with that being enough. In other words, if I get into that mindset, yeah. But I, they haven't seen me do this and I don't love that as much as I love this da da -- take that out of the situation and say, look, they're seeing one potential within me of value. And they're loving that and they're valuing that. Let that be okay. Let that be enough. Go other places to show other sides of your voice and other sides of what you can do. But if that's okay, if that's what a big part of your branding is, because sometimes it's enough; people don't wanna know you as everything. They don't want -- I'm sure we've all had that experience where we see a movie star that we know and love, and we are tracking them, and all of a sudden they're doing a role that they love. That's challenging to them. but we don't wanna see 'em in that role. It's like, it's almost uncomfortable to see them in that role because we don't know them as that. It doesn't seem authentic to us. It seems pushed or it seems weird to us. Does that mean they're not capable of doing the role? ? No, of course not. It just means we've compartmentalized in our brain their branding to us. Anne: Sure, sure. Lau: And that means something to us. I think that branding, for some weird reason can have a negative connotation like it's simplistic or superficial when it's not. It has a real lifestyle meaning to people of how they place you Sure. And compartmentalize you within their life, in their lifestyle. Anne: I wanted to kind of tap into what you're talking about in terms of is there just one brand? Do you just have one brand and maybe not, maybe you can have mult -- I mean, I have multiple brands actually. And so each one of those brands though has a piece of me, has a piece of authentic me in that. And again, I think that that's one of the most important things that we want to emphasize here. And that vocal brand should be something that people can remember you by and then easily come back. And that's the whole thing, right? Because we're talking about the physical properties of your voice and the physicalities of how we sound and what we can offer as a unique value proposition to our potential clients. Now, how are we going to market that? In my corporate narration world, I have a particular demo that really has my sound, my unique value pro -- I call it my unique value proposition for corporate. And I may sound different when I am doing e-learning, and in reality I am because I'm a different person, right? I am teaching when I'm an e-learning versus corporate, I'm selling, or even commercial, I'm a little bit selling. I'm trying to convince people. So because the context is different, you get a different part of me. And that part of me is still very much me, but it is also a different brand. So I think that for each of your vocal brands, you need to have demonstrations, demos that really showcase yourself in those particular niche markets. Lau: Right. You have to have that. That's a necessity. And from my experience, Anne, in my business, people come in, potential clients come in, prospects for a particular specific branding. Once they work with you in that, they start trusting you that yeah, you do that, you do it well. They're getting their value, they're getting what they need. They will open up to cross branding, which I call cross pollination, which means -- Anne: I love that, cross branding. Lau: I offer, you offer three, four, five, six different services, whatever. Anne: Hey, could you do this? Lau: Yes. But they're not unrelated. Like, I'm not gonna clean your curtains, and I'm not gonna babysit your kids. Right? So they're not unrelated, they're all within this sphere. But they're much more open, and rightly so as I would be too, moving into those services once they are educated to understand what they need and what they want, versus coming in off the street for those services because they already came in for a particular brand. Anne: Sure. And once they do that, I think it's important that you remain consistent in that brand. Lau: Yes. Anne: I think branding is just all about consistency, right? I mean, we've spoken about branding before. I mean, obviously look, I've got my headphones, I've got my glasses, I've got the whole red thing for VO BOSS. Visually there's a brand, but also there is that vocal consistency that comes to the show that you and I, we're giving of ourselves. We have our authentic selves. And that is a very important part of the VO BOSS brand. People don't listen to the podcast to look at my headphones. It's about my delivery, our conversation, our heart, our authenticity between the two of us. And that is, again, something that works in conjunction with marketing, maybe a visual. Right? And that has to be consistent for people, to make it memorable for people. Lau: Yes. I would say it has to be consistent, but not necessarily constant. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Like we oftentimes think, oh, I have to be online all the time. I have to be posting on social all the time. I have to -- well, to some degree, yes. But do you need to be constantly doing that? Probably not. But you do have to be consistent in what you're doing so that it's gonna cause the attention that you want. Anne: I'm glad that you said that, because there's absolutely a thing of being too much into, right? Lau: Yeah. Anne: I actually, myself, even when we're talking about marketing and advertising, and I offer workshops, obviously the VO BOSS podcast -- how much am I going to be marketing that brand? And so you don't want it to be so much -- Lau: You're overdoing it. Anne: -- that it becomes an annoyance. Lau: Right. Anne: But what's so interesting is -- I listen to Gary Vaynerchuk. I don't know if you do, but Gary is everywhere on social media. And his philosophy is that not everybody's on social media all the time. So therefore, the fact that he pushes it out so consistently and so constantly and everywhere means that at any given moment, somebody's going to be able to know his brand and understand who he is. I think you just need to be consistent in that, but not pushing on any one particular. Right? I think that can be something that's tiresome. It's like performance. Right? Anything that repeats really becomes like white noise and people will not pay attention to it anymore. Lau: Yeah. Yeah. Anne: So whatever it is that you are giving vocally in your brand or marketing in your brand, give it authentically, and make sure it's not the same thing every single time. Because then it will become an annoyance. Lau: Yes. And I would say too, like check your ego at the door. Check it at the door. Because none of us are so big and brash and bold that we can't be learning every moment how to make our branding better, make our value better. Here's a quick example. I do my news blast that I send out, and I'm listening to my people. Am I doing it too much? Am I doing it not enough? Da da da da. I just had someone email me, someone who I've known for a while, and he said, listen, Lau, if you don't mind my saying, he emailed me -- if you don't mind saying there's too much animation in this, things are moving, I'm nauseous. I can't read what you wrote. Anne: I'm nauseous from your email. Lau: Right? Like, welcome to the inside of my head. I'm thinking, you know what I'm saying? That's like the inside of my head. And I had to stop and I had to say, right, right. I didn't catch it. I didn't think about it. Da da. By Monday I'm gonna fix it. So that doesn't mean that you're always gonna agree with everything that everyone says. You're not. But if you see it's sound advice, no pun intended, sound advice, you see, it makes sense. And you see it's making someone's world harder to get to know you and get the value -- Anne: Yeah. Lau: Take out the firewalls. Anne: Take out the homework. I always say, don't give -- Lau: Get rid of it. Anne: -- people homework. Yeah. Lau: Yeah. Don't be egotistical and say, well why? How could he say that to me? He doesn't like my pet -- I don't care about that. I care about him getting value from what I'm sending out. Anne: Absolutely. Lau: And if he cared enough to say that to me, I'm gonna care enough to take it under consideration. Anne: Sure. Absolutely. Lau: And in this case, case taking action on it. Anne: Absolutely. I think that that's so important. And I also think it's important to not just be consistent, but also keep the market trends in your back pocket. Research them, understand what they are, and update accordingly. Really vocal trends change over the years, in a grand scheme sort of way. It's gone from announcery to authentic and conversational, mostly. And a lot of that, by the way, is driven by advertising. Right? What sells, right? Again, we don't like being told we're smart consumers. We don't like being told what to do. We like to be able to make our own decisions, and we often ask our peers. And so that I think is the biggest reason why advertising and the vocal trends changed to a more natural talking like your friend, like, hey, I'd use this product because we don't wanna be told by some loudmouth announcer that we need to buy this product. I mean, we're offended by that. And again, it becomes how can you and this vocal brand service your potential client or your client? It's not about what you sound like. It's not about distributing the vocal noise out there. It's about distributing something that can connect with a listener and move them, inspire them, motivate them. Lau: Inspire them. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Yes. And I would even add in technical, technique-wise over time, add a little hook for yourself in there. Something you may not always do, but you find you're doing consistently that works -- it might be a little glitch in the voice, it might be be a moment of pre-life. it might be a pick up swing on something you do. Anne: Sure. Lau: Add something that's yours, that's part of your signature, whatever that is. And just do it consistently. If it works, if it annoys people, they'll let you know. If it doesn't work over time, you'll know. Anne: Right. Lau: But do something that's unique to you, authentic to your persona, authentic to your process. And that's something that people will start thinking of you for as well. So many people don't even think, Anne, when they're doing an audition, they want it to be so clean that they don't even think a little, -- is good. Just like a little exclamation, a little moment of vocalization. You know what I mean? Anne: It's too perfect. It's too voice talent. It's too voice actors, too perfect. Yeah. Lau: It's too edity. Anne: I can't tell you the amount of times I would have a student, a lot of times this will happen with a male student who has a beautiful, like lower baritone, and at the end of their sentences they'll land it. And I'm like, you need to only give me that gift once in a while, and when I don't expect it. Because if you give me that gift every single word or every single sentence, it's gonna not be a gift anymore. And so you need to give that to me in an unexpected way that's going to capture my attention and not become the same repetitive. That's really what happens when people try to sound or mimic or imitate, unless of course you're doing an impression. But that's a different thing too. Like a lot of times people will be confused when I say that, but when you're a character, I find sometimes when people like character and they're character actors, they are able to bring authenticity to their characters more than they can bring to their own voice. Lau: Yeah. No doubt about that. And sometimes their alter ego, if they consider it an alter ego, they're doing it all the time. They do it like a tic, it's great, they love it, whatever. Sometimes it can have more authentic appeal than their daily sound can, because their heart and soul is in it. They're so connected to the success of it. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that's the thing, their heart and soul is connected to it. And so I'm always trying to convince people that like, you may not be a cartoon or a very dynamically changing character, but for everything that you do in voiceover, you are. You are a character. It's a version of you. It's an excited you, it's a passionate you, it's a somewhat confused you or whatever is called for in the copy. Right? It becomes that -- or I always say, you own the company. Right? If you're trying to talk about your product and sell for a company, then you own that company. So you're always a character. Lau: It's like the argument we have in the acting world for actors who are not vocal actors, they're actors who are, you know, on camera or stage actors. They're saying, am I becoming someone else? Or am I opening the door within myself to other experiences that connect to my real history? Now I'd like to think it's the latter because I think that most people who are in this field, who are successful, can bring that connection, whether they do it through a sense memory, whether they do it through an extreme empathy exercises, they don't have to have experienced it. They have to connect to the experience. And that's a totally different thing. And ironically, a lot of folks who go through the actual experience can't emotionally connect the way you can as a vocal actor. Anne: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Lau: Right? But you have to have that conduit, whatever that conduit is, to the authentic connection, you have to have it and find it. Anne: That is what I think so many people, they just, they're coming in to do their auditions, they run into their studio and they're good readers, right? And they read it and then they apply a melody to it that makes it sound like they're in a scene, but they're not really in a scene or acting, reacting, that kind of thing. And so I think for every piece of copy, you've gotta be so in the scene that you're not even thinking about what you sound like. Lau: Yeah. And then it becomes mono patterned. Anne: Exactly. Lau: And we're thinking, why am I feeling sing songy? Why am I feeling in the pattern of this? Anne: Exactly. Exactly. Lau: Yeah. Right. Anne: So vocal branding, it is absolutely a thing. It is absolutely something that I think all BOSSes out there, you need to know. Understand your vocal brand, understand who you are within that vocal brand, and then be able to market that vocal brand. So make sure that it's defined, and it can evolve, by the way. It doesn't have to always be one way. You can evolve that, evolve multiple brands. Make sure that you are able to bring that front and center proudly. And that will help to, I think, get you those gigs. Good discussion. Lau: And dirty it up. Like, don't be so perfect. Anne: Don't be perfect. Lau: You don't need to be so polished and perfect. Because emulating real life is like we do make mistakes, and we do have rough starts. And sometimes that will get you a job. Love it. Great discussion. Anne: Ah, yeah. Lau: So good. Anne: All right. So BOSSes, it may seem difficult to make a huge impact, but as a group, we can contribute to the growth of our communities in ways that we never thought possible. You can find out more. Visit 100voiceswhocare.org to learn how. And also great, big shout-out to my sponsor, ipDTL. You too, connect and be BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. Have an amazing week, guys. We'll see you next week. Lau: Bye. Anne: Bye. Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

The advertising landscape is changing. People want to connect with real people, not just faceless brands. Anne & Lau share their tips for putting yourself out there visually. What matters is that you are enhancing your natural essence, not turning into some inauthentic version of you. Share yourself on social media & your website. When clients see who you are, they feel like they really know you. It also makes them more likely to remember you and recommend you to others. If all else fails, present yourself in any way that makes you feel comfortable & shows those around you that you care about what you're doing. Transcript It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone, welcome to the VO BOSS Podcast and the Business superpower series. I'm here, Anne Ganguzza, with my bestie, favorite special guest, co-host Lau Lapides. Hey Lau. Lau: Hey, Anne. Anne: You know, Lau, since I started with you, I made that decision to have all of our podcasts also be on video. And I have to do my hair, I gotta do my makeup . And I found myself increasingly out there on camera and in front of people. And remember back in the day, when you made that decision -- or maybe you didn't, but I did. It was always like, well, I don't wanna have to be in front of a camera. I just wanna be an actor behind a mic and nobody needs to see my face. Well, I think that's changed. Lau: Mm-Hmm. Anne: And I think it would be a good thing to talk about is it necessary for us to have a visual image as well as our voice? Lau: And I remember actually, like it was yesterday, I remember the day where it was fairly detrimental to be seen because you would be pigeonholed. You'd be stereotyped. Like let's say I, I'm able to do a 10-year-old boy's voice for animation. Then all of a sudden you see me, and I look completely different than that. And now it's stuck in a producer's mind. That was the mindset back then of like, keep yourself hidden enough so that you're branding could go all over the map. And now it's like completely changed in so many ways. Anne: Has it? See, 'cause that's the question I get these days, especially from character actors, or let's say actors that don't look like they sound. And so they're concerned about being pigeonholed if they show their face. But I am like, these days, especially with video being right up in the forefront right up and everybody's faces, it's so popular. And especially after coming out of the pandemic where people weren't in contact anymore, I do believe that people wanna connect with people. It's a human need to connect with people, to connect with faces. And I, for one, I cannot stand it when I cannot, let's say, call up a business to ask a question to get a real person on the phone. And I know this is weird. Where are my millennials? I'm sorry. My millennials are like, but I can text. Anne: But even so, I like to call to make sure I can hear a voice on the other end. Or I like to meet on Zoom, a lot of times with new clients, kind of I validate them to make sure they're human. For me, it's a thing. I need to connect with humans. And I am always telling my business students that people wanna connect with a person and not necessarily a logo. Lau: Yes. Yes. And here's pure irony. You and I come from a generation where we need to do that. Like I, I remember the days where when I needed to get a phone number, I'd call something called Information. Information was 411. And then I'd hear someone, usually the same woman, and she'd be like, hello, Information, how may I help you? And I loved talking to people. I still, I don't trust online booking for hotels. I don't trust online booking for air fare. I, I still have that in me to wanna talk to people, wanna make that connection, wanna have that trust. But here's the irony. In voiceover of those days, that's where we had a lot of announcer reads. That's where we had a lot of caricature style reads, especially in the commercial market. Today, today, no one wants to talk to each other. You'll always get a machine, you'll always be online filling out those fields online, right? You'll never be able to get customer service. But stylistically we want naturalism. We want to have naturalism. Anne: We want authenticity. Mm-hmm. Authenticity, that's the biggest trend. Isn't that funny? And especially from the younger generation, right? They want that authenticity. So I believe that a visual image, an in-person or an on-camera or a, that kind of a thing really helps to bring the authenticity to the business. Lau: It does. Like I wanna see you. I wanna see that you're a real person. You're not a bot, you're not an avatar. You're not a cartoon drawing. That's okay. Like I love seeing those, but that doesn't take the place of the person. I still wanna see the person. If I'm gonna work with you, hire you, cast you, whatever, I still wanna see that you're a person and get a sense of that. Anne: And you know what's so interesting? It's gotten to the point where I am putting myself out there so much visually that I have a brand ,and you know what my brand consists of? Headphones, that might be red or blue or purple. Or I just got a really beautiful pair of navy blue, and I got a pair of blue glasses, . And I just ordered, do you know what I just ordered? A pair of red glasses. And I also ordered a wind sock that is red . Uh, so maybe when I'm gonna be in the BOSS booth recording an episode, I might have a red headphone with red lipstick with red glasses, with a red -- but it becomes a visual part of my brand and it becomes something that people recognize for me. And it becomes consistent. I believe that consistency brands recognition and brands, something being more memorable. And I think that in addition to your voice being memorable, connecting that with a human, authentic being on the other side and also adding some visual branding can really help to make you a memorable brand. Lau: Yes. And anyone who has been an actor either on tv, done film, done theater, knows the power of wardrobe, the power of makeup, the power of a mask. You know, we'll call it a mask right now because it could be be for men as well, or whatever you identify as. You have something that you may utilize to initiate your branding visually, whatever that is. It could be a hat, it could be, as you said, glasses, lipstick, it could be even a pen that you use, even a prop that you use. You know what I mean? Anne: Nails. Lau: Yeah. Nails. Right. So that it sort of gives you a little bit of superpower. It gives you a little bit of dynamic to fall into that role, whatever that role is for you, that if you don't do it, and you don't have it, it's a tougher way to reach the role that you're trying to play. Anne: And that includes websites too, because that's one of the biggest questions I get is, do I put my photo on my website? Because that has always been the biggest bone of contention, right? Because I'm a voice actor, they don't need to see my face, but again, online people, before they even know you, you want to make yourself as memorable as possible. Yes, it's wonderful to think that my voice alone could do it, but why not your voice combined with your authentic headshot? And I'm gonna say, even if you don't sound how you look, I can say there's value in having, on your about page, a photo of yourself. I don't think that that is going to misrepresent you at all. And especially if we're talking about authenticity, right? Who is it behind the voice? I think that that really warrants a lot to showcase a photo of yourself. Now, for me, I've always been about visual branding, and so on my website, I've always had a photo of myself, my voiceover website. And I feel as though it doesn't hurt me at all. I think it probably helps me. I think that I probably look like I sound. I don't know, Lau, what do you think? Do I? Lau: Yes. I think your visual branding matches everything else that you're doing. Not always the case with voiceover talent, but that's okay. For you, I think it's perfect. Perfect. Your visual matches your vocal. It's wonderful. Anne: So then again, let's talk more in depth about if your visual doesn't match your vocal. Can it hurt you if you put your photo on your website or -- I mean, I feel like you're gonna have to interact with your clients at some point. Lau: Well, that's it. Anne: In some way. Right? Lau: That's it. I think he, you can't avoid the unavoidable and you know, you may not always meet everyone in person, but you are going to be -- now that we're in post COVID, we're having many more in-person events come back. Anne: Or video meetings. Lau: Or Zoom. Yes. Mm-hmm. Video meetings. And do you always wanna have your video off? Do you always wanna look a little bit MIA, like you're not fully present? No. You wanna have the ability to have confidence and say, I like the way I look. I'm proud of the way I look. It's part of who I am as a business person. And if they misconstrued my sound with the way I look, you know, hey, what can I do about it? That's called living in the world. I would rather see someone than not for sure. Anne: Exactly. Yeah. As a client, absolutely. I would much rather deal with someone that I can see visually. Now have I seen all of my clients visually? No. No. But I have usually contacted them via email or at one time or another, my repeat clients, right, I've seen them. I've been in a video meeting with them to discuss a project or I've contacted them for some reason one way or they've live directed me. Some people can put the camera off during one of those sessions. But I like to have it on just to say hi. Just to let people know, hi, I'm a real person. And now during my performance, I don't necessarily have to have it on me as long as I've introduced myself as a part of my business with my visual face. Now let's talk about, is there any sort of code of how should I look? Remember a long time ago there used to be restrictions, I know, for in the workplace about hair, right? And about beards and about that sort of a thing where it wasn't considered corporate to have a beard or long hair or something like that. So what are your thoughts about today and, and for a voice talent, is there a code of anything really? Lau: I think it's the best time, Anne, to be able to show your face because the playing field is so open now with what's acceptable, what's welcome. Everything's diversity. Everything is age, everything is background, everything is, you know -- when you go into, like even in Manhattan, when I go into some of the more corporatey kind of firms, they're very business casual. The younger generation is much more casual -- Anne: I love that. Lau: -- than they were years ago. I love it too. So I think a lot more is acceptable. But that being said, I don't think it gives people a free pass of saying, oh, I'll just look like whatever. I'll just stick on whatever. I'll just do whatever. I would take the time to work with a coach, your coach, whoever is great with styling, great with image, great with fashion, great with branding, and say, listen, this is who I am. This is what I do. I don't wanna go too far away from my authentic, neutral self, but I wanna look really great for who I am. I wanna look put together, I wanna be fresh, I wanna have great colors, great fits. Anne: Or you wanna look like you care. Lau: Yeah. Yeah. Anne: Look, there's a lot of casual people in California. I get that. I've lived here for enough years to know. But coming from the east coast to the west coast is, in terms of clothing and ideals about looks and how you would dress for a corporate job, it's actually quite a bit different. But the cool thing is like, I wear black, I wear leather. Everything I wore on the east coast, I wear on the West Coast. And I haven't changed because I've changed where I've lived. And the cool thing is, is that it allows me to be me. I mean California, for all their casualness, you don't have to put on fancy clothes. But I think also you don't wanna look like that you don't care about your appearance. Lau: Exactly. Anne: And so I think that no matter what you have, like, and I remember, gosh, I remember tattoos weren't a thing either. This is my corporate background coming in. Tattoos weren't a thing, nose piercings that -- I've always wanted to get a nose piercing, by the way. This is, this is is Anne's admission. And I think I'm going to get one. Lau: The truth comes out. Anne: At this age, I am going to get one, a very small delicate, 'cause I'm a, I'm a bling girl. Right? And I feel like a small bling right here would look awesome. Lau: Do it, do it. Anne: But, so now people are gonna hold me to it. So maybe at one point, everybody, BOSSes out there, you'll see me with a little bit of a nose, a nose pierce. Lau: A little diamond bling right there. Anne: Little diamond bling. 'Cause it's -- Lau: I love it. Anne: I like the bling. Lau: I love it. Anne: But yeah, I do think that as long as you're showing your authentic you and it's something that your authentic you is something you care about, I think that presents -- because again, it's personal, but don't forget that our personal brand is a business brand. And so we're representing ourselves to people who might want to hire us or maybe not hire us based upon our looks. Is that a thing? True. I mean, I think if we're gonna be brave and show our face and show who we are, we have to also accept the fact that maybe people won't hire us based upon our looks. Lau, thoughts? Lau: Yeah. If you're meeting people too, which you and I are meeting people all the time, whether we're on Zoom or we're in person, we're meeting people, you know, how do we come across? How do we look them in the eye? Do we smile, all this stuff? So I don't want it to seem like you have to put on armor to meet people. But you wanna enhance your natural beauty, your natural essence, your natural energy. It's sort of like the rule of thumb for a really great actor headshot is I don't want it to be glamorous. I don't want it to be overdone. I want it to be super natural and look like you on a really great day. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Lau: So that's sort of the rule of thumb. And ask yourself this question, look at all the businesses out there that now have the owners or the people working in the business show their visual faces. Real estate agents, they all have their faces on cards, right. We have a lot of branding in advertising for everything from furniture to cars to on and on it goes of people who own the dealership, people who run the furniture stores, and, and you're thinking, well why? Why are they on there? Why don't they have, you know, beautiful looking talent on there that are gorgeous? No. Because people wanna see real people. They wanna see who they're creating relationship with to buy these products, but they just wanna make sure that they look good on a good day. They don't wanna roll outta bed. You know? Anne: Do you remember Don LaFontaine for many years? We heard his voice, heard his voice, heard his voice, and then he started doing the commercials where he, he was in person? I love that. And also because you're on the east coast, oh Lau, please let me know if you -- Men's Warehouse, do you remember his voice? Oh my gosh, for years -- Lau: Oh yes! Anne: The guy who owned Men's Warehouse had the most beautiful voice and I thought, wow, he should be doing more voiceover instead of his commercials. And then they showed him on the commercial. And so he brought his visual brand, and I loved it. I absolutely loved finding out who the person was behind the voice. And -- Lau: And now they all do it. Now they all do it. And sometimes you're looking and you're going, I'd rather they stayed behind the camera. . Like, you know, they have these deep, you know, Boston accents, you know, come on in and buy a sofah. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Lau: You know, what I mean? But the point is, that's what the largest demographic in the commercial market really wants. They want approachable, natural, authentic, real authentic. Anne: And you know, just like, okay, so just like being an announcer has gone off trend, right? And whenever we get behind that mic, we feel like we have to put on that voice. Here is my voiceover voice. Hello, I'm Anne and this is my voiceover voice. Like that's a put on kind of a -- like people want more authentic. Now character, we're talking something completely different, right? Because you become that character, but you're becoming an authentic character, right? So just as, we don't necessarily like inauthentic sounding or inauthentic in social media where everything's always perfect, we like the authentic person, and that visual brand helps to bring out that authenticity. And I think that is something that can truly help elevate your business as scared as you are. And for all of the people out there who have gotten into voiceover, because, well I got into voiceover so they didn't have to see my face. Well, I think it's time guys for you to appear and show up to your businesses and show up because we wanna connect with you. And I'm always talking in terms of performance, when I'm trying to get that conversational read, even for narration, right? I'm trying to get that engagement. It's that back and forth. That visual can help you. I'm always talking about, I want that authenticity, I want that engagement. Your visual brand can help you. And that visual brand is in person, when you meet people, your website, it can be a great indicator for your visual brand as well. Even if it's just a picture of you on the about page. I think that it's something that can bring a lot of value, a lot of value. Lau: I agree. And I think you feel differently. You internalize your external. So you know, it's a fine line. Like we're not all about what we look like. We're not all about what externally comes out. But there is a deep connection between what I'm internally emotionalizing and feeling and what I'm externally giving out to the world. And so I think we can learn a lot from actors who are going for visual roles that they don't dress in costume, and they shouldn't dress in costume for an audition, but they should give a flavor, give a hint of the character in how they're gonna present themselves when they walk in the room. Anne: And it's always bringing themselves to the character. Right? That really is the winning -- Lau: Yeah, you're gonna do -- Anne: It's the winning. Right? Your twist. Your unique, authentic twist to the story no matter what. Whether you're performing behind the mic, performing in front of the camera, your online storefront, whatever that is, it's helping you to bring that organic, authentic part of you to the role. And even yeah, as you say, character acting. Lau: If you're gonna do a narration, a corporate narration gig, don't come in wearing your old t-shirt and shorts and flip flops because there's gonna be a little bit of a psychological jump for you to do to that particular job. Come in, you know, come into your booth in your home. Anne: You're coming into it as an employee, right? In reality, if they've hired you to be the voice of their brand, you are now an employee of that company. So now, dress visually and I think emote as if you were a part of their brand, which you are. If they've hired you and they're going to pay you, you are now an employee, quote unquote, of that company. So. Lau: Yeah, there's a culture. So there's always this culture to every gig, every client, every happening that shifts and changes. It really doesn't and shouldn't stay the same. To have the mindset of like, well they'll just accept me the way I am -- okay. Sometimes they do. But sometimes they don't. Sometimes they want to have a visual mirror as to who they are, how they're coming in, how they feel about the work. Same with your clients that are your coaching clients or demo clients. Anne: Sure. Lau: They wanna feel comfortable that you understand where they're coming from. And sometimes that's visual cues. Anne: It's very interesting because I coach without visual, I do not coach through Zoom. I coach through ipDTL. Yay, love ip -- why do I coach through ipDTL? Because it's a high quality audio connection, and I need to hear those nuances, especially when I'm doing long format coaching for narration, medical, nuance is everything -- actually nuance is everything for every part of voiceover I think. But that's me. And so I need to be able to hear really well. I need to be able to hear that coming through. And it's interesting 'cause I'll coach a student 10, 20 sessions, and then I'll talk to them over Zoom when I reveal their demo. I always do a Zoom reveal so I can finally meet them. And most of the time I'm not necessarily surprised at how they look 'cause they have a presence on social media or they look like they sound. But sometimes I am completely surprised and pleasantly so. I've never been unpleasantly surprised. But absolutely when I've seen someone, I'm like, wow, I had no idea. And so I think a lot of times when I'm coaching for voiceover, right, that is primary is voiceover is your voice and hearing the nuances in your voice. But I always wanna hear your authentic self come through in the voice. But always, especially when you're representing a company, you are the employee of that company. But I need your unique, authentic self to come through. And a lot of times that authentic self is your personality. Right? A lot of times your voiceover, I think, is made better by your personality, your unique personality that you bring to it. Because I'm here to help you, I'm here to serve you, I'm here to tell you about this great product that you're -- it's always positive. I don't think we're ever, unless we're doing character work, right? I don't think we're ever emoting things that are negative. Right? Typically we're not hired for negative sounding voiceovers or angry voiceovers, again, unless we're a character. It's mostly a positive, comes from the heart, from a helpful situation. What are your thoughts on that, Lau? Lau: Oh, I agree. I agree. And I, I mean when you consider how many people out there that are visual learners, they literally take in information, process information and create quick output based on what they're taking in visually. Like I have to give them something to work with if I have the ability to. If they don't see me, they see nothing visual that I do, well, okay. But oftentimes they will, they'll go to my website. They'll go to your social, they'll go to something that has you on it, whatever that is, . And they'll say quickly, do I feel comfortable with this person? Happens in like two seconds. Anne: Excellent point. And I'm glad you brought that up because whether people decide to put their picture on their website, which is the biggest question I get, or not, right, there's social media somewhere, somewhere out there, there's going to be a photo of you that someone might discover. And maybe that's not the photo that you want them to discover first. Maybe it could be a photo from years ago when you weren't in voiceover or maybe you're being crazy and you know, having fun at a party. Maybe that's not the first photo that you want your potential client to see. So I figure if you're going to put out a photo, put out that photo that is authentic you now and not you maybe 20 years ago when you weren't doing voiceover. And that's what a lot of my argument is. They're like, yeah, but I, you know, they're not hiring me for my face. And I'm like, true. But they wanna connect with a human being. And by the way, if they really wanted to, they probably could find a picture of you somewhere out there on the internet. Lau: Yeah. And you know, it's really interesting too. Like it's, this is on topic, off topic. It's like when we were at the conference out in LA, you and I were at that conference out in LA, which we had a fab time, and I pay attention 'cause I listen, listen, listen for cues -- this is all face-to-face in person -- when I'm going through the steps of speaking at that conference, I'm listening to comments to me and comments about me, about who I am and about my brand. And a number of times I heard sometimes from men, sometimes from women, like, oh, I'm standing next to this beautiful woman right here. Or oh, this pretty lady, whatever. Or isn't she just sweet whatever, making initial comment on my visual in the way I look. And I take it all in because I say, well, that's what they're getting in the first 5, 10, 15 seconds of not really knowing me, just kind of knowing my brand or knowing my name, whatever, I'll take it. I'm not offended by any of it because I feel like people wanna find the quick way to make themselves feel comfortable with you. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Whatever it is. Maybe I look like their mom, maybe I look like their wife, maybe I look like their daughter. Maybe I have an elegant presence to them in some way. Great. I'll take it. Rather than them saying, oh, you know, she could have switched out that sweatshirt. You know what I mean? She could have put some nice -- Anne: She could have put some nice clothes. Not dirty. That would be my mother talking. Lau: Yeah. She could've put some, you know, taken off the dirty tennis shoes to come here. You know what I mean? It's-- Anne: My mother who always, you know what I'm saying? My mother, my mother did. Your mother, my mother used to say this all the, all the time she could like if I was going on, she goes, now make sure you put clean underwear on in case you get into an accident. Lau: Yeah. In case you're an accident. Anne: Yes. Oh my gosh. . So, but Lau, you know what's so interesting that you mentioned that when I first met you, I think one thing that was instantly drawn to was your smile and your laugh. And that I feel is like an inherent part of who you are and your personality. And again, I feel like that was a visual before I even heard you. Because remember we met during that webinar, we met on video. Lau: Yes. Anne: And I just remember your smile and your laugh and I thought instantly it was an instant connection. And I feel like that's what you want to be to your clients. You want to have an instant connection with your clients. Lau: You do. And to the point where it's so deeply psychological, they feel they know you. They feel they know you already. Like they really know you and you're thinking, I don't think you know me or they don't know me, but that's okay. That's okay. I want to know you. I'm going to know you. And if this is just a first step, then this is just a first step. Anne: And I feel if you're on social media at all, right? Social media is so visual these days. Right? I mean if you are on social media, you're probably throwing out a picture, a picture, maybe not of you, but it could be of your family, could be of your fur babies, could be of -- you're throwing out images of your authentic self. We hope. Right? Because sometimes, as we know is the issue with social media is it becomes the fake presence. But I think if any of you are on social media at all and you've got potential clients everywhere, and they could be seeing your presence socially before they even consider hiring you, and that social impression that they get from you could be from comments that you're making or pictures that you're sharing. Everything's video now. TikTok, Instagram reels. Facebook reels. And I feel like it's almost impossible for you to not showcase your visual on social media these days. Lau: Yeah. It is. Like you can't get away from it at all. Even if people are taking photos at an event that you attended, you're gonna show up somewhere in the photo. And they may not always be a great photo, but the point is you gotta stay at home and never leave and be super careful to not be caught in some sort of visual. And even in your branding, you have to put out some sort of visual for your branding. Anne: And I think if your fear is being pigeonholed, I think your vocal type might be pigeonholed anyways if you have a very unique voice. Right? I think when you're talking like a very young voice for your age or any type of voice that is different than you look like, whether you put your picture out there or not, I feel like you're going to be cast in a certain role. For example, if you have a very high pitched voice right now, although now it's becoming more commonplace, maybe you wouldn't be cast for an older personality that's buying, I don't know, bifocals. So whether your photo is out there or not, your voice is gonna be cast in that way or not based upon the sound or the perceived sound that the client is looking for. So I don't think it matters if you post a photo of yourself on your website that doesn't represent your voice because they're hiring you for the voice, and the voice is then being cast in a role as they see fit. But your authenticity comes through in that voice. Lau: Yes. And everything's subjective at the end of the day, like you can't get away from subjectivity. That's human nature. We're based on our own frame of reference, how we are perceiving you and how we're taking you in. So I don't think we can fully control that. But there is something, I think, especially with someone who doesn't know you, there is a psychological bond that happens quickly when they perceive that you care. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: They perceive you care enough to put yourself together, to do that little extra whatever it is you are doing, whether it's your hair, or your materials -- or as a woman, Anne, we talk about this all the time, I get so many people who say, Hey Lau, I love what you're wearing. What's that necklace you're wearing? Or where'd you get that ring? Or da da da. Sounds kind of materialistic, but it's something that they can connect to you on. Something that they care about, something that makes them feel comfortable. And then you'll make that chitchat based exactly on, oh, where I got this or what is that? Or, and then that always leads to the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. Anne: Absolutely. Lau: And so that, that's valuable. Anne: And people who know you because of what you've put out there, like visually and/or audibly, right, becomes a point of connection that you can then use to be memorable in your brand. So great discussion. So guys, if you're afraid to put your pho -- don't be afraid to put your photo out there. Don't be afraid to put yourself out there on video. Don't be afraid to put yourself out there in person, in front of your potential clients, in front of your clients. It is a piece of who you are, it is a piece of your brand, and it's a piece of your business. Lau: I'm with you all the way. Anne: Well, thank you, Lau, for another thrilling discussion. I love, I love, love, love talking to you every week. Lau: I love it too. And may I say we look fabulous today. Anne: Yes. We thank you , because we're our authentic selves. So with that, I'd like to give a great shout out to ipDTL. You too can network, communicate like BOSS. Find out more at ipdtl.com. And also if you have a local nonprofit that's close to your heart, if you've ever wanted to help them, you can visit 100voiceswhocare.org to learn how. You guys, have an amazing week, and we'll see you next week. Thanks so much. Bye. Lau: Bye. Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Raising your rates as a voice actor can be a daunting task, but it doesn't have to be. In this episode, Anne & Lau discuss tips for approaching money conversations with clients, moving past the fear around charging what you're worth and deciding when to raise your rates. It's important that you know what your time is worth and what kind of value your clients are getting from working with you. Your voice is an asset. By taking charge of these conversations & setting your rates accordingly, you can make sure that your business is running smoothly. Your clients want to work with someone who knows their own value and isn't afraid of asking for it. And if you need someone to talk you through the process, keep on listening… Transcript It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone, welcome to the VO BOSS podcast and the business superpower series with my special guest co-host Lau Lapides. Hey Lau. Woo-hoo! Always so wonderful to see you. Lau: Always great to be back. . Anne: Well, Lau it's a change of seasons and so I'm feeling like I've gone back and reflected upon my business, and it is the time of year where I make the consideration, do I want to raise my prices or not? And what a great discussion Lau, because it is so difficult. How do you raise your prices? How do you raise your rates? And how do you go about doing that with clients that you've had for years or new clients for fear of, oh my gosh, your rates are too high, or rates are too low. I thought it would be a wonderful thing to discuss today on how we can raise our rates, because as businesses, we need to be profitable, right? For the majority of us in this industry, we would like it to be a business and not a hobby. And so to be a business, we need to yield a profit and to yield a profit, that includes pricing yourself. So let's start with you. Talk to me about, first of all, how do you set your prices for your particular voiceover jobs, acting jobs? What do you do first in order to set a fair rate for yourself or a fair price to yourself? Lau: The question of the year, I say -- Anne: Isn't it though? Lau: Not even of the day, but of the year. I can hear all of your listeners. The BOSSes are moving a little bit closer, and listening closer. Now, it's a great conversation to have. So I really am thrilled that we're having it today. In my opinion, there's a lot of fear around this conversation. There's a lot of apprehension, a lot of almost terror, I'd say, in really giving yourself as a person and also your brand, as a business, a price tag. That's very difficult for people's brains to get around, especially creatives who are artists and women can have a tough time with that as well. Anne: Oh yeah. Lau: And I think everyone can have a tough time as they move through their business, not just in early stages either. Like, people that are at 10, 15, 20 years into the biz having challenges with this topic. I myself have had many challenges through the years. I think one of the first things that, when we take a step back and we look at the whole fee structure of what we are doing, we have to ask ourself what is our worth? What is our value? And it's not, not a simple, oh, this is what I'm worth and this is my value. It's really something to journal about, something to think deeply on, to converse with people you know and trust, and to do some market research, to really go into the market, say, this is our industry, this is my space. The more I niche down in my space, the more I can research the industry going rates, and really just document that. I would take a little bit of time and document that and update that like every six months to a year, just update. Anne: Sure. Lau: Every six months to a year, get knowledgeable. Anne: So starting what the industry rates are. And so I totally agree with you there. In order for you to raise your rates, you have to set your rates. And so that's the question, number one is before you can raise them, how do you set them? And I think a great reference point is, and we've mentioned this multiple times on the podcast, is the rate guides. GVAA has a fantastic rate guide, Gravy for the Brain has one, SAG-AFTRA has their rates posted. So that's a great benchmark to start to set your rates. And I think we've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it again, whether you are new to the industry or you've been in the industry for 20 years, you can price yourself at the standard rate. Just because you're new doesn't mean that you have to price yourself at a lower rate than somebody who's been in the business for 15, 20 years. Because in essence, it actually helps the industry if you are pricing yourself at a fair going rate according to the rate guides. Lau: I would agree with that. Totally agree with that. You took the words out, right outta my head. I was about to say, you almost do the industry in injustice when you go too far low and too far below what the industry rates are. Even though there may be times where you do that and you choose to do that, you need to do that and that's okay. But as a running rule, you wanna stay at the industry rates or above because you wanna drive the market up. You don't wanna drive the market down. Anne: Exactly. Lau: We oftentimes hear the sayings like it's a race to the bottom. What that really means is like we're all excited about working. We wanna get as much work as we can, charge them anything and just get anything for the business. And I think that there's a time and place for that. But for sustainability and longevity of a business, it just doesn't work. It does not work in any way. And you are devalued. You're immediately devalued in the eyes of that prospect client. So to really sit down and say, okay, whether I'm starting out or whether I'm running my business, you and I have been running our businesses for 15-plus years, is to say, what is my value today? How has that changed from a year ago? How have we grown? What are my products? How have I niched my products? And what are those products valued at in the market today? I would start there. That's a good start right there. And then to start thinking about time. What does time mean to you? How much value is your time? How valuable is your time? What's your worth? Your knowledge, your ethos, your education -- Anne: Your experience. Lau: Your experience, right? It's, that's where the subjective force comes in. What makes me unique? What's my value proposition different from others in the space doing similar work, helps establish that value. Anne: Well, I think also one thing that helps us as freelancers is that I like to break it into different categories. You have the new clients, the ever evolving, I guess, cycle of new clients that come along. And for that, it's easy to set a rate or raise your rate. Okay? Because they've not had previous experience with you. So in a way that makes it easier for us to either celebrate or raise our rates. And it is up to us though, to take that step to do that. I mean, I myself was guilty for back in the beginning, keeping my rates, keeping my rates, keeping my rates until I felt that I had built my business up enough to warrant raising my rates. But I do feel that every year is a great time to reevaluate your rates, and the economy too. You've gotta take a look at the economy. Now, we've got so many different things happening at this point in our industry. We have the evolving economy, which is not doing great right now. So is it a good time to raise my rates? Right? We've got that to consider. What is the market willing to pay? What is the market willing to bear for a price of voiceover, especially now with synthetic voices looming on the horizon. So there's a lot of other factors that need to be taken into place, and if it wants to play into our fear, well, that's what does it for sure. Right? A lot of times the economy and other factors including competition from not only voice actors but now synthetic voices -- and so that just builds upon the fear. If you weren't scared before raising your rates, now we've got a couple, a couple extra things that are being thrown into the mix, but I will say that because we are freelancers and because we continually acquire new clients, this is a good time to be able to set or raise your rate for the new clients that come aboard. And you know what? Here's the deal. If you decide to set your rate higher than you normally do or raise your rate, what's gonna happen is you will see if the market will bear it, right? If people are gonna say, yeah, sure, that's great. And not question the rate. And so when that happens, there's nothing better than that, because that gives you the confidence to really go forth and raise your rates for all clients. So it's a great test bed when you get a new client to either set your rate higher or actually change your rate for the new clients. Now I like the whole grandfather clause where I've had a client for many years, and because they are a good client that continues to give me business, I will make a decision on an independent basis whether or not I will raise my rates for them. And then that becomes a different conversation, right? Because now that's where you've gotta like own up to saying, look, I appreciate you as a client, and I'm so thankful for the business and thankful for our relationship together. How do I say I'm going to raise my rights now? Lau: Ooh. Anne: Oh, there's the tough one. Lau: Ooh, snap. There's what she did. Well, everyone has a different thought process. And again, you took the words out of my head because the way I tend to run my business is I tend to show loyalty and allegiance to current clients and typically stay at the rates that they're at. You certainly don't have to. And there are many businesses that will go up in rates on current clients. I just haven't done that quite as much. I keep them at the rate, grandfather them in, have the blank slate on new people with a new pricing coming in. And typically there just isn't any conflict of interest with that. Oftentimes they don't even know the difference. They just see you coming in, and here's the interesting psychological value to that. All of a sudden you give a new pricing, and they may not flinch at all and say, oh, okay, great. And then you think, oh my gosh, I could have done that years ago. Anne: Yes. Lau: I could have done that years ago instead of playing all these psychological games with myself. To this person, the value is there. You are worth it. They're ready to go, and why wouldn't they pay that price? So I think to find good quality clients, the kind of clients that fit you, fit your business is so important. And to know that there are going to be clients that are not good for you; they're not good for you any longer, or they don't fit what your value is because they see it as a cost. Anne: Right. Right. Exactly. Lau: They don't see it as an investment. So I tend to use very strategic language when I speak to people. Is this your investment or is this a cost for you? And then educate them on what the difference is. And once they figure out that this is an investment, oh yeah, I'm glad you put it that way, then it is worth it to me. So sometimes it takes the little bit of education in there for them to shift their mindset to, well, you spent how much on a college education? You spent how much on your graduate degree? You spent how much on your online courses, what have you. Was that cost or was that investment? So this is the same thing. This is the same thing. Anne: I love that you say cost or investment, because I think that clients who look at it as an investment are absolutely going to see your worth much more readily than a client that sees it as a cost. And it's also important, I think, for us as actors and creatives to understand that our voice is an asset. And I know I say it, yes, your voice is an asset, but what does that really mean? Right? Your voice contributes to potential millions of dollars in sales , right, for a client. And sometimes I think we forget that. We become so far removed from the product, the end product that we are providing the voice for that we forget our worth in terms of that. So don't forget that your voice as an asset -- and this, I'll tell you what, I've learned this in my dealings with trying to talk to, let's say, synthetic voice producers or directors or companies that are producing synthetic voices -- to say that the voice is an asset, that it is worthy of compensation. It is worthy of fair compensation because that asset is what contributes to a company's brand. And don't forget that, BOSSes. Your voice contributes to a company's brand, which is no different than a marketing material or an on-air camera talent that gets paid a good amount of money to represent the brand of a company. So I think because we're in our studios, and we're like alone, we forget that somehow, that our voice really does contribute to a brand's value and a brand's ability to sell. Lau: That's right. Absolutely. And quick anecdote on that one, just this past week I have a, a new agent colleague from LA who opened an agency and she was calling me to check in on a contract that she's working on for voiceover, and she doesn't currently represent voiceover. And she was going through what would be a fair rate for this talent, and she kept saying over and over and over again, I mean, these people are making millions off of this. They're making millions off of this. And we're talking about the difference between like, they offered $350, $350, she went up to $1100. I said, why don't you offer at lea -- oh my god, 1500 is like still so incredibly -- and her, there was a fear factor in there. I could hear the fear slip in. I said, what's the worst that happens? Anne: They say, no. Lau: You slide, you do whatever you want to do and feel is right. But my goodness, the truth is it should be actually so, so, so much higher than that. She just didn't wanna start at such a high rate compared to what the original rate they were giving her. She didn't wanna slide so high. But the truth is, it's so outta whack, it's so outta bounds in terms of what a company may be doing with that brand and creating gross versus what the talent is being paid, which is nothing, pennies, literally less than pennies. Anne: There's something to be said for pricing yourself in such a way that it is value because you've priced yourself higher versus if you price yourself too low, then it's a perception of, well, okay, so that's a cheap price, right, for a cheap talent maybe. And that may or may not be the way that you want your brand to be perceived. So I always have said that I'm Tiffany's, right? I don't go on sale. This is my rate. And if a client chooses to accept that rate, then they are also accepting obviously that that is my worth and that I'm worth the value of that. And I think that if they don't, it's okay. You have time to go and find the people that will pay you the rate that you're worth and value that charge or your increase in price. And it's a difficult, difficult thing, especially when you attack it from, well, if I raise my prices, am I going to raise my prices for everyone? And I don't think you have to. I think as we've discussed it, I've got people that are grandfathered in, and each one of those clients that I've been working with for a certain amount of time, each gets a special consideration. Now, I might have worked with people for 10 years already at the same rate. And I think it makes it a whole lot easier when you propose to them that your rates, due to increased costs in running your business, your rates have to change. And this, for anybody that uses, let's say an audio editor for their work, and they're paying them as well, if they go up in price, and you're still charging the same, well, you've gotta recoup those costs somehow as a business. Lau: Exactly. Anne: I've got that. I've got people that I pay for services that are raising their prices on me. And as a business, I've gotta somehow figure out how am I going to accommodate that cost? Because as a business, I don't wanna lose profit on that because I wanna maintain or elevate my business. Lau: Right. And there is a huge credence to the philosophy that I wanna price myself above the market rate. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Lau: Not to get into like scamming or anything like that. Nothing negative. Like, oh, I just wanna make as much money as I can. No, no. You wanna say, listen, here's my price, here's my value, here's my investment, and I'm giving you, as you said, the Tiffany's approach. I'm giving you that Tiffany's approach. So you're investing in that, and that, that actually psychologically tells people that your worth is so high, it's so much higher. So it must be worth the cost of admission. So I'm going down that road, I've been going down that road for a number of years now, saying, yes, we are a slightly higher than the average studio. Yes, we are slightly higher, whatever, because here's the value prop X, Y, Z. That's what we do. That's what we give. You don't want that, then we're not the place for you. Anne: Right. Right. Lau: So yes, being able to walk away, being able to say, this business isn't gonna work, this client isn't gonna be good. They don't see the value, that's okay. I think that's fine. You know, you don't have to sort of tear for every single person who comes your way. They're not always gonna be the right ones for you. Anne: You bring up a good point there, and I've seen this as some discussion on the forums as well lately about some talent feeling that they have a need to school their clients on a fair price. And there's a way to do that that is respectful of a client. I think, again, you have to really put yourself in the client's shoes. Not all clients are in direct control of the money that can be paid for your services. Not all clients really do have the budget, and if they don't, I think it's well worth it for us to say or advise that you're not rude about it. Because not every company has the budget to pay voice services for whatever you might be commanding at the moment. So I think be careful when you are renegotiating with your clients back and forth for a rate. I think for me, when it's a new client and I'm negotiating a rate, I always start on the higher end, which makes it easy to negotiate down. I always leave an open space in my quote, and a lot of times that's in an email that says, please let me know if this fits within your budget. And that sentence alone pretty much just opens the door for negotiation. And so then a client can come back to me and say, well, I've only been allocated this much for the budget, and then I can work with that. So I always kind of shoot higher anyway. And so that kind of works within my, let's raise the rates this year. I think it's a conscious decision that you as a business person, right -- put the creative aside for a moment -- well, keep the creative to know what you're worth, but also put on your business hat and really put yourself in the position. Here's what I'm going to do, and stick with it and try to just get past that fear. I think that's the biggest thing that stops the majority of us from raising our rates or charging what we're worth in the first place. Lau: Yeah. I think you just have to do it. Like you have to go ahead and do it. Look, what's the worst that happens? It doesn't work. Anne: They say no. Lau: You can go back. You can go back, you can change your rates, make it lower. Like no one's holding you against a wall. You can do it, but you've gotta try it. I, this gets into negotiation, Anne, a little bit, but I would say it's very important to, once you give that number, once you give that fee, to stop talking. It's very important to give it, to have a sense of just like you would deliver copy and say, this is what we do for this investment company or for this healthcare. We help you, we give you health. This is what our fee is. Anne: Mm-hmm. And then wait. Lau: And then stop. Anne: Then wait. Say nothing. Lau: What do they say in sales? Like the first person who speaks loses. Anne: Exactly, that's true. Lau: Because our nature as caring people, many are artists I wanna say, but you know, we're the lowest, we're kind of cheap, and we're not gonna take, and to sort of justify and give excuses and tell you why we selected that fee -- don't do it. Don't succumb to that seductive force of wanting to explain or self-deprecate. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: Or say, I shouldn't be doing this and I don't know why I'm doing this, but hopefully it works for you, and I hope you can do this. Don't do it. Don't do it. Anne: Yeah basically -- Lau: Don't do it. Anne: Here's my price. Let me know if it fits within your budget. And then I wait. Lau: Yes. Anne: If you start to pursue it or act desperate in any way, then that's negotiation skills. And I'm so glad in a way that I had to develop those early on because when I first got into the business, I waited a long time before I pursued an agent. And so, so until then I was negotiating for narration, you know, non-broadcast work. And so that gave me a lot of confidence. I could try things out, I tried rates out. And it's funny because people will ask me, well, what do you charge for this? And I'll be like, I pulled that right outta my butt. I pulled that number right outta my butt. But honestly, this's where it comes half the time because I've got a basis. But I don't necessarily know this client. I try to validate the client first and see what other work they have and educate myself as much as possible and then give a number. And sometimes that number, there's no basis for that number other than it's just I took a benchmark and I priced it up a certain amount based upon my last experience. And basically it's all trial and error, and I've always left myself that window open for negotiation. And that experience has really, I think, educated me more than just about anything else in this industry, was the education of being able to negotiate. And so for that you play a lot of games and you fight a lot of fear. And it takes just a few times for things to work in your favor. Always ask the client if they have a budget in mind, because that budget can also help you to gauge pricing. I asked a client once what their budget was, and they're like, oh, I can't spend more than $3,000 for this. And I'm like, whoa. That was like three times what I was gonna quote. Lau: So much higher. Anne: That was three times higher than I was gonna quote. And I said, I think I can work with that . So that sort of thing can really give you confidence to understand where your worth is and then also where you might price and where you might start to raise your rates. So every year I say, take a look at what you're charging people, 'cause I have a base guideline, and by the way, I don't advertise it at all. I think that it used to be a thing where some people advertised their rates, and I think in that kind of a tactic, it's almost like if you're gonna advertise your rates, you're looking to get people who are trying to get the lowest cost. Here's my rates, I'll do a commercial for $100, or you know, a 60-second commercial for $100. And I think if you're gonna do that, then you're playing the wrong game there. You're playing the lowest bid wins, and you've kind of limited yourself in terms of profit that you can make by publishing your rates. So it's more of a custom boutique service if you say, contact me or if you're interested, here are my demos. If you're interested, contact me and then start the conversation. Lau: And that's exactly why it's important to stay quiet as much as you speak, because you're gonna pick up the cues of what that client is saying to you and you're gonna make your quick notes so that in your brain you can say, oh I can go hide her. I didn't realize that. Or I'm way too high. Am I willing to lose this client? Like you can start that conversation, that inner monologue going, if you're listening to the cues that are coming in. And there was one more point I wanted to make 'cause you said something so cool and that was about control yourself. Like control your emotions, control how you react to things. Here's the psychology of selling. Is that like nothing should get me upset is the truth. Everything should be objectified just enough so that whatever comes out of them is not really about me. They're talking about my business. So they're not -- so I'm not just like an actor. It's like if I don't get the job, it's not really about me, it's about what I'm offering is not really right for that role. Well, it's the same in business. They're not really talking about me. 'Cause guess what? They don't know me and they don't know me at all. I'm a stranger. They're talking about their perception of this whole business that they may not know anything about. Or they may have had a, a big history, they may have been burned, who knows? Like we don't know when they come in the room, what they've been through. They may have been through a lot. So you have to give them the benefit of the doubt that if they get irritated or angry or if they treat you inappropriately, you have to understand that they're coming in with a history. But don't fall into it yourself. Like we used to say in training, leave your trash at the door. You know what I mean? Like you, well you can pick it up on your way out, but don't put it in someone else's court. Because you lose your power when you do that. You talk about superpowers, it renders you incapable of diplomacy and neutralization, when you start to say, how could he say that about me? Or how could he downgrade me like that or whatever, you know? Anne: That's what it is. I think part of it is the emotional aspect of it and keep the emotions out of the business. Take it out. Lau: Take it out, take it out. Anne: It's so hard for us because our product is so personal to us. It is our voice. It is who we are. It is our brand. And so when we get treated by a potential client and them, I guess, diminishing our worth in terms of no, I can't pay that. Or no, that's not in our budget, we have to not take that personally because it's not about us; it's about business. Lau: That's right. Anne: And some clients literally don't have the budget and we have to just accept that and not be offended, not be angry. Lau: Mm-Hmm. And isn't it okay, Anne, that they don't want it, they don't like it, they don't agree with it? It's still a free country. You know what I mean? It's like they have a right to not think that's fair or to not wanna put the money into it. They have a right to do anything they wanna do. One technique that I use that I found just for my own sake, that preserves me in the process is whatever happens in terms of the fee structure and the negotiation and the chit chat, I always immediately redirect. If I hear something negative coming out, I immediately affirm it. I hear it, I hear you. And then I redirect it onto something positive, and nine times outta ten, it works really well. So like for instance, I say, oh, my fee is this for whatever, for a demo. And they go, oh my God, that's expensive. And I'll say, well, you know, it's an investment. You're, you're investing in your future, whatever. And they'll say, well, I don't know. I don't, I don't know. Let me think about that. I'll say, great, think about it. I'm here for you when you come back. And in the meantime, I appreciate you sharing your story with me. That was valuable to me. And they go, well, thank you. That's sweet of you to say that. And then the conversation is redirected. And I mean that, I'm not just saying it as a sales tactic. I mean it from Lau that I'm gonna walk away saying I may or may not close a client. But I heard a really interesting story and I learned something from that conversation, and now I know something about what I can't do or what I can't do. And so you have to have your takeaways too from the selling process. It's not just about the number, it's about I'm constantly reevaluating my own worth, reevaluating my own value, reevaluating how I view the business and perceive the human contact. And that's worth its weight and gold. Right? . Anne: Well, it's so funny that you say that. And I have multiple aspects of my business where I, I, I mean, it's not just about voiceover clients. I have coaching clients, I have demo clients, I have VO Peeps memberships, I have VO BOSS marketing that I sell to people. And I'm constantly having to, if people are like, well, they're on a subscription, and they decide that -- end of year, it's always the time when people reevaluate their expenses and they're saying, well, was it worth it or was it not? And so whenever I get those emails saying, well, I'm looking to cancel because you know, I'm not seeing the value, I will always have, thank you so much for your feedback. I'm grateful for it. Here's my thought. Here's my thought. Think of this, think of that. And here's the value that we're providing, and we appreciate you and the value, and let us try to work something out. And I'll usually do that once. And it's amazing how many times I can recoup someone by pointing out the value that they might have missed over the years or the month, or this is how we're bringing value to your brand. And so I think it's worth a shot rather than just saying, well, okay. I mean, I could just say okay and not care about it. But I'm always responding back with, thank you for your feedback. Thank you for your input. I appreciate that. I completely understand. It's hard at the end of the year for everyone. Here are some thoughts to consider. Lau: Perfect. Anne: And that is something that you can do for a client if you raise your rates with them. If they say no or they push back, you can say, thank you, I appreciate your feedback. And that's how you respond. Really, you have to just respond with grace. There's no other way really, and gratefulness for them being your client. But I say, yeah, stay firm with, here's my new rates. And I don't think that your rates should again, be outside of, you don't wanna go crazy and price yourself out of the market. I think that there's an acceptable range where you can raise your rates and it's not ridiculous. So I have vendors for me right now that are raising their rates and I have to figure out how I'm going to absorb that cost or raise my rates in return. Lau: That's right. Anne: But as voice talent, voice artist, voice actors, absolutely. I think it's worth at this point, or at whatever time, once a year to evaluate what you're charging and then consider whether it's time to raise your rates. Because we all need to progress. We all need to continue the profit, the economy, other things happen around us and we need to accommodate for that. Lau: Yes. If you work on your plan, you work on your action plan for the year or for the quarter, you'll know what you wanna be grossing, you'll know what you wanna be taking in, and you'll know how close or how far away I am from that based on the rates that I'm charging right now and the volume that I deal with. Anne: Look at the numbers, BOSSes. I know it's scary, but I think the first thing is look at the numbers. And I think that's probably the most scary thing for most of us, probably scarier than an audition or a gig that we really want. It's scarier to look at the numbers. What's your incoming, what's your outgoing, what are your rates now? And have the courage to step back, look at it, and raise those rates if you need to. So great conversation, Lau. Lau: Anne, can I throw in one more thing for the road? Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Lau: Because. I just thought of this and I know you're like this and I know I'm like this. I think we care so much and that's why we get scared. If we didn't care -- Anne: Makes sense. Lau: -- at all, we couldn't give a two hoots about what they think, whatever, we'll raise it sky high -- no, it's because we care and the good people deeply care about the people first. And so we're always regarding their feelings and how they view things and what, what makes life easier for them. And that's a wonderful trait to have. We just have to balance that with taking care of our selves as well. Anne: Absolutely. Great point. Thank you, Lau. Oh, great topic. Absolutely great topic. And I think we all need to address it at one point during the year in our careers. So I'd like to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect network and talk about money and rates like a BOSS. Find out more at ipdtl.com. And also I want you to know about a chance where you can use your voice to make an immediate difference in the world and give back to the communities that give to you. Visit 100voiceswhocare.org to commit. You guys, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye! Lau: See you then! Bye. Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Fear is a powerful force, and one that can hold you back from reaching your full potential. But fear doesn't have to be a bad thing. If you let fear in and learn from it, you'll be able to overcome the obstacles that keep you from achieving success as a voice actor. This may seem counterintuitive, but when you're afraid of something, whether it's a new genre, emerging technology, or a difficult conversation, you can use that fear as motivation to push yourself beyond your comfort zone. Bosses, you can't grow without fear. Listen up to learn how you can turn what you're most afraid of into positive actions that will transform your voice over career… Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey hey, everyone, welcome to the VO BOSS Podcast and the Business Superpower series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I am so happy to bring back to the show, Lau Lapides. Hey Lau. Lau: Hey, how are you, Anne? Anne: I'm doing good, actually. oh, wait, I should start that over because I need like, ooh, . Lau: Ooh. Are you doing sound effects or no? Anne: I'm doing sound effects, Lau. I needed sound effects for today's -- Lau: I got one for you. Ready? Anne: All right. (breathing sound) What's that? Lau: You know, that's the serial killer. That's Mike Meyers and all of that. Friday the 13th. Anne: Oh my God. See, so I don't watch horror films or scary movies. Lau: Gotcha. Anne: But what, that actually brings us to a great topic for today since it is near the holiday, the scary, spooky holiday. What scares you? What scares you, BOSSes, and how do you deal with fear? I think that's a really great topic. Lau, I mean, we've talked about fear prior to this, but we haven't really concentrated on it. I am a firm believer that you need to do something scary every single day, in order to grow. Lau: I love that. Anne: In order to grow. Lau: That's what the great Eleanor Roosevelt said, right? I do something every day that scares you. I would agree with that. I would definitely agree with that. And if it means just simply stepping outside your box, getting uncomfortable, we have these conversations every day, right, Anne, with the clients and each other, like how do we get uncomfortable to stretch ourselves and to learn? And yeah, to get a little scared, to get a little frightened, like get the dopamine kick going so that you can push yourself and really stretch yourself? Yeah. I think it's important to get scared. Anne: So what's frightening, do you think, for most new talent when they come into this industry and try to be a success? Maybe that's the scariest thing, right? Lau: Yeah. Yeah. I think fear is the number one factor for failure. Anne: I do too, fear of failure, right? Lau: Yeah. It can mean your ultimate success or your ultimate demise, and how you respect fear, how you treat fear, how you accept fear into your life, and then how you overcome it. I really think that you have to just grab a hold of fear and understand it's healthy to feel fear. Your survival fight or flight technique does kick in, right, when you're doing new things. But to answer your question, I think a lot of things scare newbies. And one is, you know how the market can be saturated. It can be lots and lots of people that are working, that you may perceive to be ahead of you or professionals, and you're coming in and you don't know exactly what you're doing just yet. And feeling like that fish out of water can be a very scary experience. Anne: Yeah. Well, let's start with that, right? Not necessarily knowing what you're doing. I think that was in the very beginning for me, coming out of the corporate world or wherever you're coming from to get into this industry is maybe, number one, not knowing everything there is to know about the industry. And by the way, we all don't know everything, but , you gain experience over the years. Fear of navigating a business when if you have never done that before, I think that probably surpasses all of my fears. I mean, first you've got the fear, am I good enough to make it and to be successful? But then it's like, oh gosh, well, what do I do? How do I create a business? What do I even do to start? Do I need to have a DBA? Do I need to incorporate? What sort of things do I need to do to run this business and accounting? Like I've never done accounting, I've never negotiated a job. All of those things. And it all seems to just kind of happen at once in the beginning of your career. And I think that that can be overwhelming to some people. Lau: You know, when you said accounting, your eyes got really, really big. It was like a 1920s talkie. It was like accounting? Anne: Accounting. Oh my gosh. Lau: No! Anne: Right? Lau: But, but see, the physiological reaction you do have to ideas and concepts that really do cause this physical distress. And I would say failure overall, like the fear of failure. What if this doesn't go well? What if I am terrible? What if I don't make money? What if I can't get a job? What if, what if, what if? That's really scary to a lot of people. Anne: Right? And I'll tell you, when I first started full-time and we moved from the east coast to the west coast, I had said to my husband, Jerry, until I get on my feet, hopefully you'll get a job that can pay you a little bit better. And so it can kind of compensate, and we'll be able to afford the cost of living. And once he got here, literally, I think it was nine months, they laid him off. And that became very scary because I still was getting my wheels turning and spinning and making money full-time for the business. But once that second source of finance kind of fell , it was like, whoa. Now I was really scared because I felt like I had a lot of pressure to do well and contribute to the household because he was kind of taking care of things until I was getting my business set up. So that really put a lot of fear. But what was cool about it in a way, is that it motivated me. So fear really worked as a motivation for me to get my butt in gear. And if I was afraid of anything, like how do I market, how do I -- certainly took a step towards educating myself. And I think that is one way to really combat your fears, is to educate yourself on the thing that you are most afraid of, like accounting or running a business. Do I need to register my business? How do I register my business? How can I get voiceover jobs? How can I market myself? Well, I think a good thing to start with is education. And I love the internet. I love Google. Like people have called me Anne GanGoogle because yes, I use it for everything. Right? Lau: That's catchy. Anne: Yeah. I mean, you don't have to go to the library anymore, and all the young people are gonna go, what? What you used to have to go to the library? Yeah. We used to have to go -- Lau: What is a library? Anne: -- the library and check out books. But now at our fingertips, really, we have so much information, so much information that we can use to educate ourselves. And I think that's the first step to helping you to challenge that fear and get over that fear. Education, knowledge is power. Lau: Mm. Education is key. Yeah, I'm right over there because knowledge is power. And you do feel, we're talking about superheros, right? We're talking about how we get empowered and powerful in the industry, especially when you're new. This is true of anything. When you're new at something, you're learning, you're, you're trying to get experiential and it takes time. It's not an overnight success. Anne: Yeah. Lau: It really does take time. And just kind of understanding that, having the knowledge, having the education. Totally, totally good. And the fear, I mean, when I think about fear, I think of how does community, my family, my friends, my colleagues, how do they view me? What are they saying to me? I might be a little fearful. Are they gonna judge me? Are they gonna think this is for real? Are they gonna support me? Are they going to try to stop me or put a boundary in my way? I've met a lot of clients, and I know you have as well, unfortunately, that didn't have the support, and in fact had sort of axes thrown at them all the way through and dodging people just to get to where they want to be. They just didn't have the support system. So that is scary. That is scary, not having a tribe, not having that community surrounding you that supports you. Anne: Yeah, exactly. I think that in addition to education, having the support group around you, and it just brings me to the episode that we did about your VO tribe. So very important to have that support, especially because we work by ourselves. We're typically in our booths and coworkers are not around us. And so having that verbal support where if you've got a question or you're nervous, you can reach out to someone and get some support there. And family is very important, I think, because uh, , I think maybe all of us have had at least one member of the family that has said, what do you do? Like, what is this? ? What is that? Lau: What is, why would you -- Anne: What is is voiceover? Yeah. I don't understand. So, I do think that the support of your family, first and foremost, is wonderful. And if you don't have that, the VO community is a wonderful community. I'd say be very careful and social media can be wonderful, but it can also be, oh gosh, it can also not be so wonderful. So , I think that if you have accountability groups or support groups on Facebook, people that you can write to, ask questions to, that's gonna be very helpful for you as well. I think that there's something to be said for, yes, it's great to have that support, but I think it's also something that if you can challenge yourself on a daily basis, like I said, try to do something every day that scares you a little bit. Like if you've never gotten out there to market or sent an email to an agent, I think that writing those kind of tasks down, things that scare you, and then attempting to maybe backtrack the steps that it takes to get you to that point and just try to attack one of those every day. Lau: Absolutely. And that is scary because again, it's new. It's something you're not accustomed to. You don't know, am I doing this the right way? What are they expecting of me? I think that is one of the areas that people stop. They just get stopped in their track. And I thought of another one, Anne, for you, this is very common, I see this, the fear of technology. And many of us fall into it at different levels, right? Like how technology driven you are, how knowledgeable you are about equipment. Are you good at setting up your studio? How do you upgrade and level up? I mean, these are all areas that terrify people. Really. Anne: I agree. I agree. And you know, technology, see, you hit my soft spot there. And BOSSes that don't know -- I mean, I think a lot of BOSSes know me, but if you don't, I am very, very much technology oriented. I worked in technology, I still work in technology, and I like to be on the bleeding edge of it, speaking of things that are scary. And one of the reasons I like that is because I feel like for me, I always take the stance that technology is there to help us progress, to help us advance in society. And it's not evil. You can certainly take that stance if you'd like, that technology is evil. But I don't think that either way you're going to stop the advancement of technology. I think technology would be, oh gosh, so much further if we didn't put a stop to it. If humans didn't say, no, no, no, no, no all the time, I think we would be further along in our technological advancements. And I like to believe in the good of technology. And that includes, I speak the words of synthetic voices. We're not stopping them. They're coming. And I think we just need to know about them and know all that we can about them in order for us to really be able to manage our business. We have to be able to manage our business 'cause they're going to be alongside us; whether we partake in them or not, we're going to need to learn how to deal with them. So if they happen to take parts of the industry away, or people prefer the synthetic voices for maybe shorter news blasts or telephony prompts, whatever it may be, we need to evolve in our industry to kind of work alongside that. And maybe what we need to do is hone our performance skills in another genre. The first thing that I always tell my students is make sure that you are acting, and you are acting as human as possible. Because that's exactly the opposite of what the synthetic voices are at this moment. So we can offer a product that is unique to us. So work on your performance skills so that you can be more human than ever. And I think that that's one way to face the challenge. And also for any technological piece of this business that you're scared of or not familiar with, take a class. Lau: Yes. Anne: I mean, educate yourself or outsource that. Just make sure that you understand enough about the technology so that when you outsource that you can manage the person that is taking care of your technology. And I'll say one thing probably most people like to outsource is their website. I know what a website is capable of. I know what I want in a website, but I don't make websites. And so for that reason, I hire someone to help me. But I know enough about that website that I can log into the website, I can go and make tiny changes on the content. Or if I don't know how to do that specifically, I have a methodology to make those changes. Right? I have somebody who can make those changes, and then I have a backup to somebody that can make those changes, so that I am never going to be at a loss for controlling that technology. Lau: Hmm. I love that. And at the end of the day, if you wanna be a voiceover talent, just the bottom line is, like you have to create a home studio. You don't -- Anne: Oh yeah. Lau: -- have a choice anymore. The industry standard. The best practices that you're gonna have. Even minimal, but some sort of recording system at home that you can feel good about, you can feel strong about, you can troubleshoot, you can upgrade. I think the days of relying on going to other studios and having engineers do everything for you is passed, is passé. So as a VO talent, it's really a necessary evil, so to speak that, you know, enough base knowledge that you could cut an audition for yourself and feel good about it. Anne: Yeah. Well, and just not worry that you don't have good sound. I had a wonderful series on BOSS audio with Tim Tippetts, and just the simple fact -- now he built this studio, custom built this studio for me. And I walk into it every day understanding that this is solid. I am not going to have any type of environment acoustic issues in this studio. The only thing that might go wrong at this point, 'cause the structure is solid and the structure is built. And that is a major level of fear, I think, for most talent when they get into the industry, is getting that space, right, acoustically sound and ready to produce broadcast audio. And so really, I can walk into the studio every day, and I don't have the fear that my environment is not working for me. And that is a huge relief. That's a huge relief. And that was something, again, I outsourced someone to do for me. And it took care of that fear. It alleviates the fear of that now. Now my fear is that, I don't know, maybe my cable is bad or my microphone for whatever reason. But again, that's another technological part that I understand that if something happens to that technology, I know how to fix it. Or if I don't know how to fix it, I can replace it with the backup. And I go back to -- I know I've had an episode prior to this with Erikka J about backups and technology and back up your backups. And that's always a good thing so that you're never in a spot where you cannot complete the job. And that causes fear. That causes stress. Lau: It does. And having people on your team, whether they're contractors that you can call in people that you can delegate to help fix things. Oh yeah. Uh, folks, you know, that are reps that can call in for technical advice. Like you have to have that ready to go. Anne: Oh yeah. Lau: You can't wait until something goes wrong. Anne: Absolutely. Lau: Right? So, and it to alleviate the stress, alleviate the fear. I got another one for you. How about the fear of your voice, your vocal apparatus not working well? Anne: Oh yeah. Lau: Not being able to have longevity health or having health issues, related issues like allergies or asthma or anything coming into play. Because after all, we're just, and there's so many things in the world -- yeah. Acid reflux. We're human beings in the world. So we have to live every day and figure out, okay, how do I live as clean as I can? How do I take care of my body and my mind? How do I do all that? But when something goes wrong, see, this is where professional actors and singers really have it over the average person, like if sick with the flu or God forbid Covid, or they have a terrible allergy attack, they know how to overcome it. They have techniques. They have herbal remedies, they know what vocal rest means. They know how to work through the sickness. Whereas the average person doesn't. So I think that there's a fear in folks at all ages that, oh, am I gonna be able to get through a two or three hour session? Am I gonna be able to have quality sound from morning 'til night? Anne: Well, I think in terms of voice, am I going to be able to make a two hour session or a three -- depending on what you're doing, right, that's definitely a concern. If you're doing video games, you're doing efforts and you're really working that, that instrument hard, then there are, you know, exercises of course, that you can do to build those muscles up. And of course there are sometimes that you absolutely cannot help it if you are sick. Right? And you have a cold. And so in those cases, I think to alleviate any kind of fear that you're, you're gonna lose work, then work on those relationships with your clients. Right? So that if you are sick, we are all human. I mean, it's very understandable. And we did just say we're still going through a pandemic or we're, you know -- that's, that's very understandable. And I think that clients will be understanding if you've got a good relationship with that. And so I think to alleviate the fear there is, have good relationships with your clients and be authentic. Be human. Lau: Be human. And Anne, I actually had something happen not too long ago with one of our talents in our roster that is a wonderful talent, but he didn't make the right choice. And what was the choice? He was sick. He was sick one day. And he chose to go through a session with a client and the client listened to it. They knew he was sick, he was at his home studio so he could do this easily. And they said, we have to tell you, Lau, we're a little annoyed because he only has half of his voice. It's not what we hired and we don't know why he didn't cancel and reschedule the session. Now we got to go through it again. And he was fine. We didn't charge them more money. The talent was like apologetic. He said, I should have told you. I didn't wanna be a nonprofessional by not showing up. I said, It's not about not showing up. It's about communicating what is actually happening and allowing your client to make that choice. Let them make the choice. Anne: Oh, absolutely, your voice is your product. And so, it really becomes, at that point, I think professionally, remember that our voice is our product. And if our voice is not in good shape, you wouldn't deliver a product that is tattered and torn and worn and raspy. If you were a client, you certainly wouldn't want that. So you always have to be conscious of that fact. And that is, your voice should be in tiptop shape because that is your product. And the more professional thing is to, yeah, when it's not in tiptop shape, have that relationship with the client to say, look, I'm not feeling well and I just wanna give you a heads up. And I do that all the time with my clients, and they're very, very understanding. I've had clients wait like weeks, like a good couple of, if they have the time. I mean, if it's not a thing where you have to do a live session and it has to be done yesterday, but I've had some clients that have been able to wait a couple weeks, push things out because they value the product. They value the product that I give to them. And so, again, I think that that's something that to alleviate any kind of fear, work on those relationships, nurture those relationships, and yeah. You're gonna be fine. What other things, Lau, do you think voice talent are afraid of these days? Lau: Uh, well, I would say, uh, many voice talent create a healthy fear of doing jobs or taking copy that they would consider to be outside of their wheelhouse. They would consider to be not as comfortable for them. If they're like, let's say they're commercial talent, and they're typically doing commercial work and that's what they do. Sometimes they're not as open to the idea of doing, say character work or animation. 'Cause they say, I don't really do that. That's not in my wheelhouse. Or, I don't really do a lot of narration work. I'm not that kind of actor. I'm not that kind of person. Or they'll even say, I'm not an actor at all. I'm just a voiceover talent. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: Right. It's so funny to me to say that because I consider every voice of talent an actor to some degree. Anne: Absolutely. Me too. Lau: But there is a fear of auditioning or submitting for jobs that are not within your branding or not within the kinds of jobs that you're typically getting. Like something bad will happen. They'll, they won't hire me and they'll call, call me a bad talent. I get, I won't get work in other areas as well. That's a fear. Anne: Yeah. I think absolutely, to stretch yourself outside of your comfort zone. And there's lots of great coaches out there that can help you if you want to explore a different genre and get good at that genre. And even with auditions, I always try to go with my gut when I see auditions and I say, okay, that feels like it's my wheelhouse. But yeah, every once in a while I'll look at an audition, I'll say, well, what the heck? Let's give it a shot. And it's so funny because a lot of times the ones that I just say, well, let me give me a shot, surprisingly, I'll do well or I'll get the gig. And so I think, you know, stretching outside of your comfort and you click that send and you're like, oh my God, I hope again, if you ever had one of those turn around on you, I think that would give you the confidence to stretch yourself outside of your comfort zone. I'm gonna name something else that I'm pretty sure a lot of talent, even talent that have been around for a while and have done this for a while, is negotiating a job if they don't have an agent on their behalf. Right? Or raising their rates. Right? Or sticking to their rates. Lau: Wait a second, that's the best ever. Anne: Right, right? Lau: Especially for women, but yes. Yes for everyone. Anne: And people always say to me, well, I don't know what to charge. Okay. First of all, we are entrepreneurs, right? I mean, in reality it is our business. And so it is up to us, unless we've got an agent working on our behalf, but for any other jobs, let's say I do a lot of non-broadcast, e-learning, corporate, you know, explainer, that style where I work directly with the client, and half the time, of course I have guidelines, right? There's always the GVAA rate guide, there's my own guidelines that I've been working with since I started. But if this is something new or it's slightly different and there's nothing, there's no standard written, I'm pretty much pulling that price out of the air, out of the air. Lau: Out of the hat. Anne: Out of the hat. And I'm always kind of verging on more than I think because I wanna start the negotiation high so that I can come down to the price where I feel like would be fair. And so, just so you know, we can be in this business for, I've been in the business for like, gosh, oh my God, 16 years already. And sometimes I'll have a price that I'll just have to pull out a thin air. And I'm guessing at it. And so know that, guys. I don't want you to think that all the pricing is all secure and within a chart. Sometimes I am just winging it. And once you get the client that says, okay, great, that sounds, when can you have it by then? That gives you the confidence to just continue on the negotiation battle. So always, always know that you are worth money. Please do not negotiate a low rate because you feel that you're new or that you feel that you don't have the experience because you have invested in your business and therefore you are worth the money. And so, yeah. Lau: And you said the magic word, invest. I was thinking there's a fear of investment. Anne: Mm. Oh gosh, yes. Yes. Lau: I'm terrified. Not me, really. I'm just saying I'm terrified of spending money on coaching or scared of spending too much money on my studio, or I'm afraid of how much a microphone will cost. And there's a lot of fear around, how much do I need to invest? And you have to think of it like, is it a cost or is it an investment? Is there an ROI in this? Am I really expecting money to come back? Or is this just a sinkhole of just like throwing money in where I don't know what's gonna happen at the end of the day? So having vision about my investment and my return, and really being very mindful that that's what I want to have happen. Does it mean it will happen? No. But what it means is you're focusing your brain and you're focusing your intentional energy on that execution. So it's more likely that you'll have a positive outcome than going, but I'm afraid. I'm afraid I don't have the money, and I'm afraid, I'm afraid. So that was one thing. You know, the other thing too that came to my mind, Anne, was success. Anne: Oh my gosh. Lau: A lot of people are afraid of success. Anne: Totally agree with you there. And I, and I wanna just say like for myself personally, right? There comes a time --you cannot grow -- I can attest to this, you cannot grow without investment and you cannot grow without a little bit of fear. And so the investment for me has come to the point where I am one person. I can only physically do so many things within the 24 hours of the day. Right? And so when I want to grow beyond that, then I have to think about outsourcing. I have to think about that as an investment in my business so that somebody can help free up some time for me so that I can do more voiceover jobs. I can coach, or I can do whatever it is that I wanna do to grow my business. And then I have to be at the point where I say, all right, I have this level of success that I'm at now. I feel comfortable. I'm able to support my household. I'm feeling good. And just when it hits that point, I say, all right, what's next? Right? How am I going to grow? How am I going to expand? And I'm always get to these levels, right? And I always try to address it. I'm gonna say on an average quarterly, right? Within the year, what's next for me? And I right now am at this point right now where, what's next? And so I know what has to come next for me in order to continue to grow. I think about it, I'm like, okay, I have to go through a series of steps to get there and it's gonna be a lot of work. And I just go, oh God, I had so much work, but I have to get through it. Once I get through it, I can then bump myself up another level. Right? So I just consider myself going up that stairway to more success. And so I know it's coming up the road for me ahead, and I know that it's going to be a lot of work, and it makes me tired right now. But I do know that if I don't do it, I will not grow, and I will not succeed further. And to me, I always love a good challenge, I think, I think the one thing for me, why I love entrepreneurship and why I love this business so much is that it allows us to just go as high as we absolutely can. There's no limit, right? Lau: Yeah. Anne: There's no limit. I mean, and, and that's the thing. You have to allow yourself to think big and to think, wow, there really isn't a limit to how much I can grow. And to me's a game. It becomes a game. You know, a challenge. And I love a good challenge. For me, that's how I get through it, instead of the fear, right? I consider it to be a challenge and a game. And it's a game that I play with myself. So I'm not in any sort of danger of necessarily hurting other people because it's me. It's a game I play against myself. I mean, that's out of myself and working myself to craziness. But that's my whole goal, is to not have to work so much. And so that is going to help me to grow. Lau: Right. And who's keeping score? I mean, at the end of the day, it's really about, you. You're keeping score. You're the one who's setting your goals, how you wanna achieve throughout the year and throughout your quarters. You're really the one who's paying attention to that because it's skin in the game. You have the most vested interest in the success of your business. And I always say, be careful what you wish for. You may get. Because if you get it, meaning if you get that job that you're auditioning for, you get that creative studio that you always wanted, well, now what's next? It doesn't mean you can lay back and chill and bask. It means like you have to push a little more. You have to move a little faster. You have to intensify your goals. In a sense that ceiling is just not even there. It doesn't even exist. Anne: Exactly. Exactly. It just keeps moving up. So. Lau: Keeps moving up, right? Keeps moving up. Anne: Yeah. Love it. Great conversation. So BOSSes out there, face those fears. Fear is good. I believe fear, it leads to growth. Education, knowledge is power. And know that you're not alone. Lau: I love that. You're never alone. Even when you're in your booth, you're never alone. Like who are you connecting to? You're always connected to someone who also has your vested interest in mind because they wanna have a successful product, they wanna have a successful process, and they want to have a relationship with you. So always consider the positive versus the negative, and that's gonna help you alleviate those fears along the way. Anne: Yeah. Well, great discussion. BOSSes. Fear, you can conquer. We have the faith in you. So I'd like to give a great big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can network and connect like a BOSS and conquer those fears. Find out more at ipDTL.com. And also from our other sponsor, 100 Voices Who Care, here's a chance for you to use your voice to make an immediate difference in our world and give back to the communities that give to you. Visit 100voiceswhocare.org to find out more. All right, guys. BOSSes, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye. Lau: Bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Nothing in this industry happens fast. You have to trust that things will happen when they're supposed to. In this episode, Anne & Lau share how trust can help you build your business and a strong, reliable network. Don't sabotage relationships before they even begin—if someone shows interest in working with you, take their word at face value and don't let fear of failure keep them at arm's length! Give yourself permission to learn and make mistakes along the way so that you can grow as an artist and a person. We all want our business to succeed, but sometimes things don't go as planned. That's ok! Negative experiences should teach you something and give you an opportunity for growth. Bosses, don't worry. You can trust Anne & Lau to lead you in the right direction. Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS Podcast and the Business Superpower series. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza, and I have with me Lau Lapides. Woo! Lau: Hey everyone. Good to see you, Anne. Anne: Special guest, co-host. Oh my gosh, Lau, I have had the best time having you as co-host. Lau: I love it. I think you and I are like sisters from another mother. I love it. I think we got so much to talk about. So much to say. We have a great rapport. Anne: We do. We do. And you know what? I really have a lot of trust in you, and that is something that I feel, when people are starting off in the industry, they need to find someone to trust, a tribe, a coach, a mentor, in order to help them get through the process. And I think trust is a huge ask for the talent, but I think it's absolutely necessary for success. Lau: It is. I mean, you have to trust someone at some point in order to further your education and further your career. And really be able to also kind of ignite personalized relationships where you're forecasting to people, the right people, well-selected people, that you're gonna share thoughts that are authentic. You're gonna be helpful in their journey. You're gonna share things that are uncomfortable. I mean, that's really how we gain trust. And it doesn't happen overnight. It really is time. It takes time to gather trust. Anne: Yeah. And I think a big factor in trust is obviously the fear that seems to be very prevalent when people start off in this industry. The fear that they're not good enough, they're not gonna be successful. And I think it leads them to just not trust in themselves, not trust in other people they might have worked with or people on the internet. And I understand that in a lot of ways where you've gotta be careful, but I feel as though if you have a member of the tribe, you've got to just invest in that trust, to hope that they're guiding you in the right direction. Now, that is not to say that you should not educate yourself, right, so that you know who you can trust. Right? And kind of feel your way around that. And if you do not trust, I feel that it's going to inhibit you from being successful in the industry, because otherwise you're not gonna have someone that's gonna help build you back up or build your confidence up when you're feeling low, when maybe you're not getting the jobs that you're expecting. And I think a lot of times people make a big investment, let's say, in coaching or in a demo, or workshops, whatever they do. And immediately if they don't get a job, because they're not familiar enough with the industry, they immediately question themselves. They question the capabilities for anything and immediately feel like they need to get a return on their investment in the next week. Which I wish I had gotten a return on my investment in the following week after I did my training. But this is a process. And not only do you have to trust in yourself, you've gotta trust in the process. And that means researching coaches, researching talent out there in the industry that seem to have had some level of success. Reading -- I'm all about reading, reading, reading -- reading books, joining web forums, and finding out who are the respected people in the industry. And doing that education first. I mean, I know in the beginning when you first start coaching and creating a demo, and there's lots of people that talk about, oh, there's scammers out there that are gonna take all your money and create a demo, and then it's not gonna be a good demo, or it's not gonna be a professional demo. And I think that a lot of people are scared about that. But I also think that you can take the matters into your own hands. And again, research, research, research, research, join groups, read books, find the people that are well respected in the industry. Lau: Absolutely. I do think there's a level of trust that you have to have in yourself that is a leap of faith. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: Okay. So let's say you're starting out, Let's say you're doing your research, you're reading, you're in the industry mags, and you know what's going on with conferences and you know what the best practices are, so to speak. But you need time to have that reveal itself, right? What we see and what we read and what we know and what we hear isn't always our truth through our own experiences. So you have to trust that you are smart enough, you're motivated and thoughtful enough. You're focused enough that you're gonna start to put your trust, engage who that tribe is as you put it together, and not get upset when you put your trust into something or someone and it doesn't work out, because that is called experience. And experience is not always happy and fun and positive. Sometimes it's making a mistake. And we have to learn from those mistakes. We have to work through those and not make those again and say, wow, I'm glad I made that mistake, because now I know it doesn't work and what I shouldn't be trusting in the industry, and really move through it. But if we never give our trust anything, if we're never 100% all in and know that we've got skin in the game, then we never really tested our theories, our methodologies, and our teachings. We never really tested it because we weren't willing to give it over 100% to see what great things can come of it. Now, I don't know about you, but like you're super successful. I'm successful. A big part of that success is testing, hit or miss experimentation. And what happened to the joy of trying things, of experimenting? Anne: Absolutely. Lau: It's like so many people need to have this guarantee from the start. What I'll save. Anne: The safety net. It's like the trophy. They need the trophy. Right? They need the trophy right away. And the thing of it is, is, and Lau, you and I have spoken about this, my overnight success took me many, many, many years. Right? And if you're just getting into the industry and you're upset because you're not booking a week after you submitted your demo or started auditioning, trust in the process, give it time. When I talk with my students, I try to tell them that it is not an overnight process, that it does take time. But I still feel as though some people just have to live that or experience that. There's a lot of people who never get past the making a demo stage, because I believe they do not trust in the process. They don't give themselves enough of a chance to grow and to grow into the industry and start to see that success, which is not gonna happen tomorrow. I'm sorry, you're not gonna get that prize gig tomorrow. And it's okay. It is okay. You just need to again, have trust, have faith in yourself. I'll tell you what, Lau, I am a big believer, and anybody's listening to this podcast knows that I trust my gut. I live my life by my gut. And I run my business by my gut too, believe it or not. If it doesn't feel right, then I'm taking more steps to educating myself on to maybe why it doesn't feel right or what I might do to change it. As you mentioned before, just kind of take those little steps and change direction if you need to. Lau: That's right. That's exactly right. And just be okay with that. Be okay with not knowing. Be okay with sometimes trusting the wrong person or the wrong process or whatever, because that's how we grow, that's how we learn, that's how we shape it up. The problem comes in where you trust something, it doesn't work your way, and then you keep trusting it, and you keep trusting it. And you never learn from that pro -- You don't redirect and pivot. Anne: Or -- yeah, exactly. You don't redirect or pivot or you simply let it scare you away. Right? Because you've been burned once. Lau: Yeah, or shut you down. Anne: I will have students that have come to me that have not had positive experiences with coaches or their demo production or whatever it might be, and it will make them very shy and very wary to continue moving on. And I always say, use those experiences, like it's okay, like you said, it's okay to maybe the person that you thought you trusted didn't turn out to be what you thought. Right? It's okay, learn from it. Turn that into a positive experience and learn from that and grow from that. And so I'm always trying to tell people don't beat yourself up over it. I mean, honestly now you know. And so boom, that was a wonderful lesson. I'm always trying to learn lessons from things that didn't go quite right or what people might perceive to be failures. And I don't even like to think of the word failure. I just say, oh, okay, well that didn't work out. So what can I learn from that's, and how can I grow from that? And that will turn most of those experiences into a positive one for me so that I can continue to grow and progress forward. Lau: That's right. And be smart about how you trust. It's not about just, I trust this. I'm putting my trust in this. It's like, how do I trust? That famous presidential, you know, trust, but verify. Verify. Meaning do the due diligence, do the homework, make sure as best as you can, is this person who they say they really are? Is this process what it really represents? Is there testimonial? Are there accolades? Are there honors that I should be aware of that build the ethos, build the credibility so I can trust even more? I wanna do some verification. It doesn't mean that I'm putting them in the hot seat under a light bulb, duct taping them to a chair and grilling them. It just -- right? You and I've both been through that a lot. Right? Anne: Exactly. Lau: You know, like a whole FBI scene. It's not that, but there is an intelligence in saying, let me do some background check. Let me just Google, like everyone has Google. Why can't you just go on Google and see, is this person have bad reviews or seem dangerous or I don't know. But the point is, do that little bit of homework to verify, to make you feel that much more comfortable in who you're starting to put your trust into. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. And if you cannot take that little tiny leap of faith and then see where that goes, right, and grow from it, you're gonna be stagnant and you're gonna sit there with demo in hand and never really progress any further. Lau: That's right. Anne: But I will say over and over again, and you as -- Lau, with an agency in, in casting for so long, you must know how long it can take when somebody's first getting out into the industry to actually start being consistent in booking jobs. And even when you are consistent in booking jobs, every one of us has a time where there might be a lull in our business and really that is the place when you feel, oh my gosh, why am I not getting any work? I must suck. You know what I mean? Or that's it. I've gotta get out of the industry and they panic. Right? So many people panic and just trust the process. Again, find those people that you do trust that can help you through those times where you are starting to mentally -- I think the mental panic here can really be something that inhibits successful voiceover actors. And sometimes they'll say, well, alright, that's cool because more work for me. Lau: Yeah. . Absolutely. There's an ebb and flow to everything. You know? There's ebbs and flows, highs and lows to every single business out there. It's not possible to be super successful in making tons of money every single day or getting jobs every single day. That would be an unrealistic expectation. Anne: Lau, let me stop you right there. I love that you brought that up lot. Do you think that the majority of talent book something every single day? Lau: , I don't know anyone that books something every single day. Anne: Yeah. Lau: I just don't know anyone. And I know a lot of really busy VO talent that are recording all the time, but are they booking every single day? No, they're not. Anne: Yeah. Lau: They're editing, they're catching up, they're marketing, they're doing retakes, they're visiting their mom and dad, you know, but they're not booking every single day. That would be -- Anne: Right? Lau: I won't say impossible, but I'll say it's highly improbable. Anne: Even people that are working every day, let's say you're, you know, in the promo genre or that kind of thing, where they say there's the golden handcuffs. Right? You are probably working, right, that same network job that just comes in every single day. I'm on a lot of telephone rosters, so I work every single day doing telephony, but it's because I'm on a roster that I expect that work, and I know that work's coming. Lau: That's right. Anne: But acquiring new work and getting new clients every single day, I agree with you. I don't know many people -- I think it's highly unlikely. And so that's one, I think misconception that people new to this industry might have. Like, oh, well, okay, I need to make so much. I remember constructing it like this, I would like to make so much money per month. Right? $10,000 a month. So what would it take to make $10,000 a month? Right? For 12 months, that's your six figures salary. So what will it take to book $10,000 a month? Well, if I could book 10 corporate jobs in the month, right, and do that consistently, then yeah, I'll have no problem. Now that may or may not happen for a while. Right? That could happen very sporadically. You could get a few corporate jobs. You could get 10 jobs, 20 jobs in one month, but maybe the following month you may get one. And so because of that difference, right, in terms of consistency, that is where I think most people start to panic and lose their trust in the process of what this industry is all about. And again, it's kind of life as a freelancer, I like to say entrepreneur, right? But freelancer is the same thing. Right? So we don't know where our next job is coming from. And that really has to be where your trust in the process lies, or trust in a mentor, trust in your people that you talk to in your accountability group. Trust that the process will work out and that it will be okay. Lau: And the truth is, we don't see what's happening in the background of anyone's world. So those folks that you're perceiving are booking every day have tons of work in the pipeline. So they're lining up the pipeline of work like last year, like five years ago. Like it's not the booking of today that they're reaching out today; it's the reach out oftentimes from months, if not years ago, that are just landing through and coming through on their pipeline. So in essence, they've done the footwork -- Anne: They've planted the seeds. Lau: -- done the preliminary work, they planted those seeds to keep that pipeline full so that it looks to the outside world like they're booking every day. And you know, the other thing I want to say too, Anne, was that the trust of everything -- when I think about how many of our systems in our world are on trust systems, like even just going into a restaurant, you're ordering food and drink and all this stuff, and they are trusting you that you have money to pay for that. They're giving you the product first and saying, devour this, you're never gonna give this back to us. We know it and we're gonna trust that you're gonna pay for that. Right? So we live in this trust system where we're providing a product, we're providing a service and we haven't been paid for anything. We're just trusting that if I have an agent, they're gonna work for me to get that money. If I don't, I'm gonna work with that client, and I'm gonna have that professional faith that they're gonna send me a check. Anne: And you have to have faith, yes, that your agent's gonna be doing that work for you. And let's say if you did not book through an agent, right -- I negotiate a lot of work myself -- I actually will have stated in my quote, prepayment is preferred, especially if they're a new client, an electronic payment, by the way. But if I am working with a big client and I issue an invoice, I am trusting that they're going to pay me within the the 30, 60, sometimes 90 days. Lau: That's right. Anne: And that is a trust in the process. Lau: That's right. And it's scary. Anne: Yeah. Lau: It's really scary because once in a while it doesn't happen. Anne: Yep. Lau: Once in a while we get burned. And I'm just here to tell you guys, if you get nothing out of this podcast, just know that in your lifetime there will be times that you will get burned, and not to let that jade or make it simple (?) or scare you. You just know that sometimes you run into a bad situation. And what do you learn from that? What did you take away from that? Anne: Exactly. Lau: What do you know now? Rather than getting angry and bitter, I'm gonna get better from that situation. Anne: Absolutely. Absolutely. Lau: But most situations are just not gonna be that. They're just not. They're gonna be trustworthy. Anne: And I think there's just the trust in so many things that you don't even think about. Right? I had trust in the technology, Lau, on that last podcast that it was gonna record us and it didn't. But that's okay. I'm not bitter. I am not bitter. We learned from that, didn't we? Right? So now we know what to do. Yeah. Now we know what to do. You know, it happens all the time. So I know that just seemed like a silly little example, but it was a true example of us turning that into a learning lesson. And I'm actually grateful that it happened because now I know what to do to alleviate it from happening again. And I'm grateful for that. Lau: And watch this, Anne. I'm actually gonna demo what the listener can do when they're in a situation where they're ethos -- I love using the word ethos. It's like a character building trust that we build as people and as professionals. When they feel it lowering, it's going down just a little bit. Because something wrong happens, something bad happened. So in the moment you could make a decision by saying something, and I'm really gonna say this to Anne, but demo it in front of the listening audience. I'm gonna say, Anne, that happened because that was my fault on our side. We didn't realize we weren't going through Chrome as we typically do. We somehow lost our Chrome app, and we just logged right into the link without remembering that we have to go through Chrome to record on Riverside. So what does that cause? There's a cause and effect to that whole trust system. Anne now has to go to her engineer and pay them a little extra to fix that and save that problem. So how do we restore trust? Anne: There you go. Lau: Because the morality, the morality is I am going to offer to pay that engineer to do that because that shouldn't be on you. Because that was on our end. That was our fault. It wasn't intentional; it was just a mistake. But see, this is how you wanna treat your peeps, your friends, your colleagues, your fellows. Whether they accept it, that's up to them. But to have the due diligence that saying, oh, too bad, I made a mistake. Go figure it out. It's like, well no, let me sort of rectify that. Let me see if I can offer something to make that better, to repair that. Is it life or death? Not life or death, but in the course of your relationships, attention to detail is really, really important. And when things go wrong and you make a mistake, 'cause we're just human beings, try to rectify it. Try to fix it, try to offer. Anne: Well, that's a wonderful example. And I like that. And I'll see you that offer because I appreciate the offer. Right? Our relationship, I value our relationship and I appreciate that offer. But I have already put that into my learning bin, right, where I've learned where I need to make sure that my guests on the podcast need to make sure they're going through Chrome in order to record the video and the audio. So that's great. So I politely decline and say thank you for the offer. But yeah, it's, it's a thing. And so I feel good about it. And so I want BOSSes who are just getting out into the industry and feeling scared or having expectations that may or may not correspond with what's actually happening to understand that, number one, just put that trust in it. If it doesn't turn out the way you expect, make sure that you think about what it is that you can do to learn from that. Lau: Absolutely. There's a learning curve in everything. Even if it's highly uncomfortable, something really bad occurs, whatever, just take the learning lesson and walk away and say, good. Now I'm gonna take this into my future relationships. I'm gonna know who I can work with and who's not appropriate to work with. And just move on from it. And that will ensure your level of trust in the next person. In other words, you won't be carrying your garbage, you won't be carry your trash from what went wrong here into the future. Anne, I think we're doing therapy. I think this is gonna save a lot of marriages to be honest with you. Right? 'Cause you wanna carry your last boyfriend's garbage into the new boyfriend's garbage. Anne: That's right. That's right. Lau: Yeah? You wanna -- Anne: That's right. Lau: -- have a clear slate. That person, that client if you will, or that colleague, they have a right to earn your trust fully. It's not fair to them to place all the stuff -- because you were telling me earlier that you had a client that was having some trust issues about your services and this and that. And I'm thinking, oh, this reminds me so much of people who come in, you don't know where they're coming in from, and they just came in from all these bad relationships and experiences and they're putting it right onto you. Anne: Yep. Yep. Exactly. Lau: How do you handle that, Anne, when that happens? Anne: That's a great question. There's only so much -- I like to say, well, you know what, it's their movie, right? And so I can't let that affect me in any kind of a way or inhibit my growth. And so I will just say, well, it's their movie. They're directing it and I can help as much as I can. Just reinforce that things do not necessarily happen a day after you start in this industry and that you need to trust in the process. And other than that, other than giving that advice, I don't know of much else that I can do except to say, you know what? I'm here if you need me in the future, that's absolutely fine. I'm happy to help you through that. But I feel like if you want help and then you step back 'cause you got scared, right, then there's no other way I can really help you anymore at that point. It's gotta be your decision. Lau: That's right. And maybe that's the time, Anne, when you, and I would say to that client, you know, it's okay if this is not a good fit for you, if you need to go somewhere else. Anne: Yep. Absolutely. Lau: Right? IE you should go somewhere else. Anne: Right. Lau: To work with someone that perhaps you have more trust in or whatever -- Anne: Or not. Lau: It's okay to give them permission to go. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Lau: Like not every client's a good client. Not every contract's a good contract. Not every job should be kept. Anne: Absolutely. And I think understanding and trusting in that gut feeling or that process again can help you to clear your mind. I like to have all positivity in my business and in my transactions and negotiations and so that will help me to clear that. Lau: Absolutely. I got one more from the road. Anne: Okay. Lau: And the one I just thought of in terms of like fear and trust, 'cause they're entwined, they're they're entangled together is like the fear of not being able to trust because it's going to go bad. So in other words, it's like the Murphy's Law thing. Like I'm projecting it's not gonna go well, I'm projecting problems will happen. Manifesting. Projecting. And then it does. And then it inevitably does because you're sabotaging it. Anne: And that's the energy that you are focusing on. Absolutely. Lau: Yeah. 'Cause you're not wanting to trust or not capable of it yet or whatever. So you're gonna give it a purpose and a justification for why you can't trust it. Be careful of that. Self-sabotage kills a lot of relationships. Anne: Absolutely. Wow. Well guys, BOSSes out there, learn to trust. Take those bitty, bitty steps. Trust and learn. That's the moral I have of the story today. . Lau: Learning is good. Anne: All right. All right. So BOSSes, I'm gonna give a great big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. Also, if you want to make a big impact and have a very simple mission, you can find out more at 100voiceswhocare.org. All right, guys. BOSSes, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye. Lau: Bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.