Raising your rates as a voice actor can be a daunting task, but it doesn't have to be. In this episode, Anne & Lau discuss tips for approaching money conversations with clients, moving past the fear around charging what you're worth and deciding when to raise your rates. It's important that you know what your time is worth and what kind of value your clients are getting from working with you. Your voice is an asset. By taking charge of these conversations & setting your rates accordingly, you can make sure that your business is running smoothly. Your clients want to work with someone who knows their own value and isn't afraid of asking for it. And if you need someone to talk you through the process, keep on listening… Transcript It’s time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry’s top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let’s welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone, welcome to the VO BOSS podcast and the business superpower series with my special guest co-host Lau Lapides. Hey Lau. Woo-hoo! Always so wonderful to see you. Lau: Always great to be back. . Anne: Well, Lau it's a change of seasons and so I'm feeling like I've gone back and reflected upon my business, and it is the time of year where I make the consideration, do I want to raise my prices or not? And what a great discussion Lau, because it is so difficult. How do you raise your prices? How do you raise your rates? And how do you go about doing that with clients that you've had for years or new clients for fear of, oh my gosh, your rates are too high, or rates are too low. I thought it would be a wonderful thing to discuss today on how we can raise our rates, because as businesses, we need to be profitable, right? For the majority of us in this industry, we would like it to be a business and not a hobby. And so to be a business, we need to yield a profit and to yield a profit, that includes pricing yourself. So let's start with you. Talk to me about, first of all, how do you set your prices for your particular voiceover jobs, acting jobs? What do you do first in order to set a fair rate for yourself or a fair price to yourself? Lau: The question of the year, I say -- Anne: Isn't it though? Lau: Not even of the day, but of the year. I can hear all of your listeners. The BOSSes are moving a little bit closer, and listening closer. Now, it's a great conversation to have. So I really am thrilled that we're having it today. In my opinion, there's a lot of fear around this conversation. There's a lot of apprehension, a lot of almost terror, I'd say, in really giving yourself as a person and also your brand, as a business, a price tag. That's very difficult for people's brains to get around, especially creatives who are artists and women can have a tough time with that as well. Anne: Oh yeah. Lau: And I think everyone can have a tough time as they move through their business, not just in early stages either. Like, people that are at 10, 15, 20 years into the biz having challenges with this topic. I myself have had many challenges through the years. I think one of the first things that, when we take a step back and we look at the whole fee structure of what we are doing, we have to ask ourself what is our worth? What is our value? And it's not, not a simple, oh, this is what I'm worth and this is my value. It's really something to journal about, something to think deeply on, to converse with people you know and trust, and to do some market research, to really go into the market, say, this is our industry, this is my space. The more I niche down in my space, the more I can research the industry going rates, and really just document that. I would take a little bit of time and document that and update that like every six months to a year, just update. Anne: Sure. Lau: Every six months to a year, get knowledgeable. Anne: So starting what the industry rates are. And so I totally agree with you there. In order for you to raise your rates, you have to set your rates. And so that's the question, number one is before you can raise them, how do you set them? And I think a great reference point is, and we've mentioned this multiple times on the podcast, is the rate guides. GVAA has a fantastic rate guide, Gravy for the Brain has one, SAG-AFTRA has their rates posted. So that's a great benchmark to start to set your rates. And I think we've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it again, whether you are new to the industry or you've been in the industry for 20 years, you can price yourself at the standard rate. Just because you're new doesn't mean that you have to price yourself at a lower rate than somebody who's been in the business for 15, 20 years. Because in essence, it actually helps the industry if you are pricing yourself at a fair going rate according to the rate guides. Lau: I would agree with that. Totally agree with that. You took the words out, right outta my head. I was about to say, you almost do the industry in injustice when you go too far low and too far below what the industry rates are. Even though there may be times where you do that and you choose to do that, you need to do that and that's okay. But as a running rule, you wanna stay at the industry rates or above because you wanna drive the market up. You don't wanna drive the market down. Anne: Exactly. Lau: We oftentimes hear the sayings like it's a race to the bottom. What that really means is like we're all excited about working. We wanna get as much work as we can, charge them anything and just get anything for the business. And I think that there's a time and place for that. But for sustainability and longevity of a business, it just doesn't work. It does not work in any way. And you are devalued. You're immediately devalued in the eyes of that prospect client. So to really sit down and say, okay, whether I'm starting out or whether I'm running my business, you and I have been running our businesses for 15-plus years, is to say, what is my value today? How has that changed from a year ago? How have we grown? What are my products? How have I niched my products? And what are those products valued at in the market today? I would start there. That's a good start right there. And then to start thinking about time. What does time mean to you? How much value is your time? How valuable is your time? What's your worth? Your knowledge, your ethos, your education -- Anne: Your experience. Lau: Your experience, right? It's, that's where the subjective force comes in. What makes me unique? What's my value proposition different from others in the space doing similar work, helps establish that value. Anne: Well, I think also one thing that helps us as freelancers is that I like to break it into different categories. You have the new clients, the ever evolving, I guess, cycle of new clients that come along. And for that, it's easy to set a rate or raise your rate. Okay? Because they've not had previous experience with you. So in a way that makes it easier for us to either celebrate or raise our rates. And it is up to us though, to take that step to do that. I mean, I myself was guilty for back in the beginning, keeping my rates, keeping my rates, keeping my rates until I felt that I had built my business up enough to warrant raising my rates. But I do feel that every year is a great time to reevaluate your rates, and the economy too. You've gotta take a look at the economy. Now, we've got so many different things happening at this point in our industry. We have the evolving economy, which is not doing great right now. So is it a good time to raise my rates? Right? We've got that to consider. What is the market willing to pay? What is the market willing to bear for a price of voiceover, especially now with synthetic voices looming on the horizon. So there's a lot of other factors that need to be taken into place, and if it wants to play into our fear, well, that's what does it for sure. Right? A lot of times the economy and other factors including competition from not only voice actors but now synthetic voices -- and so that just builds upon the fear. If you weren't scared before raising your rates, now we've got a couple, a couple extra things that are being thrown into the mix, but I will say that because we are freelancers and because we continually acquire new clients, this is a good time to be able to set or raise your rate for the new clients that come aboard. And you know what? Here's the deal. If you decide to set your rate higher than you normally do or raise your rate, what's gonna happen is you will see if the market will bear it, right? If people are gonna say, yeah, sure, that's great. And not question the rate. And so when that happens, there's nothing better than that, because that gives you the confidence to really go forth and raise your rates for all clients. So it's a great test bed when you get a new client to either set your rate higher or actually change your rate for the new clients. Now I like the whole grandfather clause where I've had a client for many years, and because they are a good client that continues to give me business, I will make a decision on an independent basis whether or not I will raise my rates for them. And then that becomes a different conversation, right? Because now that's where you've gotta like own up to saying, look, I appreciate you as a client, and I'm so thankful for the business and thankful for our relationship together. How do I say I'm going to raise my rights now? Lau: Ooh. Anne: Oh, there's the tough one. Lau: Ooh, snap. There's what she did. Well, everyone has a different thought process. And again, you took the words out of my head because the way I tend to run my business is I tend to show loyalty and allegiance to current clients and typically stay at the rates that they're at. You certainly don't have to. And there are many businesses that will go up in rates on current clients. I just haven't done that quite as much. I keep them at the rate, grandfather them in, have the blank slate on new people with a new pricing coming in. And typically there just isn't any conflict of interest with that. Oftentimes they don't even know the difference. They just see you coming in, and here's the interesting psychological value to that. All of a sudden you give a new pricing, and they may not flinch at all and say, oh, okay, great. And then you think, oh my gosh, I could have done that years ago. Anne: Yes. Lau: I could have done that years ago instead of playing all these psychological games with myself. To this person, the value is there. You are worth it. They're ready to go, and why wouldn't they pay that price? So I think to find good quality clients, the kind of clients that fit you, fit your business is so important. And to know that there are going to be clients that are not good for you; they're not good for you any longer, or they don't fit what your value is because they see it as a cost. Anne: Right. Right. Exactly. Lau: They don't see it as an investment. So I tend to use very strategic language when I speak to people. Is this your investment or is this a cost for you? And then educate them on what the difference is. And once they figure out that this is an investment, oh yeah, I'm glad you put it that way, then it is worth it to me. So sometimes it takes the little bit of education in there for them to shift their mindset to, well, you spent how much on a college education? You spent how much on your graduate degree? You spent how much on your online courses, what have you. Was that cost or was that investment? So this is the same thing. This is the same thing. Anne: I love that you say cost or investment, because I think that clients who look at it as an investment are absolutely going to see your worth much more readily than a client that sees it as a cost. And it's also important, I think, for us as actors and creatives to understand that our voice is an asset. And I know I say it, yes, your voice is an asset, but what does that really mean? Right? Your voice contributes to potential millions of dollars in sales , right, for a client. And sometimes I think we forget that. We become so far removed from the product, the end product that we are providing the voice for that we forget our worth in terms of that. So don't forget that your voice as an asset -- and this, I'll tell you what, I've learned this in my dealings with trying to talk to, let's say, synthetic voice producers or directors or companies that are producing synthetic voices -- to say that the voice is an asset, that it is worthy of compensation. It is worthy of fair compensation because that asset is what contributes to a company's brand. And don't forget that, BOSSes. Your voice contributes to a company's brand, which is no different than a marketing material or an on-air camera talent that gets paid a good amount of money to represent the brand of a company. So I think because we're in our studios, and we're like alone, we forget that somehow, that our voice really does contribute to a brand's value and a brand's ability to sell. Lau: That's right. Absolutely. And quick anecdote on that one, just this past week I have a, a new agent colleague from LA who opened an agency and she was calling me to check in on a contract that she's working on for voiceover, and she doesn't currently represent voiceover. And she was going through what would be a fair rate for this talent, and she kept saying over and over and over again, I mean, these people are making millions off of this. They're making millions off of this. And we're talking about the difference between like, they offered $350, $350, she went up to $1100. I said, why don't you offer at lea -- oh my god, 1500 is like still so incredibly -- and her, there was a fear factor in there. I could hear the fear slip in. I said, what's the worst that happens? Anne: They say, no. Lau: You slide, you do whatever you want to do and feel is right. But my goodness, the truth is it should be actually so, so, so much higher than that. She just didn't wanna start at such a high rate compared to what the original rate they were giving her. She didn't wanna slide so high. But the truth is, it's so outta whack, it's so outta bounds in terms of what a company may be doing with that brand and creating gross versus what the talent is being paid, which is nothing, pennies, literally less than pennies. Anne: There's something to be said for pricing yourself in such a way that it is value because you've priced yourself higher versus if you price yourself too low, then it's a perception of, well, okay, so that's a cheap price, right, for a cheap talent maybe. And that may or may not be the way that you want your brand to be perceived. So I always have said that I'm Tiffany's, right? I don't go on sale. This is my rate. And if a client chooses to accept that rate, then they are also accepting obviously that that is my worth and that I'm worth the value of that. And I think that if they don't, it's okay. You have time to go and find the people that will pay you the rate that you're worth and value that charge or your increase in price. And it's a difficult, difficult thing, especially when you attack it from, well, if I raise my prices, am I going to raise my prices for everyone? And I don't think you have to. I think as we've discussed it, I've got people that are grandfathered in, and each one of those clients that I've been working with for a certain amount of time, each gets a special consideration. Now, I might have worked with people for 10 years already at the same rate. And I think it makes it a whole lot easier when you propose to them that your rates, due to increased costs in running your business, your rates have to change. And this, for anybody that uses, let's say an audio editor for their work, and they're paying them as well, if they go up in price, and you're still charging the same, well, you've gotta recoup those costs somehow as a business. Lau: Exactly. Anne: I've got that. I've got people that I pay for services that are raising their prices on me. And as a business, I've gotta somehow figure out how am I going to accommodate that cost? Because as a business, I don't wanna lose profit on that because I wanna maintain or elevate my business. Lau: Right. And there is a huge credence to the philosophy that I wanna price myself above the market rate. Anne: Yeah, yeah. Lau: Not to get into like scamming or anything like that. Nothing negative. Like, oh, I just wanna make as much money as I can. No, no. You wanna say, listen, here's my price, here's my value, here's my investment, and I'm giving you, as you said, the Tiffany's approach. I'm giving you that Tiffany's approach. So you're investing in that, and that, that actually psychologically tells people that your worth is so high, it's so much higher. So it must be worth the cost of admission. So I'm going down that road, I've been going down that road for a number of years now, saying, yes, we are a slightly higher than the average studio. Yes, we are slightly higher, whatever, because here's the value prop X, Y, Z. That's what we do. That's what we give. You don't want that, then we're not the place for you. Anne: Right. Right. Lau: So yes, being able to walk away, being able to say, this business isn't gonna work, this client isn't gonna be good. They don't see the value, that's okay. I think that's fine. You know, you don't have to sort of tear for every single person who comes your way. They're not always gonna be the right ones for you. Anne: You bring up a good point there, and I've seen this as some discussion on the forums as well lately about some talent feeling that they have a need to school their clients on a fair price. And there's a way to do that that is respectful of a client. I think, again, you have to really put yourself in the client's shoes. Not all clients are in direct control of the money that can be paid for your services. Not all clients really do have the budget, and if they don't, I think it's well worth it for us to say or advise that you're not rude about it. Because not every company has the budget to pay voice services for whatever you might be commanding at the moment. So I think be careful when you are renegotiating with your clients back and forth for a rate. I think for me, when it's a new client and I'm negotiating a rate, I always start on the higher end, which makes it easy to negotiate down. I always leave an open space in my quote, and a lot of times that's in an email that says, please let me know if this fits within your budget. And that sentence alone pretty much just opens the door for negotiation. And so then a client can come back to me and say, well, I've only been allocated this much for the budget, and then I can work with that. So I always kind of shoot higher anyway. And so that kind of works within my, let's raise the rates this year. I think it's a conscious decision that you as a business person, right -- put the creative aside for a moment -- well, keep the creative to know what you're worth, but also put on your business hat and really put yourself in the position. Here's what I'm going to do, and stick with it and try to just get past that fear. I think that's the biggest thing that stops the majority of us from raising our rates or charging what we're worth in the first place. Lau: Yeah. I think you just have to do it. Like you have to go ahead and do it. Look, what's the worst that happens? It doesn't work. Anne: They say no. Lau: You can go back. You can go back, you can change your rates, make it lower. Like no one's holding you against a wall. You can do it, but you've gotta try it. I, this gets into negotiation, Anne, a little bit, but I would say it's very important to, once you give that number, once you give that fee, to stop talking. It's very important to give it, to have a sense of just like you would deliver copy and say, this is what we do for this investment company or for this healthcare. We help you, we give you health. This is what our fee is. Anne: Mm-hmm. And then wait. Lau: And then stop. Anne: Then wait. Say nothing. Lau: What do they say in sales? Like the first person who speaks loses. Anne: Exactly, that's true. Lau: Because our nature as caring people, many are artists I wanna say, but you know, we're the lowest, we're kind of cheap, and we're not gonna take, and to sort of justify and give excuses and tell you why we selected that fee -- don't do it. Don't succumb to that seductive force of wanting to explain or self-deprecate. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: Or say, I shouldn't be doing this and I don't know why I'm doing this, but hopefully it works for you, and I hope you can do this. Don't do it. Don't do it. Anne: Yeah basically -- Lau: Don't do it. Anne: Here's my price. Let me know if it fits within your budget. And then I wait. Lau: Yes. Anne: If you start to pursue it or act desperate in any way, then that's negotiation skills. And I'm so glad in a way that I had to develop those early on because when I first got into the business, I waited a long time before I pursued an agent. And so, so until then I was negotiating for narration, you know, non-broadcast work. And so that gave me a lot of confidence. I could try things out, I tried rates out. And it's funny because people will ask me, well, what do you charge for this? And I'll be like, I pulled that right outta my butt. I pulled that number right outta my butt. But honestly, this's where it comes half the time because I've got a basis. But I don't necessarily know this client. I try to validate the client first and see what other work they have and educate myself as much as possible and then give a number. And sometimes that number, there's no basis for that number other than it's just I took a benchmark and I priced it up a certain amount based upon my last experience. And basically it's all trial and error, and I've always left myself that window open for negotiation. And that experience has really, I think, educated me more than just about anything else in this industry, was the education of being able to negotiate. And so for that you play a lot of games and you fight a lot of fear. And it takes just a few times for things to work in your favor. Always ask the client if they have a budget in mind, because that budget can also help you to gauge pricing. I asked a client once what their budget was, and they're like, oh, I can't spend more than $3,000 for this. And I'm like, whoa. That was like three times what I was gonna quote. Lau: So much higher. Anne: That was three times higher than I was gonna quote. And I said, I think I can work with that . So that sort of thing can really give you confidence to understand where your worth is and then also where you might price and where you might start to raise your rates. So every year I say, take a look at what you're charging people, 'cause I have a base guideline, and by the way, I don't advertise it at all. I think that it used to be a thing where some people advertised their rates, and I think in that kind of a tactic, it's almost like if you're gonna advertise your rates, you're looking to get people who are trying to get the lowest cost. Here's my rates, I'll do a commercial for $100, or you know, a 60-second commercial for $100. And I think if you're gonna do that, then you're playing the wrong game there. You're playing the lowest bid wins, and you've kind of limited yourself in terms of profit that you can make by publishing your rates. So it's more of a custom boutique service if you say, contact me or if you're interested, here are my demos. If you're interested, contact me and then start the conversation. Lau: And that's exactly why it's important to stay quiet as much as you speak, because you're gonna pick up the cues of what that client is saying to you and you're gonna make your quick notes so that in your brain you can say, oh I can go hide her. I didn't realize that. Or I'm way too high. Am I willing to lose this client? Like you can start that conversation, that inner monologue going, if you're listening to the cues that are coming in. And there was one more point I wanted to make 'cause you said something so cool and that was about control yourself. Like control your emotions, control how you react to things. Here's the psychology of selling. Is that like nothing should get me upset is the truth. Everything should be objectified just enough so that whatever comes out of them is not really about me. They're talking about my business. So they're not -- so I'm not just like an actor. It's like if I don't get the job, it's not really about me, it's about what I'm offering is not really right for that role. Well, it's the same in business. They're not really talking about me. 'Cause guess what? They don't know me and they don't know me at all. I'm a stranger. They're talking about their perception of this whole business that they may not know anything about. Or they may have had a, a big history, they may have been burned, who knows? Like we don't know when they come in the room, what they've been through. They may have been through a lot. So you have to give them the benefit of the doubt that if they get irritated or angry or if they treat you inappropriately, you have to understand that they're coming in with a history. But don't fall into it yourself. Like we used to say in training, leave your trash at the door. You know what I mean? Like you, well you can pick it up on your way out, but don't put it in someone else's court. Because you lose your power when you do that. You talk about superpowers, it renders you incapable of diplomacy and neutralization, when you start to say, how could he say that about me? Or how could he downgrade me like that or whatever, you know? Anne: That's what it is. I think part of it is the emotional aspect of it and keep the emotions out of the business. Take it out. Lau: Take it out, take it out. Anne: It's so hard for us because our product is so personal to us. It is our voice. It is who we are. It is our brand. And so when we get treated by a potential client and them, I guess, diminishing our worth in terms of no, I can't pay that. Or no, that's not in our budget, we have to not take that personally because it's not about us; it's about business. Lau: That's right. Anne: And some clients literally don't have the budget and we have to just accept that and not be offended, not be angry. Lau: Mm-Hmm. And isn't it okay, Anne, that they don't want it, they don't like it, they don't agree with it? It's still a free country. You know what I mean? It's like they have a right to not think that's fair or to not wanna put the money into it. They have a right to do anything they wanna do. One technique that I use that I found just for my own sake, that preserves me in the process is whatever happens in terms of the fee structure and the negotiation and the chit chat, I always immediately redirect. If I hear something negative coming out, I immediately affirm it. I hear it, I hear you. And then I redirect it onto something positive, and nine times outta ten, it works really well. So like for instance, I say, oh, my fee is this for whatever, for a demo. And they go, oh my God, that's expensive. And I'll say, well, you know, it's an investment. You're, you're investing in your future, whatever. And they'll say, well, I don't know. I don't, I don't know. Let me think about that. I'll say, great, think about it. I'm here for you when you come back. And in the meantime, I appreciate you sharing your story with me. That was valuable to me. And they go, well, thank you. That's sweet of you to say that. And then the conversation is redirected. And I mean that, I'm not just saying it as a sales tactic. I mean it from Lau that I'm gonna walk away saying I may or may not close a client. But I heard a really interesting story and I learned something from that conversation, and now I know something about what I can't do or what I can't do. And so you have to have your takeaways too from the selling process. It's not just about the number, it's about I'm constantly reevaluating my own worth, reevaluating my own value, reevaluating how I view the business and perceive the human contact. And that's worth its weight and gold. Right? . Anne: Well, it's so funny that you say that. And I have multiple aspects of my business where I, I, I mean, it's not just about voiceover clients. I have coaching clients, I have demo clients, I have VO Peeps memberships, I have VO BOSS marketing that I sell to people. And I'm constantly having to, if people are like, well, they're on a subscription, and they decide that -- end of year, it's always the time when people reevaluate their expenses and they're saying, well, was it worth it or was it not? And so whenever I get those emails saying, well, I'm looking to cancel because you know, I'm not seeing the value, I will always have, thank you so much for your feedback. I'm grateful for it. Here's my thought. Here's my thought. Think of this, think of that. And here's the value that we're providing, and we appreciate you and the value, and let us try to work something out. And I'll usually do that once. And it's amazing how many times I can recoup someone by pointing out the value that they might have missed over the years or the month, or this is how we're bringing value to your brand. And so I think it's worth a shot rather than just saying, well, okay. I mean, I could just say okay and not care about it. But I'm always responding back with, thank you for your feedback. Thank you for your input. I appreciate that. I completely understand. It's hard at the end of the year for everyone. Here are some thoughts to consider. Lau: Perfect. Anne: And that is something that you can do for a client if you raise your rates with them. If they say no or they push back, you can say, thank you, I appreciate your feedback. And that's how you respond. Really, you have to just respond with grace. There's no other way really, and gratefulness for them being your client. But I say, yeah, stay firm with, here's my new rates. And I don't think that your rates should again, be outside of, you don't wanna go crazy and price yourself out of the market. I think that there's an acceptable range where you can raise your rates and it's not ridiculous. So I have vendors for me right now that are raising their rates and I have to figure out how I'm going to absorb that cost or raise my rates in return. Lau: That's right. Anne: But as voice talent, voice artist, voice actors, absolutely. I think it's worth at this point, or at whatever time, once a year to evaluate what you're charging and then consider whether it's time to raise your rates. Because we all need to progress. We all need to continue the profit, the economy, other things happen around us and we need to accommodate for that. Lau: Yes. If you work on your plan, you work on your action plan for the year or for the quarter, you'll know what you wanna be grossing, you'll know what you wanna be taking in, and you'll know how close or how far away I am from that based on the rates that I'm charging right now and the volume that I deal with. Anne: Look at the numbers, BOSSes. I know it's scary, but I think the first thing is look at the numbers. And I think that's probably the most scary thing for most of us, probably scarier than an audition or a gig that we really want. It's scarier to look at the numbers. What's your incoming, what's your outgoing, what are your rates now? And have the courage to step back, look at it, and raise those rates if you need to. So great conversation, Lau. Lau: Anne, can I throw in one more thing for the road? Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Lau: Because. I just thought of this and I know you're like this and I know I'm like this. I think we care so much and that's why we get scared. If we didn't care -- Anne: Makes sense. Lau: -- at all, we couldn't give a two hoots about what they think, whatever, we'll raise it sky high -- no, it's because we care and the good people deeply care about the people first. And so we're always regarding their feelings and how they view things and what, what makes life easier for them. And that's a wonderful trait to have. We just have to balance that with taking care of our selves as well. Anne: Absolutely. Great point. Thank you, Lau. Oh, great topic. Absolutely great topic. And I think we all need to address it at one point during the year in our careers. So I'd like to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect network and talk about money and rates like a BOSS. Find out more at ipdtl.com. And also I want you to know about a chance where you can use your voice to make an immediate difference in the world and give back to the communities that give to you. Visit 100voiceswhocare.org to commit. You guys, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye! Lau: See you then! Bye. Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.