The Unspeakeasy With Meghan Daum

If you’re a fan of The Unspeakable, you’re almost certainly a fan of Jon Ronson. When it comes to the subject of ruinous humiliation via mobs (online or otherwise) Jon’s 2015 bestselling book So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed is both a field guide and a sacred text. His 2017 podcast The Butterfly Effect, looked at the downstream effects of the pornogrpahy industry. It also circled around a theme that arises frequently in his work; the way a single moment or seemingly random choice by just one person can result in a massive cultural or political shift. Last year, in collaboration with the BBC, Jon created the podcast Things Fell Apart, an eight-part series telling the origin stories of some of our most contentious cultural battles, including the right to abortion, book banning in schools, and the mania known as the satantic pre-school panic. In this interview, Jon talks with Meghan about that podcast as well as his thoughts about “cancel culture” seven years since the release of So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed. He reveals what parts of the culture wars he’s still afraid to take on, why the Rachel Dolezal story felt like a missed opportunity for a meaningful examination of race, and why he got so burnt out on the whole subject a few years ago and had to take a break.  Paid subscribers to The Unsepakable’s new Substack page can hear a bonus version of this episode containing lots of extra content. Visit https://meghandaum.substack.com/ to get in on it! Guest Bio: Jon Ronson is the author of several bestselling nonfiction books, including So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed, The Psychopath Test, Lost At Sea, and The Men Who Stare At Goats. Most recently, Jon released the BBC podcast Things Fell Apart, named by The Observer as the number one audio show of 201. Before that came two Audible Original audio series, The Butterfly Effect (2017) and The Last Days of August (2019). Both went straight to number one in the U.S. and U.K. audiobook charts and were named by multiple critics as two of the best podcasts of recent years.

Almost two years ago, author William Deresiewicz visited The Unspeakable to talk about his book The Death Of The Artist: How Creators Are Struggling to Survive in the Age of Billionaires and Big Tech. It was an insightful and moving conversation about the near-impossibility of surviving as a working artist in a “creator economy." Many listeners wrote to Meghan to express their gratitude as well as their sorrow over the hard truths Bill laid out. Now Bill is back to talk about his new book, a collection of essays entitled The Death Of Solitude. The essays span more than a decade and cover everything from education to technology to friendship. Bill talks about why he wrote them as well as what it was like to revisit the work when the culture has changed so radically in such a short time. He also reflects on the intellectual shifts he’s experienced in the last few years as he discovered the world of heterodox podcasts and dissident journalists. A longtime contributor to outlets like The Chronicle of Higher Education and Harper’s, he's now begun writing for outlets like Quillette and Unherd. How did that happen? (Meghan may be partly to blame.) Guest Bio:  William Deresiewicz taught at Yale and Columbia before becoming a full-time writer in 2008. He is the author of the best-selling book Excellent Sheep: The Miseducation of the American Elite and the Way to a Meaningful Life. He spoke with Meghan about his previous book The Death of the Artist on the November 9, 2020 edition of this podcast. His new book The End of Solitude: Selected Essays on Culture and Society, was just published by Henry Holt.

This week on the podcast, author and podcaster Sarah Hepola is back!  On her last visit to The Unspeakable, back in March, Sarah and Meghan talked about Sarah's bombshell Atlantic Magazine article, The Things I’m Afraid To Write. But they got a little sidetracked by some other subjects, including the barely-known details of the Stanford swimmer rape case, which Sarah has researched in depth. In this conversation, which was recorded exactly a week after the overturning of Roe v. Wade, Sarah talks about the immediate aftermath of that decision in Texas, where she lives, and why the alarm bells on social media don’t necessarily correspond to the actual mood on the ground. She reflects on her own choices and wonders if those who will now be forced to become parents will find their positions change—in both directions—as the result of their circumstances. Finally, she and Meghan reflect on being called “neocons” by someone on Twitter and wonder what happened around 2014 that caused some of the freest and most privileged women in the world to reimagine their lives as a chronic struggle.    Note: The Unspeakable Podcast will be on summer hiatus until Labor Day. In the meantime, you can check out Meghan’s new podcast with Sarah Haider, A Special Place In Hell, at aspecialplace.substack.com or wherever you get your podcast. You can also learn about The Unspeakeasy, Meghan’s community-in-progress for freethinking women at theunspeakeasy.com    Guest Bio: Sarah Hepola is the author of the memoir Blackout, the host of the Texas Monthly-produced documentary podcast America’s Girls and the co-host, with Nancy Rommelmann of the podcast Smoke 'em If You Got Em. She lives in Dallas, Texas.

This week’s episode is the second of a two part series about guns in America, a conversation between two people with very different feelings about the issue. Melanie Jeffcoat is an actor, filmmaker and gun control activist who lives in Alabama. Jon Godfrey is a retired law enforcement officer who’s a staunch defender of the Second Amendment and lives in upstate New York. In 2018 they were part of Guns: An American Conversation, a collaboration between TIME Magazine and a consortium of local media outlets that brought together 21 people with wide ranging views on gun control for a two-day discussion. Despite their opposing views, Jon and Melanie developed a friendship that has transcended their differences, though they still do plenty of arguing. In this final half of this interivew, Jon explains what those who aren’t “gun people” don’t understand about guns and Melanie and Meghan both admit there’s a lot they don’t understand. He and Melanie also talk about their overall sense of personal safety in the world and how they handle concerns like home invasion. Jon explains why he often carries a firearm and what he sees as the uses of owning assault style guns. Melanie reflects on a shooting that occurred at her high school when she was a student and wonders how much worse things would have been if the shooter had used an AR-15 instead of a pistol. Finally, Jon and Melanie talk about what sorts of legislative compromises might be possible on guns and what they think lawmakers could learn from them if they only asked.   Guest Bios: Melanie Jeffcoat received her MFA in Acting from the Professional Actor Training Program at the University of Washington in Seattle and has worked around the country in theater and film. Her acting credits include  “All My Children,” “Ordinary Joe” and “The Wonder Years.” Her producing, directing and writing credits include "Man in the Glass: The Dale Brown Story,” “Gip,” and Open Secret,” which won the Audience Choice Award at the 2010 Politics on Film Festival in Washington, D.C. Melanie is co-founder of Chaotic Good Improv in Birmingham, Alabama and is a volunteer with Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America. She lives near Birmingham, Alabama    Jon Godfrey worked in law enforcement for several decades, serving as Deputy County Sheriff in Pottawatomie County, Kansas, a criminal investigator in Kansas and Chief of Police for the US Dept. Of Veterans Affairs Police Service in Syracuse, New York. A retired army veteran, he lives in a rural area outside Syracuse, New York.

This week’s episode is the first of a two part series about guns in America. It’s a conversation between Meghan and two people with very different feelings about the issue. Melanie Jeffcoat is an actor, filmmaker and gun control activist who lives in Alabama. Jon Godfrey is a retired law enforcement officer who’s a staunch defender of the Second Amendment and lives in upstate New York. In this part of this conversation, Jon and Melanie talk about how their backgrounds shaped their feelings about guns and compare and contrast their reactions to the May 24 school shooting in Uvalde,Texas. While Melanie is perplexed as to why anyone would need something like an AR-15, Jon explains why he owns such weapons and why he advocates for proper training and better mental health screenings rather than restrictions on the guns themselves. Above all, they talk about how they came to know one another. In 2018 they were part of Guns: An American Conversation, a collaboration between TIME Magazine and a consortium of local media outlets that brought together 21 people with wide ranging views on gun control for a two-day discussion. Despite their opposing views, Jon and Melanie developed a friendship that has transcended their differences, though they still do plenty of arguing.      Guest Bios: Melanie Jeffcoat received her MFA in Acting from the Professional Actor Training Program at the University of Washington in Seattle and has worked around the country in theater and film. Her acting credits include  “All My Children,” “Ordinary Joe” and “The Wonder Years.” Her producing, directing and writing credits include "Man in the Glass: The Dale Brown Story,” “Gip,” and Open Secret,” which won the Audience Choice Award at the 2010 Politics on Film Festival in Washington, D.C. Melanie is co-founder of Chaotic Good Improv in Birmingham, Alabama and is a volunteer with Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America. She lives near Birmingham, Alabama    Jon Godfrey worked in law enforcement for several decades, serving as Deputy County Sheriff in Pottawatomie County, Kansas, a criminal investigator in Kansas and Chief of Police for the US Dept. Of Veterans Affairs Police Service in Syracuse, New York. A retired army veteran, he lives in a rural area outside Syracuse, New York.

Known by his nom de guerre “The Greatest American Living Writer,” Neal Pollack has published eleven books, including a rock history satire, several crime thrillers (including two yoga-themed crime thrillers), and memoirs on subjects ranging from fatherhood to yoga to marijuana addiction. His latest book is Edge of Safety, a satirical dystopian novel set at some indeterminate point in the future. In this world, the obedient citizens of Canada live in an almost perpetual state of high COVID alert, walking their dogs on treadmills and receiving food deliveries by drone  during “stay home” orders relayed by their public service mascot, Safety Moose. The United States, meanwhile, has descended into ecological and infra-structural chaos thanks to its lack of unified response. In this conversation, Neal talks about the pandemic in relation to his fictional characters as well as his own real life friends and neighbors. He and Meghan also compare notes about their struggles to stay afloat in the new creative economy and Neal’s side career as a competitive trivia player, which includes winning more than $60,000 on Jeopardy!. They also reminisce about People Who Suck, their short-lived but legendary talk show group on the Clubhouse social media app.   Guest Bio: Neal Pollack, The Greatest Living American Writer, has written 12 books of fiction and nonfiction, including the novels Repeat, Jewball, Keep Mars Weird, Downward-Facing Death, and, most recently, Edge of Safety. He's also the author of the bestselling memoirs Alternadad, Stretch, and Pothead, and many magazine articles, blogposts, short pieces of Internet satire, and corporate training manuals. A three-time Jeopardy! champion and aspiring semi-professional poker player, Pollack lives in Austin, Texas, with his family. 

Stephanie Lepp is an artist, a film and video producer and Executive Producer at the Center for Humane Technology, where she leads the production of the podcast Your Undivided Attention. Her latest independent project is Deep Reckonings, a series of “deep fake” videos that depict prominent figures making public statements that have been reimagined as empathetic and morally courageous. In this conversation, Stephanie talks about the origins and goals of Deep Reckoning as well as a variety of concepts that she’s developed in response to the current iteration of so-called “post-truth world.” This includes her her theory of  “promiscuous pragmatic pluralism.” She also recounts a conversation she had with economist Glenn Loury on his podcast earlier this spring and why she thinks the next presidential debate will be an “anti-debate” on The Joe Rogan Experience.  Guest Bio: Stephanie Lepp is the Executive Producer at the Center for Humane Technology, where she leads the production of the podcast Your Undivided Attention. Her latest independent project is Deep Reckonings, a series of explicitly-marked deep fake videos that imagine morally courageous versions of our public figures. 

Sarah Haider is an activist and a writer who became a noted figure in the new atheist movement around 2013, when she co-founded the advocacy group Ex-Muslims of North America. That is a nonprofit that promotes secular values, advocates for acceptance of religious dissent and works to combat discrimination faced by people who leave Islam in the U.S. and Canada. Her work there led to her trenches of the new free speech and free-think movements and she now writes on Substack, covering issues around race, identity, gender and social politics of various kinds. Despite their 20-year age difference, Sarah and Meghan have a lot of overlapping interests; the monoculture of elite media, the social and political myopia of elites in general, the inconvenient truths of the mating economy and and misconceptions around mens’s rights, to name just a few. In the public version of this episode, Sarah and Meghan cover those topics and more. The Patreon version includes an extra 40 minutes where they talk about Sarah’s upbringing and her relationship to Islam. Sarah came to the U.S. from Pakistan at age seven and was a devout Muslim until she had a dramatic change of perspective as a teenager. To hear that part, join the Patreon at patreon.com/theunspeakable.  Guest Bio: Sarah Haider has spent much of her professional life in the charitable world, co-founding two nonprofit organizations, including Ex-Muslims of North America. Today she spends much of her time thinking and writing about belief, social dynamics, and culture. You can find her writing on her Substack newsletter, Hold That Thought. Also find on Twitter at @SarahtheHaider. 

If you’re familiar with the so-called “heterodox” space, this week’s guest on The Unspeakable scarcely needs an introduction. In 2018, the social psychologist Jonathan Haidt, along with author and first amendment advocate Gregg Lukianoff, published The Coddling of The American Mind: How Good Intentions And Bad Ideas Are Setting Up A Generation For Failure. The book was central to a burgeoning public conversation that asked why young people, especially students on college campuses, were so unwilling to engage with ideas they perceived as dangerous—and in fact why they found so many ideas dangerous to begin with. Jon’s research offered crucial datapoints as to why this was happening and suggested that a handful of intersecting cultural trends—fearful parenting, omnipresent social media and the corporatization of higher education, to name a few—had resulted in a generation marked by high anxiety and a low sense of autonomy. His more recent work, including his article last month in The Atlantic, “Why The Past Ten Years of American Life Have Been Uniquely Stupid,” goes beyond what’s happened with young people and looks at our collapsing institutions more broadly. Jon and Meghan talked about that article and covered lots of new territory, too, including a project of Meghan’s that she has just begun to talk about, a heterodox women’s community. Many of her observations about the male dominated “free think” space and women’s reluctance to speak their minds map on to Jon’s own research about girls’ social development.   Relevant links:   https://www.thecoddling.com   https://heterodoxacademy.org   https://letgrow.org   https://openmindplatform.org     Guest Bio: Jonathan Haidt is a social psychologist at New York University’s Stern School of Business. His research examines the intuitive foundations of morality and how morality varies across cultural and political divisions. He is the author of The Happiness Hypothesis (2006) and of The New York Times bestsellers The Righteous Mind (2012) and The Coddling of the American Mind (2018, with Greg Lukianoff.) Haidt has given four TED talks and is a co-founder of Heterodox Academy, a nonpartisan nonprofit that promotes open inquiry, viewpoint diversity, and constructive disagreement in institutions of higher learning. Since 2018, he has been studying the contributions of social media to the decline of teen mental health and the rise of political dysfunction and he is currently writing a new book, "Life After Babel: Adapting To A World We Can No Longer Share.”

Amy Bloom is the author of ten books, mostly works of fiction, and her short story collections have been finalists for The National Book Award and the National Book Critics Circle Award. Her latest book, In Love, is a memoir about her husband Brian’s diagnosis of early onset Alzheimer’s in his mid-sixties and Brian's decision to end his life on his own terms. This required traveling to Zurich, Switzerland, where an organization called Dignitas facilitates what they call “accompanied suicide." Amy talked with Meghan about what was involved in getting to Digntas and why even though assisted dying is technically legal in some states in the U.S., the process is much more difficult than most people realize. In addition to being an author and a professor of creative writing at Wesleyan University in Connecticut, Amy has also been a practicing psychotherapist for decades and she talks about how that role intersects with her writing life and what she’s learned about relationships and compatibility after years of hearing people’s stories and telling her own.      Guest Bio: Amy Bloom is the author of four novels and three collections of short stories, including Come To Me, a finalist for the National Book Award, and A Blind Man Can See How Much I Love You, a finalist for The National Book Critics Circle Award. Her most recent book is the widely acclaimed NY Times bestselling memoir, In Love. She has written for magazines such as The New Yorker, The New York Times Magazine, Vogue, Elle, The Atlantic Monthly, Slate, and Salon, and her work has been translated into fifteen languages. She is the Silverberg-Shapiro Professor of Creating Writing at Wesleyan University.