The Unspeakable Podcast

Known by his nom de guerre “The Greatest American Living Writer,” Neal Pollack has published eleven books, including a rock history satire, several crime thrillers (including two yoga-themed crime thrillers), and memoirs on subjects ranging from fatherhood to yoga to marijuana addiction. His latest book is Edge of Safety, a satirical dystopian novel set at some indeterminate point in the future. In this world, the obedient citizens of Canada live in an almost perpetual state of high COVID alert, walking their dogs on treadmills and receiving food deliveries by drone  during “stay home” orders relayed by their public service mascot, Safety Moose. The United States, meanwhile, has descended into ecological and infra-structural chaos thanks to its lack of unified response. In this conversation, Neal talks about the pandemic in relation to his fictional characters as well as his own real life friends and neighbors. He and Meghan also compare notes about their struggles to stay afloat in the new creative economy and Neal’s side career as a competitive trivia player, which includes winning more than $60,000 on Jeopardy!. They also reminisce about People Who Suck, their short-lived but legendary talk show group on the Clubhouse social media app.   Guest Bio: Neal Pollack, The Greatest Living American Writer, has written 12 books of fiction and nonfiction, including the novels Repeat, Jewball, Keep Mars Weird, Downward-Facing Death, and, most recently, Edge of Safety. He's also the author of the bestselling memoirs Alternadad, Stretch, and Pothead, and many magazine articles, blogposts, short pieces of Internet satire, and corporate training manuals. A three-time Jeopardy! champion and aspiring semi-professional poker player, Pollack lives in Austin, Texas, with his family. 

Stephanie Lepp is an artist, a film and video producer and Executive Producer at the Center for Humane Technology, where she leads the production of the podcast Your Undivided Attention. Her latest independent project is Deep Reckonings, a series of “deep fake” videos that depict prominent figures making public statements that have been reimagined as empathetic and morally courageous. In this conversation, Stephanie talks about the origins and goals of Deep Reckoning as well as a variety of concepts that she’s developed in response to the current iteration of so-called “post-truth world.” This includes her her theory of  “promiscuous pragmatic pluralism.” She also recounts a conversation she had with economist Glenn Loury on his podcast earlier this spring and why she thinks the next presidential debate will be an “anti-debate” on The Joe Rogan Experience.  Guest Bio: Stephanie Lepp is the Executive Producer at the Center for Humane Technology, where she leads the production of the podcast Your Undivided Attention. Her latest independent project is Deep Reckonings, a series of explicitly-marked deep fake videos that imagine morally courageous versions of our public figures. 

Sarah Haider is an activist and a writer who became a noted figure in the new atheist movement around 2013, when she co-founded the advocacy group Ex-Muslims of North America. That is a nonprofit that promotes secular values, advocates for acceptance of religious dissent and works to combat discrimination faced by people who leave Islam in the U.S. and Canada. Her work there led to her trenches of the new free speech and free-think movements and she now writes on Substack, covering issues around race, identity, gender and social politics of various kinds. Despite their 20-year age difference, Sarah and Meghan have a lot of overlapping interests; the monoculture of elite media, the social and political myopia of elites in general, the inconvenient truths of the mating economy and and misconceptions around mens’s rights, to name just a few. In the public version of this episode, Sarah and Meghan cover those topics and more. The Patreon version includes an extra 40 minutes where they talk about Sarah’s upbringing and her relationship to Islam. Sarah came to the U.S. from Pakistan at age seven and was a devout Muslim until she had a dramatic change of perspective as a teenager. To hear that part, join the Patreon at patreon.com/theunspeakable.  Guest Bio: Sarah Haider has spent much of her professional life in the charitable world, co-founding two nonprofit organizations, including Ex-Muslims of North America. Today she spends much of her time thinking and writing about belief, social dynamics, and culture. You can find her writing on her Substack newsletter, Hold That Thought. Also find on Twitter at @SarahtheHaider. 

If you’re familiar with the so-called “heterodox” space, this week’s guest on The Unspeakable scarcely needs an introduction. In 2018, the social psychologist Jonathan Haidt, along with author and first amendment advocate Gregg Lukianoff, published The Coddling of The American Mind: How Good Intentions And Bad Ideas Are Setting Up A Generation For Failure. The book was central to a burgeoning public conversation that asked why young people, especially students on college campuses, were so unwilling to engage with ideas they perceived as dangerous—and in fact why they found so many ideas dangerous to begin with. Jon’s research offered crucial datapoints as to why this was happening and suggested that a handful of intersecting cultural trends—fearful parenting, omnipresent social media and the corporatization of higher education, to name a few—had resulted in a generation marked by high anxiety and a low sense of autonomy. His more recent work, including his article last month in The Atlantic, “Why The Past Ten Years of American Life Have Been Uniquely Stupid,” goes beyond what’s happened with young people and looks at our collapsing institutions more broadly. Jon and Meghan talked about that article and covered lots of new territory, too, including a project of Meghan’s that she has just begun to talk about, a heterodox women’s community. Many of her observations about the male dominated “free think” space and women’s reluctance to speak their minds map on to Jon’s own research about girls’ social development.   Relevant links:   https://www.thecoddling.com   https://heterodoxacademy.org   https://letgrow.org   https://openmindplatform.org     Guest Bio: Jonathan Haidt is a social psychologist at New York University’s Stern School of Business. His research examines the intuitive foundations of morality and how morality varies across cultural and political divisions. He is the author of The Happiness Hypothesis (2006) and of The New York Times bestsellers The Righteous Mind (2012) and The Coddling of the American Mind (2018, with Greg Lukianoff.) Haidt has given four TED talks and is a co-founder of Heterodox Academy, a nonpartisan nonprofit that promotes open inquiry, viewpoint diversity, and constructive disagreement in institutions of higher learning. Since 2018, he has been studying the contributions of social media to the decline of teen mental health and the rise of political dysfunction and he is currently writing a new book, "Life After Babel: Adapting To A World We Can No Longer Share.”

Amy Bloom is the author of ten books, mostly works of fiction, and her short story collections have been finalists for The National Book Award and the National Book Critics Circle Award. Her latest book, In Love, is a memoir about her husband Brian’s diagnosis of early onset Alzheimer’s in his mid-sixties and Brian's decision to end his life on his own terms. This required traveling to Zurich, Switzerland, where an organization called Dignitas facilitates what they call “accompanied suicide." Amy talked with Meghan about what was involved in getting to Digntas and why even though assisted dying is technically legal in some states in the U.S., the process is much more difficult than most people realize. In addition to being an author and a professor of creative writing at Wesleyan University in Connecticut, Amy has also been a practicing psychotherapist for decades and she talks about how that role intersects with her writing life and what she’s learned about relationships and compatibility after years of hearing people’s stories and telling her own.      Guest Bio: Amy Bloom is the author of four novels and three collections of short stories, including Come To Me, a finalist for the National Book Award, and A Blind Man Can See How Much I Love You, a finalist for The National Book Critics Circle Award. Her most recent book is the widely acclaimed NY Times bestselling memoir, In Love. She has written for magazines such as The New Yorker, The New York Times Magazine, Vogue, Elle, The Atlantic Monthly, Slate, and Salon, and her work has been translated into fifteen languages. She is the Silverberg-Shapiro Professor of Creating Writing at Wesleyan University. 

This week, comedian Jamie Kilstein returns to The Unspeakable for a wide-ranging, profanity-laced conversation about creativity, cancellation, relationships, sex, dating, breakups and numerous other subjects. Last fall, Jamie and Meghan talked about their respective podcasting woes and surviving in the new creative economy, which poses extra challenges for Jamie, since he was the target of a cancellation mob several years ago. This time, they get more personal. In addition to discussing Jamie’s recent return to standup, they talk about their relationship patterns, their attachment styles, and, most importantly, which members of the so-called IDW Jamie would sleep with. The answers to that question are mostly confined to bonus content on the Patreon-only version of the episode. But, don’t worry, the public version has plenty to offer, including  some offensive yet politically relevant jokes about Trader Joe’s and abortion. In that spirit, Meghan explains why she doesn’t believe she is cancelled and Jamie suggests that Meghan is “cancelled adjacent.” Finally, they consider whether to start a collaborative effort with other thought criminals called The Cancelled Collective and call upon listeners to offer suggestions.    Guest Bio: Jamie is a comedian and host of  A Fuckup's Guide to the Universe. He has been on Joe Rogan, Conan, and more. Support him at patreon.com/jamiekilstein.

Last week, a draft of a Supreme Court opinion indicating that the court was poised to overturn the landmark abortion decision Roe V. Wade was leaked to the press. Supporters of abortion rights—and, technically speaking, that means the majority of Americans—were stunned and deeply dismayed by the news, with social media users predicting the coming of a Handmaids’s Tale-style dystopia and and oped pieces decrying red state legislators as misogynist bigots. In the hopes of having a sober-minded conversation about practical, realistic ways to keep abortion accessible in a post-Roe world, Meghan called upon activist, ethicist and policy expert Frances Kissling. A longtime prominent figure in the fight for abortion rights, Kissling has been called “the philosopher of the pro-choice movement.” She ran an abortion clinic in New York City in the early 1970s before the passage of Roe, when the procedure was only legal in a handful of states. Later she was the founding President of that National Abortion Federation and after that served for 25 years as president of Catholics for Choice. In this is remarkable interview, Kissling talks about the history of Roe, the emotions surrounding it on both sides, the validity of the arguments on both sides of the issue, and why, despite the current tumult and distress, overturning Roe is not going to set the nation back to pre-1973. As she sees it, it’s time to shift the focus away from legislation in red states and focus on how blue states can serve women from all over the country.Guest Bio: Frances Kissling is currently President of the Center for Health, Ethics and Social Policy in Washington, DC and a professor of philosophy and ethics. She was the president of Catholics for Choice from 1982 to 2007 and has been working in the abortion rights movements since the very early 1970s.

If your doomscrolling over the past few years has led you to any of the so-called “dissident doctors” who are calling for more clarity and less catastrophizing when it comes public messaging around COVID, you might be familiar with Dr. Lucy McBride. When the pandemic lockdowns began, Dr. McBride, a practicing internist in Washington, D.C., began sending her patients email blasts explaining what was known (and unknown) about the virus and what they could (and couldn’t) do to try to stay safe. Those emails evolved into a popular newsletter that has put Dr. McBride centerstage in the call for a more reasonable, evidence-based approach to COVID measures. This week, Dr. McBride talks with Meghan about what the latest data says about COVID safety and why she thinks the public has lost perspective on what constitutes normal risk. She explains why the drug Ivermectin has been politicized and therefore weaponized, why the CDC has scared parents into seeing kids as germ vectors, and, above all, why it’s urgent that we prioritize mental health and stop fantasizing about “zero COVID.” She also talks about her new podcast, Beyond The Prescription, which debuts this week.   Guest Bio:  Dr. Lucy McBride is a practicing internist in Washington, DC and the author of the popular COVID 19 newsletter, which you can find at lucymcbride.com. She attended Princeton University and Harvard Medical School and trained in Internal Medicine at the Johns Hopkins Hospital. Her new podcast Beyond The Prescription debuts this week.

Jennifer Sey spent more than twenty years at Levis Strauss and Company, rising through the ranks to Chief Marketing Office and then Global Brand President. In 2020, she was in line to become CEO of the company when the Covid pandemic hit and she found herself working from home with four kids out out school. Soon, she became frustrated by school closures and puzzled about lockdown polices for kids in general. And she started speaking up about it. This did not sit well Levis and Jennifer was eventually forced out of the company — and offered a million dollar severance package in exchange for singing a non-disclosure agreement. But Jennifer was so committed to speaking out that she turned down the deal. In this interview, Jennifer and Meghan talk about how social media has blurred the lines between professional comportment and personal beliefs. They ask what it means when corporations take public political stances, how to tell a genuine expression of company values from virtue signaling, and whether corporate wokeness actually helps sell products. They also discuss Jennifer's career as an an elite gymnast and how her decision to come forward about abuses in USA gymnastics paved the way for her current activism around kids and covid policy.     Guest Bio: Jennifer Sey spent close to 23 years at Levi Strauss & Company, holding a variety of leadership positions, including Global Brand President. She was first woman to hold that post. She is also a former elite gymnast and was the U.S. National all-around champion in 1986. In 2008, she released a memoir, Chalked Up, about her life in gymnastics and she is also the producer of the Emmy award-winning documentary Athlete A, about abuses within competitive gymnastics, including the sexual abuses of hundreds of young gymnasts committed by team doctor Larry Nassar.

Last week, Elon Musk offered to buy Twitter for over 41 billion dollars. This came on the heels of his purchase last month of nearly ten percent of the company. This activity has invited speculation that the platform might shift away from what some users see as infamous censoriousness and into more free speech direction. That’s why Meghan invited Meghan Murphy onto the podcast. In 2018, Murphy, an independent journalist and blogger, was permanently banned from Twitter for, as she sees it, a few banal tweets about who counts as a woman, a man or anything else. She was never told what exactly was wrong with her tweets and she lost her appeals to be reinstated on the platform. In this conversation, Murphy talks about rebuilding her professional platform after losing access to most of her audience and why Twitter is especially crucial for independent creators. The two Meghans also talk about whether it’s easier for them to speak up about controversial subjects because they don’t have spouses or kids who might face repercussions.    Guest Bio: Meghan Murphy is a Canadian writer, the founder and editor of Feminist Current, and the host of the Feminist Current podcast. She was permanently banned from Twitter in 2018 for questioning gender identity ideology and for referring to a male as "he." She hosts The Same Drugs podcast on YouTube and Anchor.fm. Follow her work on Substack: https://meghanmurphy.substack.com/ and Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/meghanemilymurphy. She is currently based in Mexico.