The Unspeakeasy With Meghan Daum

This week, comedian Jamie Kilstein returns to The Unspeakable for a wide-ranging, profanity-laced conversation about creativity, cancellation, relationships, sex, dating, breakups and numerous other subjects. Last fall, Jamie and Meghan talked about their respective podcasting woes and surviving in the new creative economy, which poses extra challenges for Jamie, since he was the target of a cancellation mob several years ago. This time, they get more personal. In addition to discussing Jamie’s recent return to standup, they talk about their relationship patterns, their attachment styles, and, most importantly, which members of the so-called IDW Jamie would sleep with. The answers to that question are mostly confined to bonus content on the Patreon-only version of the episode. But, don’t worry, the public version has plenty to offer, including  some offensive yet politically relevant jokes about Trader Joe’s and abortion. In that spirit, Meghan explains why she doesn’t believe she is cancelled and Jamie suggests that Meghan is “cancelled adjacent.” Finally, they consider whether to start a collaborative effort with other thought criminals called The Cancelled Collective and call upon listeners to offer suggestions.    Guest Bio: Jamie is a comedian and host of  A Fuckup's Guide to the Universe. He has been on Joe Rogan, Conan, and more. Support him at patreon.com/jamiekilstein.

Last week, a draft of a Supreme Court opinion indicating that the court was poised to overturn the landmark abortion decision Roe V. Wade was leaked to the press. Supporters of abortion rights—and, technically speaking, that means the majority of Americans—were stunned and deeply dismayed by the news, with social media users predicting the coming of a Handmaids’s Tale-style dystopia and and oped pieces decrying red state legislators as misogynist bigots. In the hopes of having a sober-minded conversation about practical, realistic ways to keep abortion accessible in a post-Roe world, Meghan called upon activist, ethicist and policy expert Frances Kissling. A longtime prominent figure in the fight for abortion rights, Kissling has been called “the philosopher of the pro-choice movement.” She ran an abortion clinic in New York City in the early 1970s before the passage of Roe, when the procedure was only legal in a handful of states. Later she was the founding President of that National Abortion Federation and after that served for 25 years as president of Catholics for Choice. In this is remarkable interview, Kissling talks about the history of Roe, the emotions surrounding it on both sides, the validity of the arguments on both sides of the issue, and why, despite the current tumult and distress, overturning Roe is not going to set the nation back to pre-1973. As she sees it, it’s time to shift the focus away from legislation in red states and focus on how blue states can serve women from all over the country.Guest Bio: Frances Kissling is currently President of the Center for Health, Ethics and Social Policy in Washington, DC and a professor of philosophy and ethics. She was the president of Catholics for Choice from 1982 to 2007 and has been working in the abortion rights movements since the very early 1970s.

If your doomscrolling over the past few years has led you to any of the so-called “dissident doctors” who are calling for more clarity and less catastrophizing when it comes public messaging around COVID, you might be familiar with Dr. Lucy McBride. When the pandemic lockdowns began, Dr. McBride, a practicing internist in Washington, D.C., began sending her patients email blasts explaining what was known (and unknown) about the virus and what they could (and couldn’t) do to try to stay safe. Those emails evolved into a popular newsletter that has put Dr. McBride centerstage in the call for a more reasonable, evidence-based approach to COVID measures. This week, Dr. McBride talks with Meghan about what the latest data says about COVID safety and why she thinks the public has lost perspective on what constitutes normal risk. She explains why the drug Ivermectin has been politicized and therefore weaponized, why the CDC has scared parents into seeing kids as germ vectors, and, above all, why it’s urgent that we prioritize mental health and stop fantasizing about “zero COVID.” She also talks about her new podcast, Beyond The Prescription, which debuts this week.   Guest Bio:  Dr. Lucy McBride is a practicing internist in Washington, DC and the author of the popular COVID 19 newsletter, which you can find at lucymcbride.com. She attended Princeton University and Harvard Medical School and trained in Internal Medicine at the Johns Hopkins Hospital. Her new podcast Beyond The Prescription debuts this week.

Jennifer Sey spent more than twenty years at Levis Strauss and Company, rising through the ranks to Chief Marketing Office and then Global Brand President. In 2020, she was in line to become CEO of the company when the Covid pandemic hit and she found herself working from home with four kids out out school. Soon, she became frustrated by school closures and puzzled about lockdown polices for kids in general. And she started speaking up about it. This did not sit well Levis and Jennifer was eventually forced out of the company — and offered a million dollar severance package in exchange for singing a non-disclosure agreement. But Jennifer was so committed to speaking out that she turned down the deal. In this interview, Jennifer and Meghan talk about how social media has blurred the lines between professional comportment and personal beliefs. They ask what it means when corporations take public political stances, how to tell a genuine expression of company values from virtue signaling, and whether corporate wokeness actually helps sell products. They also discuss Jennifer's career as an an elite gymnast and how her decision to come forward about abuses in USA gymnastics paved the way for her current activism around kids and covid policy.     Guest Bio: Jennifer Sey spent close to 23 years at Levi Strauss & Company, holding a variety of leadership positions, including Global Brand President. She was first woman to hold that post. She is also a former elite gymnast and was the U.S. National all-around champion in 1986. In 2008, she released a memoir, Chalked Up, about her life in gymnastics and she is also the producer of the Emmy award-winning documentary Athlete A, about abuses within competitive gymnastics, including the sexual abuses of hundreds of young gymnasts committed by team doctor Larry Nassar.

Last week, Elon Musk offered to buy Twitter for over 41 billion dollars. This came on the heels of his purchase last month of nearly ten percent of the company. This activity has invited speculation that the platform might shift away from what some users see as infamous censoriousness and into more free speech direction. That’s why Meghan invited Meghan Murphy onto the podcast. In 2018, Murphy, an independent journalist and blogger, was permanently banned from Twitter for, as she sees it, a few banal tweets about who counts as a woman, a man or anything else. She was never told what exactly was wrong with her tweets and she lost her appeals to be reinstated on the platform. In this conversation, Murphy talks about rebuilding her professional platform after losing access to most of her audience and why Twitter is especially crucial for independent creators. The two Meghans also talk about whether it’s easier for them to speak up about controversial subjects because they don’t have spouses or kids who might face repercussions.    Guest Bio: Meghan Murphy is a Canadian writer, the founder and editor of Feminist Current, and the host of the Feminist Current podcast. She was permanently banned from Twitter in 2018 for questioning gender identity ideology and for referring to a male as "he." She hosts The Same Drugs podcast on YouTube and Anchor.fm. Follow her work on Substack: https://meghanmurphy.substack.com/ and Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/meghanemilymurphy. She is currently based in Mexico.

This week, Meghan talks with Yael Bar-tur and ChayaLeah Sufrin, co-hosts of the podcast Ask A Jew. ChayaLeah was born and raised in an Orthodox Hasidic community in Southern California and remains happily part of that community today. Yael is a secular Israeli Jew now living in New York City. The two became friends through an online community and began a dialogue about  (among other things) Judaism, much of which consisted of Yael asking ChayaLeah questions about the Orthodox world that she would have been afraid or embarrassed to ask most people. The conversations were so interesting that they started recording them — and from there emerged Ask A Jew.    In this conversation, Yael, ChayaLeah and Meghan (who is not Jewish despite having been a guest on Ask a Jew) cover a range of topics; anti-semitism, arranged marriage, policing, what happened to Jon Stewart, why the heterodox space is so male dominated and why the superstar podcaster and journalist Bari Weiss (who’s not a man) is so polarizing as to make people deranged. They also talk about their recent lunch together at a Kosher restaurant in Los Angeles that was founded by Steven Spielberg’s late mother.        Guest Bios: ChayaLeah Sufrin was raised in an Orthodox Jewish home in Long Beach, CA.  After attending university in New York, ChayaLeah moved back to Southern California and spent fifteen years teaching High school Jewish history and as the Education Director at Shul by the Shore. ChayaLeah served as the Senior Jewish Educator at Long Beach Hillel for three years and is now the Executive Director. ChayaLeah, together with her husband Boruch, has four  teenage sons. Yael Bar-tur is a crisis communications and social media consultant who previously served as the director of social media and digital strategy for the New York City Police Department where she developed and implemented the social media and digital communications strategy.

Sarah Hepola has been publishing personal essays and articles for decades and is the author of the 2015 bestseller Blackout, a memoir about her years of heavy drinking that focusses on the phenomenon of blackout. As Sarah explains it, blackout is a state of impaired memory that is distinct from being passed out and is often overlooked in conversations about intoxication and sexual consent. Meghan invited Sarah onto the podcast initially not to talk about blackouts but about Sarah’s recent essay in The Atlantic "The Things I’m Afraid To Write About.”: It’s about censorship, specifically the kind we impose on ourselves in a culture where voicing controversial opinions can bring on devastating professional and personal consequences. This topic comes up a lot these days, but Sarah comes to it out of a particular interest: how confusion over the difference between being in a blackout and being unconscious has factored into several high profile sexual assault cases.   One case Sarah has looked into is that of Brock Turner, the Stanford swimmer who was convicted in 2016 of sexual assault after he was discovered outside a fraternity house in an encounter with  woman who appeared to be unconscious. The story continues to elicit strong emotions in the public, but Sarah points out that the media narrative, which includes many vivid and troubling details, diverges significantly from the facts in court documents. Sarah’s mention of the Turner case in her Atlantic essay set off a firestorm of anger and invective, thereby illustrating exactly why she’d been so reluctant to speak her mind over the last several years. In this conversation, Sarah talks with Meghan about self-censorship and what’s happened in the media landscape to cause it. But they talk just as much about the Brock Turner case and how the media got so much of the story so wrong and never bothered to correct it. This may be the most “unspeakable” Unspeakable to date.   Bio: Sarah Hepola is the author of the bestselling memoir, Blackout: Remembering the Things I Drank to Forget, and the host/creator of America's Girls, a Texas Monthly podcast about the lost history and cultural impact of the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders. She is currently working on a memoir for The Dial Press/Random House about her ambivalent singlehood. She lives in Dallas.

This week, Meghan devotes another episode to the complexities and under-explored corners of the gender movement and talks with a young man going by the pseudonym “Austin.” A biological male who is now 23, Austin began identifying as a transgender woman as a young teenager and continued to do so well into college. After a series of psychological experiences slowly made him realize he was not transgender, Austin began to reverse course, stopping his cross sex hormone therapy and canceling an upcoming radical surgery. In this interview, Austin talks about the factors that contributed to his gender dysphoria, what it was like start (and stop) taking  hormones, and what happened when he confronted the therapists who had facilitated his transition. He also offers a counterpoint to the common narrative about trans identities in youth being prompted by social media and online influencers. On the contrary, Austin said he rarely used social media and that much of his identity was wrapped up in autogynephilia, a paraphilia wherein men are sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as women. Because the topic of autogynephilia has been deemed off-limits among many trans activists, it’s rarely discussed and poorly understood even among those familiar with the gender movement. Austin elaborates on this and other aspects of his gender identity path in a series of essays at https://detransqna.github.io.   Note:  This episode contains some graphic language about sexuality and might not be suitable for everyone.      Guest Bio: “Austin” is a pseudonym for a 23-year-old recent college graduate living in the United States.

This week’s guest on The Unspeakable is British journalist, broadcaster and filmmaker David Fuller. In 2018 David founded Rebel Wisdom, a multi-format media platform devoted to intellectually honest, self-scrutinizing conversations about complex topics. The platform is part ecosystem of though that has come to be called “sense making” and Rebel Wisdom offers everything from a YouTube channel to online courses in its aim to showcase a range of thinkers and foster connections between likeminded—or even not so likeminded—people all over the world. David’s very first Rebel Wisdom was an interview with Canadian psychologist Jordan Peterson and in the years since he has become both immersed in the so-called IDW space and somewhat disenchanted with it. Meghan was a guest on Rebel Wisdom last December and spoke with David about the phenomenon of audience capture and what happens when honest brokering threatens your “brand.” She invited David on The Unspeakable to continue the conversation and compare notes on how they’re feeling about the heterodoxy these days. Is it failing in its initial mission to promote viewpoint diversity and becoming more like a “homodoxy?” Or is a new cohort of more nuanced, less didactic thinkers about to emerge onto the scene?      Guest Bio: David Fuller is the founder of Rebel Wisdom, a media project that attempts to make new paradigm thinking accessible and compelling to a new generation. He worked for the UK's top news program Channel 4 News for ten years as reporter, producer and director and was the first mainstream TV journalist to cover the renaissance of psychedelic science back in 2008. David began making documentaries for the BBC and Channel 4 in 2011, primarily for the Emmy award-winning series ‘Unreported World’. His documentary ‘The Invisible People’, about the plight of disabled Syrian refugees in Lebanon was shortlisted for the "Royal Television Society awards in 2015.

Editor, journalist and podcaster Jonathan Kay is the author of several books, has worked as an editor and columnist at the Canadian newspaper The National Post and is currently the Canadian editor of Quillette, a digital publication founded in 2015 as a haven for what Jonathan has called “ideological refugees. In this interview, he talks with Meghan about a range of topics, including a question Meghan has been pondering a lot lately:  What is a conservative? Though you wouldn’t necessarily know it from his work over the last several years, Jonathan has spent much of his life identifying as a conservative. (His mother, the columnist Barbara Kay, has been a high profile conservative figure in Canada for decades.) He talked about what terms like “conservative” and “liberal” even mean in the post-Trump era, why he thinks political correctness hurts people on the left far more on the right and why he’s losing interest in culture war topics and would rather focus on subjects like ancient history. Most of all, he talks about why it’s time for “heterodox” thinkers to stop obsessing about culture war issues and pursue other interests.      Guest Bio: Jonathan Kay is Canadian Editor of Quillette, a TedX speaker, an op-ed writer at National Post, and co-host of the Quillette podcast. His freelance work has appeared recently in The Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Gotham, Canadian Jewish News, and other publications. Kay's books include Among The Truthers (2011), Legacy: How French Canadians Shaped North America (2016), Your Move: What Board Games Teach Us About Life (2019), Panics and Persecutions (2020), and Magic In The Dark: One Family’s Century Of Adventures In The Movie Business (2022). Follow him on Twitter at @jonkay.