The Unspeakable Podcast

Fan favorite Sarah Hepola is back! Sarah has visited The Unspeakable to talk about everything from alcoholism to #MeToo to the changes in the media landscape and literary world. Today she returns to discuss a recent solo episode she recorded for Smoke ‘Em If You Got ‘Em, the podcast she co-hosts with journalist Nancy Rommelmann. In that episode, Sarah reflected on a semester spent teaching literature and writing to college undergraduates in Dallas, Texas, where she lives. Contrary to public assumptions, the students turned out to be relatively open to new ideas and not hell-bent on canceling their teacher. In this conversation, Sarah talks about what literature the students responded most positively to, what assignments they didn’t like (spoiler: Joan Didion) and what they taught her about the ever-changing English language. Sarah and Meghan also talk about writing memoir, the contradictory social codes of dating, and why little girls touch each other’s hair so much—and why Meghan hated it!   Sarah stayed overtime for bonus content that was so good that Meghan decided to release it along with the main episode. In that portion, they talk about motherhood, non-motherhood, aging, dating, sex and pornography and why older women are so popular with young men on dating apps.    Guest Bio:   Sarah Hepola is the co-host, with Nancy Rommelmann, of the podcast Smoke ‘Em If You Got ‘Em. She is the author of the bestselling memoir Blackout and her essays have appeared in the New York Times magazine, the Atlantic, Elle, Bloomberg Businessweek, The Guardian,  Salon, and Texas Monthly. Find her at https://sarahhepola.com.   Relevant links: https://smokeempodcast.substack.com/p/smoking-diary-16-college-kids-today#details   https://smokeempodcast.substack.com/p/on-not-being-a-mother  

Ever since it was introduced in the early 1960s, the birth control pill has been inextricable from the concept of women’s liberation, body autonomy, and just about everyone’s sense of personal freedom and their own life choices. Holly Grigg-Spall, author of Sweetening The Pill: Or How We Got Hooked On Hormonal Birth Control, is in favor of all of those things. But she is also among a growing chorus of activists who believe that the sacrosanct nature of the pill discourages honest conversations about the mental and physical health risks posed by hormonal birth control. Instead of taking it for limited spans of time to prevent pregnancy, many women are often on the pill for the bulk of their reproductive lives, which technically is not the way it was designed to be used. In this conversation, Holly talks about how pharmaceutical companies began marketing birth control pills as “lifestyle drugs” and how artificial disruptions to the reproductive system can cause medical problems to go unnoticed and untreated. She also explains how tech-assisted fertility tracking differs from the old-fashioned “rhythm method” and explores the ways in which “infertility as a default setting for women” has affected mating and dating patterns – and not always for the better.   In the bonus portion for paying subscribers, Holly sticks around and talks about the process of developing Teena, a fertility tracking app for teenagers, and also the documentary The Business of Birth Control, which was inspired by her book (and criticized by Meghan on A Special Place In Hell.)    Guest Bio:  Holly Grigg-Spall is the author of Sweetening The Pill: Or How We Got Hooked On Hormonal Birth Control. Released in 2013, the book will mark its ten-year anniversary later this year and was the inspiration for the 2021 documentary The Business Of Birth Control, Holly recently launched Teena, a free education-forward app supporting body literacy for tweens and teens.

This week on the podcast, returning guest Lionel Shriver talks about her latest book, Abominations: Selected Essays From A Career Of Courting Self-Destruction. A collection of her writings from outlets like The Spectator, The Guardian and The Wall Street Journal, the book also contains some previously unpublished pieces a well as speeches and other public addresses, including a eulogy for her brother. Lionel is perhaps the consummate “thought criminal,” and in this conversation, she talks with Meghan about how she came to assume this mantle (hint: she supported Brexit) and what frustrates her most about culture war discourse. They discuss the Covid lockdown policies, the state of the literary arts, the new gender movement, and the differences between America and the U.K. when it comes to fears about nuanced positions being “weaponized by the other side.” They also consider the “am I canceled or am I just paranoid?” conundrum and wonder how much longer the culture wars can really go on.  Finally, Lionel reflects on how perceptions of our own happiness change over time and how, if she could send a message to her younger self, it would be, “you’re not as miserable as you think.”    In the bonus portion for paying subscribers, Lionel stays overtime to talk about Meghan’s second favorite subject: end-of-life options. Her last novel, Should We Stay Or Should We Go, took a darkly funny look at this subject by considering a dozen parallel universes for a couple who planned to kill themselves when they turned 80.  Lionel and Meghan pick up on where their conversation left off from Lionel’s last visit to the podcast and talk about their feelings about their own deaths and what it means to enter old age without children or close family. Uplifting stuff!    Guest Bio:   Lionel Shriver is a columnist for The Specator and the author, most recently, of Abominations: Selected Essays From A Career Of Courting Self-Destruction. Her  fiction includes The Mandibles, Property, So Much for That, the New York Times bestseller The Post-Birthday World, and the international bestseller We Need to Talk About Kevin. Her journalism has appeared in The Guardian, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Harper's, and the London Times, and she currently writes a regular column for The Spectator in the UK. She lives in London and Brooklyn, NY.

We sometimes think of anorexia as an “old school” disease, now eclipsed by disorders such as cutting and similar forms of self-harm. But as journalist Hadley Freeman reports in her new book, the illness has been around for centuries and is still very much with us. In Good Girls: A Story and Study of Anorexia, Hadley tells the story of her battle with severe anorexia as a teenager and also investigates the causes, treatments, social factors, and lasting effects of the disease. In this conversation, Hadley explains how even though there’s been a greater focus on self-harm practices such as cutting in recent years, anorexia rose sharply during and after the pandemic and has never been more relevant. She describes how at age 14 she suddenly stopped eating and, within months, lost a third of her body weight and landed in a hospital. It would take three years and nine hospitalizations before she began to get well. It’s often said that anorexia isn’t about being thin as much as it is about retaining control, but Hadley describes her own compulsion as a competitive desire to look ill, with the ultimate success being death itself. Other subjects covered include the connection between anorexia and gender dysphoria, including Meghan’s theory that social media star Dylan Mulvaney is less a gender influencer than an anorexia exhibitionist.    If that’s not unspeakable enough, Hadley stays overtime to talk about Meghan’s favorite third rail, Woody Allen, whom she’s interviewed and written about. They also discuss a recent interview Hadley conducted with author Judy Blume, whose expression of support for JK Rowling got her in trouble on Twitter. To hear that portion, become a paying subscriber at https://meghandaum.substack.com/.     Guest Bio: Hadley Freeman grew up in New York and London. She is a staff writer for The Sunday Times and previously spent 22 years at The Guardian. Her last book, House of Glass, was an international bestseller. Her new book is Good Girls: A Story and Study of Anorexia.

For more than 30 years, Jean Twenge has been studying how generational differences affect the workplace, family life, public policy, interpersonal relationships, and individual identity. Her research has been foundational in many of the current culture war discussions, including in Jonathan Haidt and Greg Lukianoff’s seminal book The Coddling of the American Mind. Jean is the author of seven books, including Generation Me and iGen: Why Today’s Super-Connected Kids Are Growing Up Less Rebellious, More Tolerant, Less Happy–and Completely Unprepared for Adulthood. Her new book is Generations: The Real Differences between Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, Boomers and Silents and What they Mean for America’s Future. In this conversation, she talks with Meghan about what she’s learned from working with a dataset of 39 million people born between 1925 and 2012. She dispels some of the most common myths about certain generations (for instance that millennials are broke) and talks about the concept of “fast” versus “slow” life strategies. She also talks about how the 1950s got codified as a symbol of traditional values when in fact it was an anonymous case in many ways. For instance, more women were enrolled in college in the 1930s than in the 1950s.    Jean stays overtime for paying Substack subscribers to share her feelings about her own age generation. That happens to be Generation X, which is one of Meghan’s favorite topics. Meghan asks why Gen X is the real "greatest generation." To hear that portion, become a paying subscriber at https://meghandaum.substack.com/.   Guest Bio: Jean Twenge is a professor of Psychology at San Diego State University and the author of several books, including Generation Me, iGen, and The Narcissism Epidemic. Her new book is Generations: The Real Differences between Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, Boomers and Silents and What they Mean for America’s Future. She lives in San Diego with her husband and three daughters.

Stella O’Malley is a psychotherapist in Ireland who works with adolescents and their families. She’s also an author, documentarian, and speaker, but many Unspeakable listeners may know her from her podcast Gender A Wider Lens, which she co-hosts with therapist (and early Unspeakable guest) Sasha Ayad. This conversation covers aspects of the gender debates, but the main occasion for Stella’s visit is her new book, What Your Teen Is Trying To Tell You: Surviving, Thriving and Reconnecting Through The Teenage Years. In it, she writes about how overreliance on mental health professions has undermined parents’ confidence in their own judgment and instincts. Too often, at the slightest sign of trouble, therapists are brought into the picture, leading everyone to pathologize what in many cases are simply normal, if uncomfortable feelings. Stella discusses the impact of psychotropic prescriptions, the element of social contagion when it comes to “having mental illness,” and posits that the absence of organized religion has created a spiritual void in teenagers that can lead to depression. (Meghan is surprised by this and wonders if this is an Irish thing.) Stell also talks about what it’s been like to be at the forefront of conversations about gender dysphoria and stays overtime to talk about her own dysphoria as a kid.    To hear the bonus portion, become a paying subscriber at meghandaum.substack.com.   Guest Bio: Stella O'Malley is a psychotherapist, best-selling author, public speaker, and parent with many years of experience working in counseling and psychotherapy. Born in Dublin, Stella lives in rural Ireland, where she runs her private practice and lives with her husband and two children. Find her at http://www.stellaomalley.com/.

ChayaLeah Sufrin and Yael Bar-tur hardly need an introduction, since this is their third visit to The Unspeakable! Last fall, the hosts of the acclaimed podcast Ask A Jew explained the meaning of Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, and Sukkot (or the “autumn holidays,” as Meghan calls them). Now, it’s the spring holiday, and Yael gives her version of the Passover story before ChayaLeah steps in and sets the record straight. ChayaLeah also explains some of the more unusual customs of Orthodox Jews during Passover, including lining your entire kitchen with tin foil and getting your car detailed to make sure it’s completely devoid of crumbs. They also talk about everyone’s favorite topic, the “crisis of masculinity,” and whether matchmaking practices among the Orthodox are better than dating apps. On a lighter note, Yael explains the current political situation in Israel.    In the bonus portion for Unspeakale Substack subscribers, Yael and ChayaLeah reflect on being the ages that they are and also talk more about incels.   The Unspeakable will take next week off for Passover/Easter/spring break and will return April 17.   Guest Bios: ChayaLeah Sufrin was raised in an Orthodox Jewish home in Long Beach, CA.  After attending university in New York, ChayaLeah moved back to Southern California and spent fifteen years teaching High school Jewish history and as the Education Director at Shul by the Shore. ChayaLeah served as the Senior Jewish Educator at Long Beach Hillel for three years and is now the Executive Director. ChayaLeah, together with her husband Boruch, has four  teenage sons. Yael Bar-tur is a crisis communications and social media consultant who previously served as the director of social media and digital strategy for the New York City Police Department where she developed and implemented the social media and digital communications strategy.

Ruby Warrington has staked out ground in a number of areas. She is the founder of the self-publishing platform The Numinous and also a leading figure in the “sober curious” movement; she coined the term and is also the author of the 2018 book of the same name. She visited The Unspeakable to talk about a subject very close to Meghan’s heart; the decision not to have kids. In her new book Women Without Kids: The Revolutionary Rise of an Unsung Sisterhood, Ruby examines the rise in women (and men) who are childless--either by choice or circumstance--and reports on the “global reproduction slowdown” of the last several decades. She shares her own story and reflects on how much (or how little) the family dynamics of her own childhood shaped her choice not to become a mother. She and Meghan talk about how childless people are planning for their old age, the degree to which concerns about climate change are affecting people’s choices, and whether there really is a global population crisis (and if so, which direction it’s going in).   For paying subscribers to the Unspeakable Susbtack, Ruby stays overtime for a topic that has never been covered on the podcast; astrology! Meghan is skeptical about the whole thing (in other words, a typical Aquarius) but nonetheless interested in what her birth chart might tell her about her struggles of late. They also talk at length about the sober curious movement, including how and why Ruby began hosting sober curious events and how this approach is different from traditional twelve-step programs. Meghan even shares a bit about her still-in-progress year off from drinking.     Guest Bio: Ruby Warrington is the author of Women Without Kids: The Revolutionary Rise of an Unsung Sisterhood and is the creator of the term “sober curious." Author of the 2018 book Sober Curious and million-download podcast of the same title, her work has spearheaded a global movement to reevaluate our relationship to alcohol. Other works include Material Girl, Mystical World (2017), The Numinous Astro Deck  (2019), and The Sober Curious Reset (2020). With 20+ years’ experience as a lifestyle journalist and editor, Ruby is also the founder of the self-publishing incubator Numinous Books.

Stephen Marche is the author of six books, has been a columnist at Esquire, has taught Shakespeare at the college level and has contributed to The New Yorker, The Atlantic, The New York Times, and many other publications. By any reasonable measure, his career is an unmitigated success. But seen through a different lens (for instance his own) it can also look a lot like failure. That’s true of just about every writer who ever lived and Stephen grapples with this dichotomy in new book, On Writing And Failure, which is both a literary history and a reverse pep talk for aspiring artists. In this conversation, Stephen talks about how writers from James Baldwin to James Joyce to Li Bai (and many, many others) built legacies on the sands of constant rejection. He also shares stories of his own failures and offers some thoughts about how the contours of failure and rejection have changed in the new independent creator economy. For paying Substack subscribers, Stephen stays overtime to talk about failure outside of the literary arena, including the perils of marriage and childrearing. Meghan shares her story about getting rejected from a dream job because of a typo in her resumé and Stephen remembers what it was like when his first book, a novel, received a positive New York Times review from none other than . . . Meghan!   Guest Bio: Stephen Marche is a novelist and essayist. He is the author of half a dozen books, including The Next Civil War, The Unmade Bed: The Messy Truth About Men and Women in the Twenty-First Century (2016) and The Hunger of the Wolf (2015). He has written opinion pieces and essays for The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Atlantic, Esquire, The Walrus and many others. He is the host of the hit audio series How Not to F*ck Up Your Kids Too Bad, and its sequel How Not to F*ck Up Your Marriage Too Bad on Audible. His latest book is On Writing and Failure: Or, On the Peculiar Perseverance Required to Endure the Life of a Writer (Field Notes).

Lincoln Jones is the director of the American Contemporary Ballet Company in Los Angeles, which he co-founded in 2011. Lincoln took an unusual path to dance and has an approach to performance and stage production that is worth discussing in its own right. But he came across Meghan’s radar because of his unlikely involvement in the new free speech debates. In this conversation, Lincoln explains how that happened (spoiler alert: he didn’t want to perfunctorily post a black square on his company’s website in the summer of 2020) and talks about how even the ballet world has been affected by the censoriousness of the current moment. Most of all, though, he talks about dance. In a conversation unlike you’ve heard on The Unspeakable, Lincoln talks about what choreography means to him, especially the choreography and dance of Fred Astaire, and about how movement maps onto the human experience and translates to the stage.    In the bonus portion for paying subscribers at https://meghandaum.substack.com Lincoln shares his feelings about his age–47 years old–and talks about how awareness of his mortality is fueling his work. He offers his opinion about TikTok dances, Michael Jackson, and discloses how he really feels about the film LaLa Land.   Guest Bio: Lincoln Jones is the director of the American Contemporary Ballet Company in Los Angeles. Learn more about the company at https://www.acbdances.com.