The Copywriter Club Podcast

Copywriter and cold emailing specialist, Jorden Roper, joins Kira and Rob in The Copywriter Club Podcast studio for the 39th episode. Jorden is a three time college dropout who lost her job (the same day her husband lost his job at the same company) and managed to find several freelance clients within a month. She shares how she did it, and how she used cold emailing to find clients plus: •  How you can do cold emailing that lands clients on day one •  The cold emailing formula she used to grow her business •  How she used Pinterest to brainstorm her brand •  How to be fearless as you “put yourself out there” •  How she uses Youtube to attract a different audience to her blog •  How much work she put into creating and launching her course •  The biggest mistake she sees new writers making today This one is packed with useful information and ideas any writer, beginner or expert, can use to grow and improve their business. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Craig’s List Problogger Job Board Limeleads Pinterest Jorden’s video about haters on Youtube Writing Revolt Blog Cold Emailing Course Mariah Coz’s Launch Your Signature Course Maggie Patterson Jorden’s FB Community Jorden on Twitter Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters, and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That’s what Kira and I do every week at the Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 39 as we chat with copywriter Jorden Roper about getting fired from bad jobs, and finding copywriting to pay the bills, using YouTube for brand building and outreach, what she has done differently from other copywriters to get an edge, and how copywriters can find great clients with cold emailing. Rob: Hey, Kira. Hey, Jorden. Jorden: Hey, guys. Kira: Hello. Welcome, Jorden. Jorden: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Rob: Yeah. It’s about time. We’ve been trying to get you on the podcast for a little while. It’s time you got here. Jorden: Yes, I’m so excited to be here. Thank you so much. Rob: Jorden, I think maybe we should start with your story. I know you’ve shared this a lot with your list, but a lot of our listeners probably haven’t heard it. You went through a time in your life when you were going through different jobs and landed where you are. Tell us about that. Jorden: Well, before I started my freelance writing business, pretty much right before, I had been working at this full-time job at a marketing agency. I was doing some writing there. It was very stressful. It was a super toxic work environment. I know a lot of people who are probably trying to break into freelance writing can relate to that, like just going to work every day, sitting in your car in the morning, and just wanting to scream or cry or whatever before you walk up to the office. That’s kind of the situation that I was in. I ended up getting fired from that job. Just a few months before that actually, my husband started working at the same job. When his contract ended, they decided to just let me go, too. Kira: What? Jorden: Yeah, we’re both out of work on the same day. Kira: Oh, no. Jorden: We walk out of the office together like, “Oh my God. What are we going to do? This is insane.” It was very stressful. Actually, I had some other stuff going on at the time, too, just within ... I think within the same week before this happened, I found out that I had an early stage skin cancer on my leg. It was just one of those when it rains, it pours type situations. It was extremely stressful, but ultimately I’m very thankful for it just because I had been wanting to start freelance writing for a while before that. Getting fired gave me that little push I needed to just say, “You know what, I’m just going to go all in and make this happen.” Kira: Wow. You walk out the doors, you’re fired, and you’re like ... How do you go from there to launching a business? Did it take a couple of months, or did you get a client immediately? Jorden: I landed my first clients pretty quickly. I mean, I think, just for a couple of days, my husband and I were both just kind of in this shocked, like “Oh my God. What are we going to do?” state where we were just kind of thinking about our next steps. After that, I had been reading about freelancing for a while, and I had been already thinking like, “You know, I want to make an escape plan and like get out of this job like soon for sure,” so I knew a little bit about what I needed to do. I started pretty much right away setting up a website for myself, creating a marketing strategy based on the niche that I chose. I think I got fired in mid April. Then at the beginning of May, that’s when I started really aggressively marketing myself as far as cold emailing, and all that stuff. Rob: You talk about the marketing strategy that you set up. Tell us a little bit more about that. What did that look like? What were you thinking you were going to be doing? Jorden: Well, I just knew that I wanted to focus heavily on branding myself, and also positioning. I knew just from reading tons and tons of blog posts online that I definitely wanted to pick a narrow niche when I started out, so I decided to market myself to IT service providers and software development companies and technology companies. I set up basically my entire website based around that. I made my niche clear. I really positioned myself as a perfect fit for that kind of clientele specifically. All my writing samples were in those industries. Then, I started cold emailing those specific target clients. Rob: This is before you had any clients at all. You had created some samples and chose this all before client number one? Jorden: I had gotten a few little jobs here and there, while I was working, just dabbling in freelance writing. I got one job from Craigslist, and then I had gotten one job from the ProBlogger job board, but I think once I got fired, that was when I decided I need to start really taking this seriously like a business. Instead of just applying to a random gig here and there, I wanted to start really pitching myself and going after more high-quality, high-paying clients. Kira: What did the cold emailing process look like? I mean, if you could share the details, too, just how did you pull together the list? How did you find them? What did the emails look like? All the details. We want all of it. Jorden: Yeah, for sure. Mainly how I got email addresses was using a tool called LimeLeads. It’s basically a huge database of B2B leads that you can download based on industry. Since I had niche down, it was really easy for me to go into that database and pull a bunch of email addresses in the IT and technology industry specifically. That’s what I did. I didn’t do that horrible thing where you just send out the same template to a thousand people. It wasn’t anything like that, but I sat down and went down the list and personalized every single email, took the time to look at their website, took the time to talk to them about how I could help their business, really use that cold email to position myself as the perfect fit for their business specifically. That’s what I did. I set a goal to send 20 to 25 cold emails a day. That’s what I was doing for the most part. But on the very first day that I sent out cold emails, I sent 17. Two of those ended up turning into high-paying clients. After that, I was just like, “Well, I know I’m going to be cold emailing a lot now, because that’s what’s working.” Kira: I want to know about what you actually said in your emails, because there must’ve been some structure in it, and it worked, especially for people who may want to do the same thing and land their first few clients. Jorden: Starting with the subject line, I think a mistake that I made really, really early on, like before I started learning how to market myself, was using a self-focused subject line about how I needed work or whatever. But then I started learning more about it and learning to make it more client-focused, so asking them about their content strategy, or mentioning something specific about their business. Then in the email, I would make sure to personalize again. I was using the person’s name. I was making a genuine connection with them, so mentioning something specific I had seen that they’d done online, whether it had been a blog post or something that I thought was really cool that they had done with their business. That was always early in the email. Another thing that I always put early on in the email was my niche. I didn’t reach out to them and say, “Hey, I’m a freelance writer.” It was like hey, “I am an IT and technology copywriter.” Right away, as soon as they opened my email, they’re like, “Okay. This person specializes in my industry.” I would link out to my site from there. Again, it was the positioning of this is an IT and technology copywriter. I had that in a huge headline on my homepage. I had all of my portfolio pieces tailored to that. I think overall with the email, it was just using that really targeted strategy, and really using positioning as far as my niche expertise is what helped me become successful with cold emailing. Rob: On day one, you landed two clients. You said they turned into high-paying clients. I’m assuming the first jobs were relatively small.

Copywriter Jessica Manuszak joins Kira and Rob to talk all things copy for the 38th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Jessica specializes in capturing the unique voice of her clients. In this interview, Jessica opens up and shares the details of how she’s grown her business over the past couple of years, including... (we added the ellipsis for her benefit—you’ll see why). •  How she became the top-performing salesperson with absurd scripts •  The “mixtape” secret for writing in her client’s voice •  Her process for naming products and services •  How she “justifies her copy” cuts down on edits by using Google Docs •  A step-by-step rundown of her process working with clients •  How she really landed several “big name” clients—she says it was luck : ( •  The thing she hates most that other copywriters keep doing Lots of good ideas and information from a successful copywriter who hasn’t been in the game for decades, but is doing well nonetheless. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Ash Ambirge The Middle Finger Project The Little Mermaid Spotify Scrabble Dictionary Saved by the Bell Acuity Typeform World’s Best Boss Mug Neil Gaiman AAA Dove The Copywriter Club Email Lianna Patch Marian Schembari VerveandVigour.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You’re invited to join the club for episode 38, as we chat with copywriter Jessica Manuszak about her career journey, from working in government to growing her own agency, landing and working with big name clients, finding confidence, and what she sees as the biggest opportunities for copywriters today. Kira: Hi, Jess. Hi, Rob. How’s it going? Rob: Hey guys. Jessica: Oh, hi. I’m good, thanks. Kira: Welcome to the show, Jess. We’ve been waiting. We’ve been waiting for you. Jessica: Oh man. I’m so ready. Kira: So, I think a good place to start, Jess, is just how you ended up in copywriting, especially from government finance. Jessica: It’s funny because it was a completely natural and completely unnatural transition. Right out of college, I went into telemarketing, selling like skeezy online degrees to people who didn’t need them. I was talking to like 74-year-old women, being like, “No, but engineering would really help you with your goals.” It was not good news. But that was the first time … Rob: I can think of a couple of degrees I might want to get, actually. Kira: I know. Jessica: Right, I think we can do that. Kira: Are you still selling? Jessica: Yeah, I’ll hook you up … underwater basket weaving. But that was actually the first time I ever realized how powerful personality can be when you’re selling something. Because everyone else was like, “Oh hello, Jane. Would you like to purchase this degree program?” I was leaving them voicemails, it was like, “Jane, this is Jane from the future and I’m so glad you got that degree,” just like … Kira: Did you really? Jessica: Well, yeah. Kira: Did you really leave those messages? Jessica: Mm-hmm (affirmative), 100 percent. Kira: Wow. Jessica: I actually was the top performing salesperson on my floor while I worked there because of those like just off-the-wall, absurd scripts. So I left that, went to work for a school district, where I was managing a multi-million dollar bond project. Spent a lot of time with rich, White dudes for a while … and that was a learning experience. My boss at the time made a comment on one of my emails that I had sent to another staff member, saying that I had too much personality. He was like, “It’s very funny. It’s very funny. You’re very funny, but you know this is just … it’s not professional.” I knew then that something had to change. So, I had been following Ash Ambirge for awhile, with The Middle Finger Project and House of Moxie, and I knew that she was my people. Over the course of a month, I actually taught myself how to build websites, basic ones not great ones. So, I built a one-pager about why she should hire me and tweeted her the link. She was not hiring at the time. She emailed me back, later that night, and was like, “Oh my God, I’m crying, like yes, let’s do this!” The rest is history. I put in my notice at my job, worked for Ash for a few years, and then transitioned into my own agency, after she had mentored me and showed me the ropes. Rob: Jess, that’s really cool. You mentioned a couple of times personality, and I think if anybody starts looking at your website or any of the things that you’ve written in the past, personality is one of those things that really jumps out from what you do. Talk a little bit more about how you use your personality in the things that you’re doing with your customers, but also the work that you’ve got on your website and that you’ve done for other people, it also just sort of … it’s really good at bringing out the personality of your clients. How do you do that? Jessica: Well, I sold my voice to a sea witch in 1996. Rob: Wait a minute. I think I’ve seen that episode. Jessica: Yeah, yeah, I know. They made a Lifetime documentary about it. It’s called The Little Mermaid. Rob: Awesome. Jessica: That’s a great question. I have always been super into pastiches, where you mimic someone else’s tone. I remember like for fun, in middle school, I was like the chubby, nerdy middle school kid with like gel holding her bangs back, right? During that time, I was such a nerd that I would read books, then try to write in the author’s voice in my journal. It got to the point to where I was winning writing contests for pastiches. It’s always been a skill I’ve developed because I’ve enjoyed the process of it. I love thinking like someone else and feeling like someone else. I think it’s good not just for like compassion and empathy, but obviously for like writing and sales, too. I don’t know if that answers your question. I mean I do it because I’ve worked really hard to be able to do it. I guess. Rob: Are there specific things that you do to sort of put yourself into that mindset? Or is it just … you’re just to the point now where it just comes naturally? Jessica: Both. With like my retainer clients, who I work with all the time, that’s a pretty automatic like switch that gets flipped. But for like new clients and stuff, I will actually make playlists in Spotify of songs that have that same tone or … this is going to sound so woo, woo and absolutely bonkeroo, but I go by my gut feeling a lot. So, like I’ll read over a client’s intake stuff and see how it makes my gut feel. Then, I’ll try to listen to music and find music that makes my gut feel that same way — to like create an ambiance of their tone, like I seep myself in their tone. Does that make sense? Rob: Yeah. Yeah, it does. Now I sort of want to go through your intake form to find out what music matches my personality. Kira: Yeah, I do, too. I do, too. Jessica: I’ll make you a mixtape, Rob. Rob: There you go. Kira: Yeah, and I want to go over your process and the questions you’re asking on the intake form and all of that. But I feel like first, I want to back up a bit and find out, while you were immersed in copywriting in your first agency experience with Ash, what were some key lessons you took from those writing projects and experiences that you’ve really incorporated into your own agency now? Jessica: Ah, so many things. If I had to pick one or two. Kira: You can share 10. I mean we’ve got time. Jessica: Five thousand, seven hundred and eighty-two things. Kira: We’ve got all day. Jessica: The best BuzzFeed article of all time. I would say, from a business standpoint, Ash does an incredible job of projecting confidence and authority, constantly. Even if things are showing up in her life or circumstances or whatever that kind of indicate a little bit of vulnerability or whatever, Ash is just this unwavering pillar of strength for her community, which means people are just constantly clamoring, like, “Give me your money,” because they trust her, and they should. So from a business standpoint, that was really helpful to see. Because I’ve been kind of a doormat in my life. You know, “Oh, whatever you need, I’ll do it. Okay, sure.” So, to see her be so strong and still liked as a woman was really important for me, especially because when I first started working with her I was mid-20s, early 20s I guess. That’s an important time to like figure out who the heck you are and how you want to show up in the world. In terms of like a copywriting lesson, everything I know about naming I learned from Ash. She’s the best namer I’ve ever met. She understands how words feel together — like how they taste, like how they, you know? She gets it. Kira: Are there exercises? Because I don’t consider myself a good namer, and it’s something that I have struggled with. I haven’t really focused on it either. But are there any tricks or just ways we can improve if we’re not necessarily a great namer, but we need to incorporate that into some of our projects? Jessica: Whenever I’m stuck with naming, I get real intimate with the thesaurus, which I know is nothing revolutionary, but like I won’t even necessarily look for specific words. Sometimes I’ll Google like two-syllable words that start with F,

Copywriter and business strategist, Maggie Patterson joins The Copywriter Club Podcast to talk about growing a sustainable consulting business. This is actually the second time Maggie has joined us to chat, but sadly, the first recordings are lost to history. In this second go-round (which just might be better than the lost episode), Kira and Rob get the low down on: •  Exactly what it takes to grow a sustainable copywriting business •  The three things you need before you can teach a skill or build a course •  How to find undiscovered opportunities in your business today •  What it takes to move your business to the next level •  How to build a platform and position yourself the right way •  How to get more done (especially when you’re busy) •  How to deal with clients (the good and the bad) •  The one thing copywriters can do to improve their businesses today •  The secret to getting referrals from your clients Maggie lets loose and shares it all in this episode. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Maggie’s website The Service Business Success Show Brittany Becher Scoop Industries The conflict resolution resource Maggie mentioned but didn’t talk about Basecamp CXL article on process posted by Rob Joanna Wiebe Jamba Juice Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at the Copywriter Club podcast. Rob: You’re invited to join the club for episode 37 as we chat with copywriter and entrepreneur Maggie Patterson about getting referrals, building a business and merging it with her partner’s business, productize services, why you shouldn’t create a course, and how we can up our game as copywriters. Kira: Hey, Rob. Hey, Maggie. Maggie: Hey, guys. Kira: How’s it going? Rob: Kira, Maggie. Maggie: I’m excited to be here. Kira: Welcome back. We did record an episode with Maggie, and it was incredible, and it was lost. Lost somewhere in a hole, so this is going to be even better, because Maggie is even more fired up this time, right? Maggie: I don’t know if that’s possible, but we’ll see what I can do. Kira: I think a great place to start, Maggie, is you recently put out a show on your podcast, the Service Business Success Show, and I believe it was episode 53 of your show. You were talking about why being a practitioner matters. That was one of my favorite shows that you put out, and I know you were fired up. I want to hear what was the catalyst for even creating that show, and maybe you can just give some backstory for people who didn’t listen to that show. Maggie: Essentially, the premise of that show was ... I love this question, by the way, because this is one of my most favorite topics. The premise of it was really that so many times, we want to cut ahead, and we just want this seven bajillion dollar business, and we don’t actually want to do the work. The reality is for us to build a sustainable business, we need to have mastery. We have to have real skills. For us to be relevant and to be able to grow to those next stages of potentially, one day, maybe in the future of having an online course, you need to be really, really good at what you do to be in touch with it. I think I see so many people teaching that aren’t doing anymore, and they’re disconnected. They’re giving advice that is not relevant, or you know what, one even worse, they’ve never actually done it themselves. It’s something their coach taught them, and now they’re teaching it to other people. There’s just so much flimsiness out there. It makes me crazy. Rob: Yeah. I see this over and over. I’m not going to name any names. I’m sure people can identify people, but it’s almost like a guru or so-called guru does something once. Maybe they built an email list using Pinterest, or they offer a product and they build a sales page, and then suddenly everything is all about how do you do list building and how do you do sales pages. They’re selling courses about the thing that they’ve done once for their own business. They’ve never done it for anybody else’s business. Who knows if it’s replicable. It drives me crazy. Maggie: Here’s the thing that gets me about it is as a practitioner, as someone who’s been doing this a fairly long time is I’ve seen so many different scenarios and mutations of how things will go. The market changes so fast when you’re working online. The reality is is that at the end of the day, it’s really hard for you to teach or give anyone counsel when you haven’t looked at that more macro view. I think people are teaching a very micro-view of that thing that happened for them. Then, what happens to the rest of us over here in practitioner land is we are left undoing those unreasonable expectations. I mean, I have this conversation multiple times per week with clients where I’m educating them. I always say, “That person is a freaking magical unicorn. Results may vary. That’s not typical.” I’m now the dream killer completely, 24/7. That’s my official hashtag. Princess Straight Talk is the other one I’ve started calling myself lately. Kira: When people are listening, though, it’s like, “Well, how do we know if we’re ready to teach the course?” Right? Because, there could be some people that have been the practitioner for a while, or at least in their mind, they are good. Is there some type of checklist we could run through so we know when we’re ready to expand and maybe teach? Maggie: I think there’s really three parts to this is, number one, understanding that value chain of building your business. Most of us start off freelancing, and then we move into being a business owner. Then, we move into leveraged or productized services. Then, we should be going into probably something more like a group program. So many times, I see people wanting to go from freelancer to big-money group program, or totally hands-off, passive product. What they’re missing in that is refining their method. I think doing ... just, let’s say as a copywriter, just writing copy for a really long time is not good enough, in my book at least. You need to have methods, systems and frameworks, and have your process really, really set out. I think if you haven’t done that step of offering a productized service yet, you’re probably jumping ahead. Number two is understanding, as a service business owner, as a copywriter, there is so much scale left in your business. So many times people will say to me ... I’ve had this conversation twice in the last week alone, that they’re like, “Well, I maxed down on how much money I can make.” Then I start deconstructing their business. I look at it, I’m like, “You could raise your price here. You could triple your price here. You could add a service here.” They could be making so much more money without that time, effort and stress of launching a course. Then the third thing is have you done the audience building? This is the one I see a lot of people break down. Maybe they’ve nailed one and two, but they’re like, “Well, I have a 50-person list.” I’m like, “Okay. Good luck with that conversion rate.”I think as a copywriter, we have a better handle on conversion rate, but we have these mythical, magical stories of rainbows and unicorns where so-and-so had a 500-person list. Well let me tell you about that, it was four years ago when there was only two people doing what that person does. Now, there’s 500 people doing the same thing, trying to teach that same course. I think you need to have your feet firmly planted in reality, and really look at do I have the audience and the reputation to pull this course off. Hey, maybe you’re only trying to get five people. Great. But, usually people have a very different vision of what that course is going to be. Kira: Why is this happening now that it’s so saturated? Are we in the bubble, or has the bubble popped? Because I’ve heard some people say, “The bubble has popped in the course arena.” Other people have said, “No. Not yet.” I mean, will we know? Maggie: I could argue both ways. My business partner, Brittany, and I had this discussion earlier this week. I think we’re seeing the start of the end of the bubble. I think we’re a far ... We’re in the decline. I don’t think we’re in the bubble popped. I think the thing to remember is, even if the course bubble pops, that’s a great thing because the best courses, the cream will rise to the top kind of thing. I do think we’re still a while out of these course things. I think, honestly, people want to launch a course because it sounds easy and fun. Rob: Let’s talk more about that, Maggie. If we want to launch a course, the last time we talked in the horribly lost episode, you gave us some advice that’s contrary to a lot of what we’ve heard from other people. If I want to launch a course, what are you going to tell me? Maggie: Well, the first thing I’m going to ask you is how big your email list is, and how much are you willing to invest to grow your audience, and realizing that audience growth is a little bit nebulous for a lot of us. Rob: Let’s say that’s going to be three to five hours a week. Maggie: Yeah, good luck. I hope you’ve got some money. You know what, here’s the being with Facebook ads, I hope you have a large budget for Facebook ads, because the quality of that traffic, and it’s cold traffic,

Ken McCarthy, also known as the “World’s Most Secretive Copywriter” and “Mr. Internet,” is the guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, jammed full of great advice for any copywriter who wants to grow beyond simply writing for clients. Ken may be the only guy who can talk about speed reading, the origins of the internet, Johnny Rotten, making soup, Tested Advertising Methods, and of course, copywriting—and have it all make sense in the end. Listen and learn: •  how Ken become the “world’s most secretive copywriter” •  what you have to do to “get good” at copywriting •  Ken's recommendation about how to grow your business beyond copy •  the “stone soup” method for creating a product •  how to avoid the “me too” trap—perhaps the biggest mistake people make online today •  the marketing secret Ken learned from a punk rock drummer •  the books he recommends to give you an unfair advantage over the other copywriters Told you it was jam packed with good stuff. It's all here in episode 36. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Ben Settle Eugene Schwartz Tim Ferriss AIDA Mark Graham Mark Andreessen Jim Clark Ted Nicholas The link to Ken’s interviews (updated) System Secrets Martin Atkins Nine Inch Nails Johnny Rotten Scientific Advertising Tested Advertising Methods The Robert Collier Letter Book Gary Halbert Ken’s Copy Clinic My Life in Advertising Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Kira: What if you can hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You’re invited to join the club for episode 36 as we chat with Ken McCarthy, who’s been called the world’s most secretive seven-figure copywriter, about how he has built his business from internet pioneer to where he is today, the most common mistakes writers and other business owners are making online, the books and courses he says will give our listeners a competitive advantage over other writers, and whatever else comes up as we talk. Kira: Hey, Rob. Hey, Ken, how’s it going? Ken: Hey, good. Rob: Ken, welcome to the podcast. Ken: Thank you very much, glad to be here. Rob: We’re excited to talk with you. You’ve got a wide range of experience, and I think we could probably go on for hours and hours, but since our time’s a little bit limited, let’s start with your story, where you came from and how you became the most secretive copywriter in the world. Ken: That’s a really interesting headline or tagline. That was written actually by Ben Settle. He wrote it for me, and he’s a great copywriter, and it was written to actually promote a copywriting info marketing course that I have. He wrote it based on having taken the course. Rather than me write the letter, one of my students wrote the sales letter based on what he learned from me. Now that being said, Ben was already a really good copywriter when I met him. I didn’t teach him everything he knows. He was already really good, but the letter that he wrote was based on the learnings that he got from the course. Anyway, that’s how I became the most secretive seven-figure copywriter. It’s fairly accurate. In fact, it’s exactly accurate. Very few people think of me as a copywriter, which shows how good my copy is. They just think I’m this guy who does things, but it’s all driven by copy. I wouldn’t have been able to accomplish anything without my ability to write copy, I mean, nothing. That’s the secret part of me, and then the seven-figures thing is the businesses that I’ve operated, my own businesses, they have generated way into the seven-figures. I guess it’s probably, gross is certainly eight, low eight, but eight nonetheless, and it’s all come from copy. I don’t know if I’m the world’s most secretive. There might be someone even more secretive than me, but yeah, that’s me. I always like to write. That’s sort of on one side of the equation. I just read a lot. I always wrote a lot starting at a really young age, and that cannot hurt. If you want to be a copywriter, it behooves you to notice that part of copywriting is writing. It’s right there in the world. The more you write the better. I was talking with somebody the other day about finding one’s voice in writing, and he made a really interesting point. You find your voice when you stop saying all this tilted, unnatural stuff that you think people want to hear and you start writing what you actually feel and think. The more you write the closer you’re going to get to being able to find your voice, and then after you find your voice, then you can start playing with writing in other voices, which is sort of client work. I’ve always read and I’ve always written a lot and I recommend everybody who is a copywriter, this is our fuel. I mean, this is how we get good, read, read, read, read, read, read everything, not just ad copy books and marketing and business books, but widely in psychology and history, biography, all these things are helpful. Probably everybody on this call knows of the late great Eugene Schwartz. When he was writing ad copy for a book that he was selling, and he sold lots and lots of books, he not only go through the book with a fine tooth comb and find every interesting thing about the book to create bullets to put in the sales letter, he’d read like 10, 20, 30, 40 books around the topic of the book that he was promoting to try to get some interesting tidbits and insight and flashy things to say about the topic. The more you read and the more knowledgeable you are about whatever it is you’re trying to write ad copy about, the better off you’re going to be. I always wrote a lot. Now, then I found myself stranded and broke in New York City, which is not a good thing, and unemployed, and this was when I was in my early 20s. I was 24, and I had this tech writing job in Fort Lee, New Jersey. Oh my God, what a nightmare, but anyway, it paid pretty well and that was my vision of what was possible for me at the time. I was writing technical manuals for computer software, and then the company lost the contract and they kicked us all to the curb, and here I was in Manhattan with an apartment and rent to pay and no idea of what to do. I had been pretty expert in speed reading and study skills. I had actually taught that subject for a couple of years when I got out of college. I had read, again, going back to the reading theme, I didn’t read a few books about it. I read mountains of books about it. I mean, every book ever written about speed reading and study skills, and there are a lot of them actually, I read them. I said, “Well, I’m broke, I’ve got to pay my rent, I’ve got to eat,” and all these things were extreme, like this was a really extreme situation. What I did was I made up a flyer, speed reading, and I posted it all over Broadway on the Upper West Side, which is where I was living in those days. It was a really great learning experience. I kind of knew that the more exposures the ad had the more chance I’d have for people to call, so I put the flyer everywhere. I knew that I had to have some way for people to get in touch with me, right? This was pre-internet days so I had my phone number, and I just made sure that poster was everywhere. People indeed did call and I started out by giving private lessons in my apartment, and then as time went on I got a big enough following that I could actually give classes, and that’s how I supported myself. Along the way, not ever having heard the word copywriting, not ever having heard the word direct response or direct marketing, I discovered a lot of direct response principles and a lot of copywriting principles. I learned about headlines. I learned about bullet points. I learned about clear call to action. I learned about the importance of relentless follow-up. It was very simple business. I posted posters. People would call. I would talk with them, which I guess is inbound telemarketing. Then I’d get their name and address, and then I would mail them a more detailed description of the course, which was really ad copy. I didn’t know it at the time. Then every time I would put on a new class, I would just go back to my list and mail to the entire list of people that had made inquiries again. I just washed, rinsed, and repeated over and over again. Every month I’d have a class or two, and I didn’t get rich, but I was able to live in Manhattan. I was able to pay my rent. I was able to buy books. I was able to have fun. I didn’t have to work too hard. I only taught an hour a week. I probably spent five hours a week putting up posters and an hour a week teaching. I probably could have been more ambitious and done more, but in those days I was kind of a archetypal slacker. I was very happy to only have to really work six hours a week. I guess I was the original four-hour a week guy, but I didn’t [crosstalk 00:07:23]. Rob: Yeah, Tim Ferriss could learn a lot from you. Ken: Yeah. Yeah. Well, he got that idea for that title from using AdWords testing, running different AdWords and seeing which one people clicked on. That method of using AdWords as a testing device was developed by me and my faculty at the System Seminar back in 2002. There is a connection there. Anyway, I learned a lot about functional copy, and that’s probably the most important thing any writer can get, any ad writer, any copywriter, is we’re writing functionally.

Copywriter (and photographer) Misha Hettie is in the Copywriter Club studio to talk copy and Facebook Live this week. Kira and Rob asked Misha about her business and she shared a ton of great advice, including her thoughts on: •  the importance of branding yourself as a copywriter (and not looking like everyone else) •  how she became a “brand story evangelist” •  what beginners should do to get started on Facebook Live •  what is the biggest mistake people make on Facebook Live •  her “big rock method” for creating content for Facebook •  her “don’t-miss-it” advice to everyone seeking balance in their lives As usual, there’s a ton of great information in this episode. If you’ve ever thought about using video in your business, this is don’t miss advice. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Misha’s website Misha’s about page Silicone Valley Title Generator Joanna Wiebe Todd Herman 13 Reasons Why Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about the successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s was Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the Club for Episode 35, as we chat with copywriter Misha Heady about using social media in her copywriting business, and what other writers could be doing better there. Juggling her time as a parent, writer, photographer and coach, how Facebook Live has impacted her business and spending an afternoon taking photos of Rob and me in San Antonio. Rob: Hey Misha. Kira: Hello Misha. Misha: Hey guys, how are you? Rob: We’re great, how are you? Kira: Thanks. Misha: Yeah, I’m okay. I’m having a bit of a morning here, and I don’t know if you can her my dog in the background, but I apologize if you could. Rob: We did hear a little bit but I think was might be able with cut most of that out. Misha: Okay, I’m sorry. I swear to God. She’s like, “Oh, you’re on a call, let me go freak out about something. Kira: It’s okay. I think it’s been one of those days for all three of us, which means this is going to be a great conversation. Rob: Exactly. Misha: Yeah. Kira: So, Misha, let’s start with, you know, where you come from. Because you are this multi-talented, creative, big personality, you’ve played a really big role in the copywriter club, so where did you come from. What were you doing before you were in the club as a copywriter? Misha: Well, Kira, when a man and a woman love each other very, very much ... okay, JK, terrible, terrible joke. So, where do I come from? I used to be a nine-to-fiver, like most people, and one day I lost my job, and I was like, I got to figure this out. It’s actually a longer story than that, but that’s, you know, the gist of it. And in that last position, I had been using a lot of social media tools to kind of grow people’s knowledge of our gallery. It was a tile gallery. This is like way back in the day when Flicker was like the hottest thing around. To grow people’s knowledge of our gallery, and at the same time I was studying photography more, so that is basically the short story of how I became and entrepreneur, because it’s not a very poetic story, but it’s the truth. Rob: Walk us this step-by-step. So, you lost your job, and then suddenly you weren’t a writer/photographer, whatever. As for as setting up your business, tell us more about that process. Misha: Oh, no. It was literally that next day. No, just kidding. The seedy underbelly of the story is that I was actually five months pregnant, and they closed the showroom that I was working in. And, as a dude you don’t know this, but when you are five months pregnant, like visibly pregnant, no one wants to hire you, like with a ten-foot pole. So I was in this position of, I need to make money for my family, and no one wants to hire me, so what am I going to do? It took some time to figure it out, because I was afraid to make that leap from steady paycheck to working for myself. I thank the great State of Texas for the jucy unemployment checks. That was very helpful at the time. Literally, the day I was in labor with my daughter, I bought my first domain name, and I went from there. I figured it out. Threw together same pricing packages for photography and started taking clients when my daughter was about six weeks old. Kira: You started with photography, and then how did you make your way into the copywriting world and really kind of specialize as a communicator, a strategic communicator? Misha: I wish I had really cool stories about this. I wish there was some sort of movie moment where people were chanting my name or something like that, but I actually moved. At the time that I was a photographer, I built myself up from my first client paying me like $175 to regularly selling packages that were $2,400 and above, and then I moved from Texas to California. And the problem with that is when you are a local service provider, you have to have a local clientele. When I moved, I had no one and nothing. So I spent that time blogging about photography, and how to improve your photography business. Yeah, people started hiring me for my opinion, because they’re like, “Well you grew your business in under a year, from, like I said, 175 bucks to 2,400 bucks per client. How can we do that too?” That is when I started offering communications coaching and copywriting services. It was like a totally organic thing because that’s what my people were asking me for. Rob: Yeah, I was going to say, you know, even when I go to your website, it’s photography based, but, you know, I know you as a writer because you’re showing up in our group as a writer. Do you start with the photo products and then people ask you for help with the writing, or do you actually have a way that you approach clients for copywriting as well? Misha: Now, it’s morphed into something where I keep the two completely separate. The photo business is its own animal, and then the copywriting is my main jam. Basically, I decided if I didn’t have to leave my house ever, that would be better. I could write for anyone in the world to any time of day, and not have to worry about rain, you know, or bugs, like you guys got to experience some of our Texas bugs the other day. When I approach a copywriting client, it’s from a copywriting standpoint only. I will, occasionally, like let’s say it’s a communication strategy client, I will say, the images on your site, they’re kind of problematic because it doesn’t fit your aesthetic, of whatever, so I do offer a side dish of that, but the copywriting is my main jam, if you will. Kira: Okay, and because you mentioned it, can you just share the breakdown of your services under the copy communications arm of your business? Just to give us some context as to what your putting out there in the world and how you’re making money. Misha: I know, I know, I’m supposed to niche down, I’m supposed to have a very specific answer for this, but ... Kira: No, that’s not true, that’s not true. Misha: Yeah. I don’t do that. I do web and sales copy. I do specifically, when people are in the second or third iteration of their business, and it’s not quite right. I help them create a strategy for portraying themselves. And if sometimes that looks like web copy, I may redo their website, sometimes that looks like sales copy, and we sell their program, and sometimes it looks like both because they just don’t know how to express what it is that they sell. I would say my main thing that I offer is copy with strategy. Rob: I started looking a some of the images on your website, and I’m really hungry now. Your website has this total food vibe, and it’s showing off so many of your photography skills in additional to how you help people with copywriting. Let’s talk a little bit more about the typical project for you. When a customer comes to you for help with copywriting, what’s the onboarding process look like? How do you figure out was you’re going to do with them. Just talk about that whole process of getting to know the customer and producing work for them. Misha: And you know my process is very organic. It’s not very contrived. I don’t have a lot of documents for people to fill out or anything. But because of that, I spend a lot of time talking with them directly, so that’s a lot of phone calls, a lot of Skype, a lot of note taking on my part. What I’m doing when we have that conversation is I’m not just saying, tell me about your program, tell me about your business, I’m saying, “So tell me how your husband. And when you guys were in Argentina, what did you think about the culture?” I ask this questions that have nothing to do with their program or business, because I want of hear the actual cadence of their voice. I want to hear their personality, because to me it’s very important to be able to portray that in their copy. I feel like if you have someone that you’re looking to hire, and let’s say their website is very hyper, and very out there, and very in your face, and then you get them on the phone, and they’re like, “Hey, so”, that creates serious mismatch, and when there’s that moment of confusion for the client, they’re not going to get hired. So, I spend most of my time talking to them about stuff that has nothing to do with their business. And then I produce their copy for them, and we have another meeting. If they’re happy,

LA copywriter, actor, rapper, and comedian, Jason Pickar, is in the club for the 34th episode of the podcast. This episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast comes with a warning label (for mentions of a controlled substances that are still illegal in most states). Jason's an energetic writer with a portfolio full of engaging (and award-winning) work for his clients. In addition to his career path, Rob and Kira asked him about: • How to get on the stage at The Price is Right (and meet Drew Carey) • How Jason landed his first job (then another and another) in the ad agency world • His creative process—an idea he stole from improv • His “machine gun approach” to making sure his ideas get picked by the client • Writing 100 headlines in an hour • Why companies do “branding” • How he stays creative, and • How comedy and improv strengthen his copywriting Jason’s agency experience is different from most of the copywriters we've interviewed for the show. So load up your iPod (or other listening device) and pull out your notebook. This one's a good one. You can also click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory The Price is Right Jason on the Price is Right Deutch Drew Carey McCann Erickson MRM TribalDDB ShaveEverywhere.com BodyGroom Monologues Break Media (now Defy Media) Weber Shandwick BrandCenter The Creative Circus Miami Ad School Bookshop LA AdHouse AgencySpy Gilmore Girls Jason’s Twitter Jason’s Instagram Jason’s Facebook Freewordsfree.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That’s what Rob and I do every week at the Copywriter Club podcast. Rob: You’re invited to join the club for Episode 34, as a chat with copywriter Jason Pickar about writing for television, working on brands like Dr. Pepper with Madison Avenue ad agencies, how acting and comedy inform his writing, and how to get on the game show The Price Is Right. Kira: Hey Rob, hey Jason, how’s it going? Rob: Hey guys. Jason: Hey. It’s going great. Good intro. I’m down with that intro. Rob: Yeah, let’s get to it. Jason: Yeah. Kira: Okay. All right. So I think, Jason, a great place to start is with The Price Is Right. First of all, everyone needs to watch the video of you on that show. I just watched it before jumping on here. It’s ridiculous, and Jason’s ridiculous, and it’s hilarious. How did you get on the show, and what was the catalyst for even jumping into that arena? Jason: You know what? That is a very appropriate question, because I appeared on The Price Is Right on the same day that I picked up my severance check from an old agency I worked at, Deutsch. The catalyst was, quite literally, that whole thing had kind of fallen apart. The creative directors, I’d gone through four of them. Finally, we landed on one. My art director had left. It wasn’t the right fit, so we parted ways after two and a half, three years or so. Then I was at home, just watching TV. I was like, “Oh, man, I’ve always loved The Price Is Right. I’m living in Los Angeles, there’s no reason I can’t go on The Price Is Right.” So I went online, I got a ticket. You go to the studio at, like, 5:00 a.m. Hours and hours and hours before you’re even supposed to be there. I was, like, the second one in line. The key is to just have extremely high energy, be extremely friendly. In the line, they put a couple ringers in there. They’re like, a friendly old woman who is actually kind of notifying the producers who’s good to be on TV, and things like that. Rob: Wait, wait, wait. I’ve got to interrupt here, because, “Really? They do?” Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not that early… Rob: How did you know that? Jason: ... but later in the day. Because you go online, and you go to articles, “How to Get on The Price Is Right,” and they mention that. I wouldn’t mention it if I hadn’t had a really nice conversation with this older, African American woman, and she had kind of implied that I would definitely be on the show. Basically, everyone waits in line, and then they let you in the CBS studios, and you keep waiting in line. You start filling out paperwork. Then they give you a name tag with your name written on it in the very special The Price Is Right way, and then everyone meets in groups of six, with the producer. You talk to a producer for 30 seconds to a minute, and they ask you some questions. Then that’s when they decide fully whether you’re going to be on the show or not. Rob: So you’re meeting with the producer. Are you acting kind of crazy, or just sort of being ... Because the clip of you on the show, you’re a little over the top. Jason: I mean, that’s what they want, right? Kira: Yeah. It makes great TV. Jason: Yeah. I went in there knowing that they want someone with a lot of energy. I actually drank a 5 Hour Energy right before walking into the theater, because I had been waiting since 5:00 a.m., and by then it was like noon. Yeah. I mean, they want someone with a lot of energy. It’s a lot of emotion. You get called on down. I had joked with these guys in this row a couple rows ahead of me that if I get called down, I’m going to just run right to them, and give them a huge hug. That’s exactly what happened. It also helps to have a specially designed t-shirt for the show. I had this super bright orange shirt. You want a bright color that will match the settings of The Price Is Right. Then I had an art director friend of mine design that ice climber guy from the ice climber game, except with Drew Carey’s face, and it said “Yodelayhee Drew.” Another friend of mine, who has a t-shirt company, screen printed it for me. When you work in advertising, you meet a lot of people with a lot of skills that can come in handy for things like getting on The Price Is Right. Rob: I feel like we should probably just end the show. We’re good. So much value already, right? We’ll link to the clip of you on The Price Is Right, because it is funny, it’s fun to watch, and it’s one of those things that anybody who’s watched The Price Is Right when they’re home sick, or off of work or whatever ... What a great career aspiration. Kira: Before we move on from The Price Is Right, though, what were you thinking as you were in it? Were you just so pumped up, or were you just like, “I can’t believe this is happening?” Or were you just caught up in the moment? Jason: It was all adrenaline. I get called up, and I run down, and they put an item up, and in my head 747 pops up, because it’s the plane. I’m like, “Sure, 747. That’s the way to go.” Then that was the right one. Which is, it’s nice, because I won that prize, but the next prize up for grabs was two iPhones ... I know the price of that, 1198 ... Then that’s a chance to win a car. Unfortunately, I did not have that opportunity. A man named had that opportunity, who you see pop up later when he makes it almost impossible for me to out-spin him. Rob: That was a tragedy. You missed the dollar by one space, right? Jason: I missed what I needed by one space both times. Rob: Yeah. Heartbreaking. Jason: Yeah. It hurts. Rob: Heartbreaking. Okay, so let’s back up a little bit, Jason, because your career didn’t start with The Price Is Right. How did you get into copywriting? You’ve done something very different from most of the people we’ve talked to, and that is, you’ve worked at several agencies. We’re really curious about the process of working at an agency, getting hired by an agency. So tell us a little bit about your career path to where you are now. Jason: Everyone at agencies has completely different ways that they came in, and completely different stories of how their career went. I can only give advice based on me and what I’ve seen, but it started in college. I thought I wanted to be a history major, maybe pre-law. I was studying film as well. One night I got super high. So terribly high that it’s kind of like, when you’re still beginning to smoke pot, and you’re like, “What drug did I take? Was there cocaine it that? I don’t know what’s going on. Did I accidentally smoke PCP?” It’s that weird, like, “I’m not happy about this.” So I was in a fetal position on my top bunk bed in my dorm room, and I had this realization that I didn’t want to be a lawyer. The only reason I thought I wanted to be a lawyer is because I like arguing with people and convincing people of my opinions. Wouldn’t it be more fun to convince people of opinions in going the film route, going the entertainment route? So I was like, “Oh, I could do advertising.” I immediately starting taking all these marketing classes, and film classes. I was a film major. I kind of put those together. Then I got really lucky, because I have an older brother, and that’s helpful because if you have an older sibling who’s gone to college before, maybe they know someone who can help you out in your career. His friend was an art director at McCann Erickson, and he got me an interview for an internship at McCann Erickson in New York between my junior and senior years of college. I took that interview. I pat myself on the back, I killed it. I got into this internship program. They had 20 or 30 interns across media, and creative, and account and all that sort of stuff. I, again, got really lucky. I got put into this group where it was me and an art director named Jay. We were working directly with two ECDs,

Our first guest to make an encore appearance on the club podcast is Canadian copywriter, Ry Schwartz, who just flew in from Costa Rica in time to talk with Rob and Kira about: • the new “product” Ry is launching soon with his girlfriend • using masterminds to meet potential clients • how he deals with “freak out” • how he vets clients (sometimes he asks them to sing with him) • how he conducts his R&D (and what client work has to do with it) • what he does to get people to take “uncomfortable action” • how he invoices for “giving a damn” • what he would do today if he had to start over from scratch There’s so much good stuff in this episode that we’ve already listened to it three times before we released it. Don’t miss all the great advice Ry has to share. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Copy School Joanna Wiebe Marc Angelo Capalla Superhero Academy The Wonder Twins The Babysitters Club Futurism High Existence The other Ry Schwartz podcast Marian Schembari Carpool Karoke Sam Woods TGIFridays Amy Porterfield Tarzan Kay Gabby Bernstein Jeff Walker Ryan Levesque Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for Episode 33 as we chat with copywriter Ry Schwartz about what he would do if he had to start over from scratch, how he thinks through email sequences, how to focus when you’re freaking out, and vetting new clients. Joins conversation in progress... Kira: Well, maybe we can start there. We’re not doing an official intro, I don’t think. I want to hear more about your travels and where you’ve been and why you’ve been traveling and what you’ve been doing off the radar. Ry: Yes. Yes, so I’ve been really on the road since mid-February. I’ve been location-independent for three or four years right now. I never really took advantage. I get very romantic about the idea of travel, but in practical terms, I can’t leave my house without packing for Cliff Bars, just because I have this intense fear of starvation. It really took a lot to pull the trigger on that, but it’s something that my girlfriend, Sue, and I were talking about for two years, just even considering relocating to Costa Rica for the winter, because who wants to be in Montreal in the winter? Then yeah, I finally pulled the trigger. I surprised her with this three-week trip, part of it at this mastermind. A few of the things are already taken care of for us and we don’t have to pack too many Cliff Bars. Yeah, we ventured down there in mid-February. It was initially supposed to be on the backend, at the end of the launch I was doing with the Copy Hackers. We were going to launch Copy School. I was going to create my new program within in, and then we were just going to celebrate with this three-week cathartic release in the jungle. As luck would have it, our launch dates got pushed back. I was actually in the jungle trying to get any kind of Wi-Fi possible in any location possible in order to write emails for the launch and just work with that pivot. God bless Joanna for being patient with that. I’m like, “I literally am in the middle of the jungle. There is no Wi-Fi present. The only Wi-Fi providers are three hours away and they really don’t give a crap about my product launch right now.” Yeah, that was part of the adventure was working on that and getting things lined up while also enjoying and submitting to the jungle experience and being present to that. That was super wild. To make matters even crazier, and this is where the story really takes some interesting turns, is our first live webinars to launch our new program were literally scheduled for the day we were getting back from Costa Rica, so all the work was there. Three days before we are scheduled to come back, my girlfriend starts not feeling so well. She’s going to hit me when listens to this. Kira: Oh, boy. Ry: I’m so getting in trouble, but ... Okay. Maybe she won’t listen to this. I’ll just make sure she doesn’t listen to it. This is super, super intimate information here, but yeah, she starts throwing up wildly, not your typical I ate too much at that buffet kind of throwing up, like the nasty stuff. Yeah, I was like, “I don’t know, maybe she caught some foreign jungle virus and she’ll be fine because immune systems are awesome and we’ll be okay,” but it just kept persisting. At this point, I got to add to the story, we actually left the jungle. The later part of our trip was actually meeting, this was a terrible idea on my end, but it was to move from the craziness of the jungle and this festival we were at in the last few days where people are just doing all sorts of crazy things and staying up until 3 a.m., listening to crazy music. Moving from that setting to Laguna Beach where we were actually meeting up with my parents and my sister for three days of family time. It was during this family time that Sue really was having this weird post-jungle virus which intuitively I was like, “Yeah, I don’t know, this might not just be a jungle virus.” I Ubered to a CVS, bought a pregnancy test. We had no reason to think that a pregnancy test would be needed. We were reverse trying. We were un-trying to get pregnant, and then, yeah, it was like, “Pee on the stick and see what happens,” just put that aside easier, and it came back positive. Of course, I’m like- Kira: Oh. Ry: Yeah, I know, gasp. Then like... Rob: Wait, are you announcing to the world on our podcast? Ry: I think this is the official world announcement. Rob: Wow. Kira: This was unexpected. Ry: There was total denial, complete denial, because once again, we were reverse trying. There was no reason to expect this, so take the same Uber back to the same CVS and get eight more brands of pregnancy test, pretty much. Kira: Oh, my goodness. That sounds about right. Ry: Just like, “Drink a lot of water because we’re going to be doing this all afternoon.” Yeah, one by one, they all started coming back positive. There’s this total freak-out. The immediate feeling is we felt like rebellious 17-year-olds that just screwed out their lives and can’t go to college anymore. Yeah, that was like just this moment of complete shock and overwhelm, and then in two days, we’re launching this new course. I’m giving birth to something. My girlfriend is eventually going to give birth to something. So much freaking birth happening right now and we were still stuck in Laguna Beach. We raced back to Montreal, still in denial about the pregnancy, so we go to the hospital, a walk-in clinic there, and I’m literally preparing for tomorrow’s launch webinar in the waiting room trying to see what my fate holds, because I still don’t believe all nine pregnancy tests, because those things are totally unreliable. Rob: Because, yeah, why? Yeah. Ry: Yeah. Yeah, and it turns out ... You need someone in a lab coat to say you’re pregnant before you finally believe it, but we get that confirmation. My world totally flips, total overwhelm, come home, somehow try to process that while processing our big launch the next day, yeah, get on that webinar, I think, on two hours sleep, and it all somehow worked out. What I learned out of that process is that, after all these years, I still have the capacity to freak-out. I am not this unbreakable thing. I’m like, “Whoa, this is that stress thing people talk about all the time, like, ‘Oh, that’s where it lands.” It was just super heavy, but we did it. Yeah, fast-forward, three weeks later, she is definitely confirmed pregnant. Kira: Oh, my goodness. Ry: It’s awesome, and I’m feeling really good about that. The launch went really well. Rob: Wow. Ry: We have a bunch of amazing students in the program and just having a blast doing that. Yes, total crazy post-Costa Rican turmoil. Yeah, the jungle does crazy things to you, apparently, like pregnancy. Rob: I am so staying away from the jungle. Kira: I’m not going to the jungle. Ry: Yes, stay away from the jungle. Kira: I will not be going to the jungle anytime soon. Ry: Yeah, finally, here we are, I’m finally able to take a deep breath and be like, “That was unexpected,” but it worked out. Yes, that is what I’ve been up to. My life is pretty boring. Kira: Whoa. Ry: Yeah. Rob: That’s crazy. I have 15 questions that I want to ask, and they now all feel really small and insignificant. I mean, we should just end it here. Call it the birth announcement podcast, and we’re done. Ry: Let’s call it a day. Yeah, put it in like the bonus material. You know what? I’m so ready for small and insignificant in life. I’m like, “Stop giving me the big tsunami waves. Give me something manageable that I could actually stay on my surfboard.” I’m good with small and insignificant. I like small and insignificant. Rob: Let’s do it then. You went to Costa Rica as part of a mastermind. Ry: Yes. Rob: Tell us about that. We’ve talked about masterminding on the podcast several times with different guests. Tell us, what do you get out of a mastermind and why did you go? I know a lot of times, masterminds are secretive. You’re not allowed to share the stuff that’s going on in them, but the extent that you can, and you’re being open today, tell us about it. Ry: Yeah, that’s a great question.

This is a special "in-between-isode" with details about our new program for new(ish) copywriters called The Copywriter Accelerator. It's all here: who it's for (and who it's not for), what we're going to cover, the bonuses you'll get, how much it costs and details about the 90-day money-back guarantee. For more details, check out www.thecopywriteraccelerator.com. Click the play button below. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Accelerator Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Sorry, no transcript for this show.

Copywriter Sarah Grear stops by the clubhouse to share how she’s built a successful copywriting business over the past five years. Sarah’s clients include course creators and entrepreneurs about to launch their products. As usual, Rob and Kira ask questions to pull back the curtain and reveal the tactics and ideas that have made her successful, including: •  The two-year process she used to identify her niche •  How she slowly priced herself out of doing websites (and what she charges now) •  Why she does “live edits” with her clients •  How she creates a copywriting experience for the people she works with •  What she did to land a speaking gig at Rick Mulready’s event and Social Media Week •  How she used networking to get 80% of her clients when she was just getting started •  Why she created a $1000 course and lowered the price since it launched •  How she takes four months off a year (and doesn't lose clients or revenue). We say this a lot, but this is another must-listen episode for anyone who wants to grow a successful writing business. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory The Copywriter Accelerator The Well-fed Writer The Law of Attraction Rick Mulready Pat Flynn Amy Porterfield James Wedmore Social Media Week Copy Camp Maggie Patterson Streak Sarah’s Giving Page 826LA Sarah’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob:Before we get to this week’s interview, we want to tell you about The Copywriter Accelerator, a new 12-week program designed to help newish copywriters get serious about their business. This isn’t a copywriting clinic. Instead, we’ll work with you to improve the business side of your business, things like your onboarding process, choosing a niche, building a brand, and being a smarter business owner. This isn’t a video course. It’s hands-on training with personal access to both Kira and me. To learn more, go to thecopywriteraccelerator.com. Now, on to the show. Kira: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Rob: You’re invited to join the club for episode 32 as we chat with freelance copywriter, Sarah Grear about writing for healers and creative souls, how she landed a speaking gig at Social Media Week, working with her coach and a team, and taking branding vacations. Kira: Hey, Rob. Hey, Sarah. Sarah: Hey, guys. I love it. Rob: Hey, Sarah. Sarah: I’m so excited. Rob: We’re excited to have you. Kira: I think Sarah, a great place to start, and this what I’m actually really curious to know, where did you come from? What were you doing before you started your copywriting venture? Sarah: Cool. Yeah. I totally want to share my story with you. Before I do that, I just really quickly want to acknowledge both you and Rob for putting together this amazing podcasting group. I just want to say when I first started getting my copywriting business going, I actually, the number one referral source for my business was other copywriters, and I don’t think that gets talked about enough, so part of the way I build my business is what you guys are creating, so I’m just so grateful for communities like this, and I just wanted to say thank you for that. Rob: Thank you. That’s nice of you to say. Sarah: Yeah. Totally. The way I got started in copywriting and where I came from, I actually went to art school. I promise this will all make sense in a minute, but I went to art school. I got my degree in ceramics, and I did all types of art like ... Kira: Wow. Sarah: Yeah, pretty much everything under the rainbow I got my hands into. One of the things that happened was I actually read the book, The Well-Fed Writer by Peter Bowerman. When I read that book, I started to fall in love with the whole online marketing world and I was already doing some travel blogging, so I was telling stories online, and then I realized, “Oh, if I pivot this, I could actually start telling other people’s stories and get paid for it handsomely”, so I was like, “Yeah. I’m game for that.” When I found out that I could do the online writing, I shifted to copywriting and just really fell in love with and became addicted to the whole marketing world as it does, and since then, I’ve just been building relationships with people, building relationships with my clients, and my business has grown from giving a lot of value to people along the way. Rob: That’s really interesting, so you’ve actually got a pretty specific niche of people that you target. At least from what I can tell on your website and the things that you do on Facebook, you target, let’s call them ‘Creative souls’. Tell us a little bit about how you came up with that as the place where you really wanted to focus your efforts? Sarah: Yeah. I work with mainly creatives and healers now, but when I got started, I wanted to focus on just entrepreneurs in general. When I looked at when I had two years in business, I had a lot of historical data to look back at, and I was like, “Oh, I really love working with these creatives and people who fall under the healing umbrella”, so it could really be anything from I’ve had clients who teach law of attraction, so the self-care type of healing to people who also are coaches and they’re health coaches, all different types of healers. I just realized that the more I learned about what they were doing, I just fell in love with it and decided to focus in that area. It’s funny because I didn’t come out of the business womb like knowing exactly who my ideal client was, and I think that’s okay to give yourself a couple of years to experiment and figure out where you want to focus, and then look back and say, “What was the most fun for me?”, and that’s how I landed on those ideal clients. Then, over time, I started out writing websites, just general home about sales service page, whatever contact page, whatever people needed, and then I really fell in love with the copy conversion and doing launches because I realized that it was directly tied to their revenue, and when you directly tie what you’re creating to the outcome of them getting revenue in their business, it changes the game. They’re willing to invest more, and I priced myself out of doing websites now because I started at a certain price, and now, people don’t necessarily want to pay that just for a website when they don’t see the outcome of getting leads and getting sales and all of that which is totally fine for me. I still throw it out there. If they want to hire me to do the website, great, but now I realize people are way more willing to invest in their launches, and so I focus on that. Kira: That’s interesting. I feel the same way with websites, so I’m curious to know what you were charging if you don’t mind sharing with websites that priced you out of that market just because I know there are a lot of copywriters that are working on websites or want to get into that space, and they may appreciate that frame of reference. Sarah: Yeah. Of course. When I first started, I remember I was doing about pages for like 375. $375, and I would do three meetings, two revisions, and then slowly, I got it to the point where people are paying for an about page for 575, and eventually, I had to phase that out too. I feel like people ... When I started to phase that out, it changed to charging between 1,500 to 2,000 for up to five webpages, then I just couldn’t do that anymore, so it got to the point of charging 3,500 and up. Kira: Yeah. Sarah: That was like the minimum to get started with me in around four pages, and even then, people are having a tough time swallowing that, which is fine with me. Rob: Yeah. It’s a good place to be when you charge the rates that you like and you can take the clients that you want and turn away the others. You do some interesting things with the way you talk about the packages that you have of your services, and you call them ‘Branding vacations’. Tell us a little bit about the thinking behind that and why you phrase it like that. Sarah: As I’ve shared earlier with the travel blogging, I really looked back at my own personal experiences to inform my brand storytelling, and a big part of that was travel, so I also knew that that really appeals to my ideal clients. They love the idea of travel. Like anytime I ask a room of people, “Who doesn’t love travel here?”, nobody raises their hand, which is a confirmation for me that I was on the right path in putting together those packages, so I positioned in this branding vacations because I do work in the intensive style where I try to get things done in three to five business days, so for me, it was like it really was like going on a vacation. I got to focus on one or two clients at a time and I always let them know like “It’s just you and I for this period of time and we get things done quickly so that you can go ahead and launch it as soon as possible”, and they love it. Kira: I’m really drawn to your packages as well because like everyone else, I like vacation and I actually was ready to purchase it because it’s such a great brand and it creates the right vibe and very inviting. How do you run intensive style projects? I have no idea if that would even work for me. I’m sure it wouldn’t work for everyone, but what happens behind the scenes to make that work and successful? Sarah: Yeah.

Kate Toon joins The Copywriter Club Podcast for episode 31—all the way from Australia. She co-hosts Hot Copy, which we’ve jokingly referred to as “the second best copywriter” podcast. She casually throws out words like “scuppered” and “rubbish” and “bloomin’” as she talks with Rob and Kira about: • the backdoor she opened to land a copywriter job at Ogilvy • the “agency” skills she learned that she applies in her freelance work every day • why freelancing is so much harder than working at an agency • why creating products isn’t the path to easy street you might think it is • how she created products and courses—all while working for her clients • why she’s taking a year off from reading blog posts and articles And there’s much more in this episode to tickle your ears. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Ogilvy Mad Men The Clever Copywriting School Kate’s SEO Course Rand Fishkin Mustache wax Hootsuite Zencastr Moz Neil Patel QuickSprout Oprah Winfrey Netflix Crazy Ex-Girlfriend This American Life Ira Glass The Sydney Morning Herald The Misfit Entrepreneur (Kate’s Book) Kate’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at the Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the Club for Episode 31 as we chat with copywriter SEO expert and misfit entrepreneur, Kate Tune about creating three successful businesses without a plan, SEO copywriting, running a podcast and writing conference and how to rock a hula hoop. Rob: Hey Kira, hey Kate. Kate: Hello. Kira: Hey Rob, hey Kate, thanks for being here. Kate: Thank you for that lovely intro. Rob: We try to change it up with every guest and you’ve called yourself the misfit entrepreneur so we thought, yeah it was appropriate. Kate: Thanks, yeah. And you managed to drop the hula hooping in, as well which is awesome. Rob: Exactly. Kira: Well Kate, I think a great place to start is with how you became an SEO copywriter consultant and then we can talk about your job as a chatline operator later. Kate: Yeah, so I probably went a fairly traditional route. I’m not sure everybody’s route to copywriting is so different, isn’t it? So, I went to university and did an utterly pointless degree in history, Roman history or something like, can’t remember. And then I left and I desperately wanted to be a magazine journalist but I had racked up so much debt at university that I had to get a real job as a, pretty much a secretary. Then I worked in various jobs, in events, in publishing and eventually got hired by this weird agency that was building something called websites, way back. I’m showing my age, now. I worked there for a few years and then I moved over to Australia and managed to get a job at Ogilvy, which is a big advertising agency in America and also it’s over here in Australia, as well. From there I transitioned into being a copywriter and worked on lots of big brands, global brands and kind of hated it, kind of didn’t like the agency life and as I got older, it got harder. Then eventually I got with child and could no longer be an agency copywriter because you have to work like 70 hours a day. So I gave it all up and became a freelance copywriter. Whoo hoo! That was a potted history. Rob: Let’s unpack that jus a little bit. We talk quite a bit with copywriters who are doing freelance stuff but we haven’t talked to a whole lot of agency copywriters. Tell us about working in an agency and maybe even, what it takes for a copywriter to get a job at an agency. Kate: Look, I think it’s, I don’t think it’s easy. I think my route was very indirect. When I first started out, that was, you know, I was like, “Wow, I’d like to work for an advertising agency.” And I did get a job in an agency in London. Again, as a receptionist. So I had to go in as kind of like a non-creative person. But if you’ve seen Mad Men, not everybody gets to move from reception to being a copywriter. Rob: Only the best. Kate: Only the best. I was literally that character, I’ve forgotten her name now. But, so and then I left and then with Ogilvy, I just was in the right place at the right time. Australia was a little bit behind the eight ball with digital and advertising and my little experience counted a lot so I kind of got in at the ground level but again, as a producer, so I was actually managing projects. And then after a couple of years, I actually took about a 60% pay cut to be a copywriter. Because that’s what I really wanted to do. So I lopped, they took 60% off my salary. Nice. And I started as a junior copywriter and kind of started working up. If you [were 00:04:14] straight out of college, I mean, gosh it’s hard. It’s super competitive. In Australia, there are a few kind of awards and schools that you can go through to get in. I think there’s a huge amount of nepotism, you know who you know. Ii don’t know. I actually wouldn’t be able to give anybody any tips because the problem is, all your creative ideas, everyone else has got those creative ideas because they’re all creative people. So, you know, maybe a sideways route would be my suggestion. Get in there, get into the agency whatever way you can and then show your skills because obviously there’s lots of opportunities to kind of shine, if you take them. Kira: What did you learn from the agency life at such a well known agency, especially in your different roles as a producer and then a copywriter? What did you learn that really helped give you an edge in your freelance business? Kate: Lots of things. I think as a producer, I learned how to project manage, which is a huge part of copywriting, really underestimated. Being able to work out time lines, work out budgets, manage multiple projects, keep projects moving so there’s no dead time. So you can manage multiple projects and keep them all working for you, which is super important if you’re a copywriter and you want to earn a decent living. You know, you need to be able to have lots of jobs on the go. I learned to deal with lots of egos, lots of people in agencies have enormous egos and so it teaches you a lot of diplomacy, which I think is very useful when dealing with clients. And then as a copywriter, I think you know, I used to write an awful lot of ad campaigns and tag lines and one liners for animated gifts. Remember animated gifts were all the rage back then. And coming up with really simple metaphors for describing things. And patterns and systems and methodologies so that you’re never really starting with a blank page. It’s all about starting with some kind of template or structure and filling in the blanks and what you end up with isn’t perfect, but it gives you something to start working with. I think a lot of people might think that agency copywriters sit around on bean bags having epiphanies. They don’t. They’re just like you. They work with formulas, they look at old ads, they look at old campaigns. They do brainstorm, which is, I think something that we poor, lonely freelancers don’t get to do. But a lot of it is quite formulaic, you know? Kira: Well, I was just going to ask you, what type of methodologies they typically use at ad agencies because I love that idea of you’re never really starting with a blank page. Do you recall any of the processes or any tips that could help the lonely freelancer who does not have a team to brainstorm with? Kate: Yes, I mean the process would usually be, you know go and take your briefing with the dreaded account managers and the clients and then you’d go away and there’d always be a period of like, sort of self reflection where you’d sit at your own desk and try and pull something out of your bottom, which was usually not particularly fruitful. The next thing would be that you’re often partnered with a designer or an art director. So it was always a copywriter/art director because a lot of what we were doing was adverts and ads. But also even long copy, you know, can be influenced by design. But also just another creative mind. So then you would sit and you would just kind of say stupid things to each other. Like come up with ideas, like what about we use a pig? Or what about we have a hedgehog? Well, I don’t like hedgehogs. Well, and no idea was a bad idea, you just write everything down. But then in terms of cheats, as it were, I’m just remembering my own creative director would say, “There’s lots of easy ways to do ads, you know. Think of metaphors, like road sign metaphors.” And you see this done to death, like “Stop” stop sign. Or “Give Way”. Using this in your ad copy or just thinking of an overarching concept and a metaphor. So, you’re writing about, I don’t know, dentistry. But you’re going to do the whole thing relating to ice cream. This is a terrible analogy. I should have prepped a better one. So you’re going to talk about, you’re just going to use one overarching concept or idea for the whole thing and that will give you your concept. So here’s a better example, a copywriter I’m working with is coming up with a new way of branding herself. And she’s going to use a kind of makeover metaphor, like a plastic surgery metaphor. So she’s, you know, slicing and dicing copy. Once you have that metaphor,