A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar

Text us your questions!Our friend Jeff Cook—writer, podcaster, and Enneagram systems thinker—is back with us to discuss his recent book (volume 1 of a series because of course it is): about the Enneagram. (See our first conversation from S03E26 here.)Jeff explains how the Enneagram names the “why” beneath our choices, conflicts, faith, and love. Randy shares how the framework has sharpened his self-awareness and softened his edges. And Kyle characteristically pushes back a bit on evidence, parsimony, and the risk of thick theories outrunning data. The result is a lively, generous exploration that treats the Enneagram as a language for motive rather than a box for behavior.Jeff starts by laying a foundation—head, heart, and body—as an ancient scaffold echoed in philosophy, spirituality, and clinical practice. From there, he maps how core desires show up under stress and security and why the hardest question, “What do you want?”, may be the doorway to identity and change. We pressure-test the model where it matters most: relationships. Randy gets a live read on Eight-with-Six dynamics—strength meeting vigilance, autonomy meeting reassurance—and why "body types" experience control and agency in ways that feel physical, not theoretical. We also tackle the cottage-industry problem, academic standards, and how to treat the Enneagram like a Wittgensteinian ladder: use it when it helps, set it aside when it doesn’t.If you’ve been burned by rigid labels, you’ll appreciate our insistence on flexibility, nuance, and practical outcomes. If you’re curious about real-life gains, Jeff’s focus on gifts will resonate: name what you uniquely bring—clarity, courage, steadiness, empathy—and aim it outward. Useful, not ultimate. Humble, not hazy.Enjoy the conversation? Subscribe, share with a friend who loves a good debate, and leave a review on Apple or Spotify.=====Want to support us?The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal. Other important info: Rate & review us on Apple & Spotify Follow us on social media at @PPWBPodcast Watch & comment on YouTube Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com Cheers!

In this engaging discussion, theologian Miroslav Volf, author of The Cost of Ambition, explores how the desire to surpass others can undermine our well-being. He distinguishes healthy aspiration from harmful superiority, emphasizing agape—unconditional love—as the foundation for true excellence. Volf discusses how Christ's humility, as expressed in Philippians 2, challenges competitiveness. He warns that obsession with comparison devalues our unique gifts and calls for a return to mere humanity, urging love and honor for all beyond mere achievement.

Political strategist Mike Madrid dives into the evolving role of Latino voters in American politics. He discusses the Lincoln Project's strategy against Trumpism and personal sacrifices made for political principles. Madrid highlights how Democrats have adopted conservative policies but still miss the mark with Latino voters. He explores the influence of a maternal Catholic culture on political dynamics and warns of escalating political violence. Ultimately, he emphasizes the need for honest local conversations to foster healing and connection.

Dawne Moon, a sociologist and co-author of Choosing Love, teams up with philosopher Theresa Tobin to delve into their extensive research on conservative LGBTQ+ Christians. They explore the concept of 'sacramental shame' and its impact on acceptance in religious communities. The discussion highlights the challenges of expecting celibacy from queer individuals, the complexities of intersectionality, and the evolving meaning of conservatism within these contexts. They emphasize the need for humility and the vital link between love and justice in advocacy efforts.

Laurie Johnson, a political philosopher and president of the Maurin Academy, dives into America's culture wars and their roots in capitalism's impact on community. She explains how the meanings of 'liberal' and 'conservative' have drifted, creating confusion in political discourse. Laurie emphasizes that economic insecurity fosters resentment, leading to scapegoating and extremism. She advocates for churches to move beyond superficial connections, suggesting practical community initiatives to rebuild social ties and encourage genuine cooperation.

Text us your questions!Ready to transform your relationship with the Bible? Zach Lambert, pastor of Restore Church in Austin and author of Better Ways to Read the Bible, offers a healing pathway for those wounded by scripture in this candid conversation.Growing up in a Southern Baptist megachurch during the "fundamentalist takeover," Lambert experienced firsthand how the Bible can be weaponized. Disagreeing with the pastor's interpretation is often treated as disagreeing with God. This authoritarian approach created spiritual trauma that eventually led Zach to seek healthier ways of engaging with scripture.Zach challenges the notion that there's one "plain reading" of the Bible, noting that everyone interprets scripture through various lenses. Some lenses—like literalism, apocalypse, moralism, and hierarchy—often produce harm, while others—focused on Jesus, context, flourishing, and fruitfulness—lead to healing. The key differentiator is the fruit they produce. "We should be asking with any given biblical interpretation: is it producing more love, joy, peace, patience, kindness in me and in the world around me?"The conversation tackles difficult topics like biblical violence, biblical inerrancy (see our episode on this topic here), the subjugation of women, and LGBTQ+ inclusion, offering fresh perspectives without abandoning the text. Zach suggests we view scripture as John the Baptist pointing to Jesus rather than an end in itself: "Jesus didn't say 'here is the truth, believe it.' He said 'I am the truth, follow me.'" This shift from a text-centered to a person-centered faith can transform our approach to scripture.Whether you're deconstructing harmful theology, seeking to reintegrate the Bible into your spiritual life, or simply curious about healthier interpretive frameworks, this episode provides thoughtful guidance for transforming scripture from a weapon of harm into a tool of healing.=====Want to support us?The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal. Other important info: Rate & review us on Apple & Spotify Follow us on social media at @PPWBPodcast Watch & comment on YouTube Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com Cheers!

What happens to prayer when we rethink our spirituality? The hosts share their journeys from structured to more fluid prayer practices, debating its effectiveness and emotional significance. They explore the paradoxes of divine omniscience and human prayer, and how it evolves amid personal doubt and grief. Contemplative approaches are discussed, drawing parallels with mindfulness and encouraging listeners to discover their own meaningful ways to connect with the divine. Join them in this introspective conversation on the complexities of prayer.

Paula Stone Williams, a Reverend and author, shares her compelling journey of transitioning from a successful evangelical leader to embracing her true identity as a transgender woman. She discusses the staggering loss of privilege and professional ties, revealing the stark realities of male privilege versus her new experiences. Surprisingly, a deeper spirituality emerged from her rejection, evolving into a faith rich in intuition and mystery. Paula's insights challenge societal narratives on gender identity, advocating for authentic connections and open dialogue.

Text us your questions!How did the role of "pastor's wife" replace ordination for women in church history? Is the news that there was women's ordination in church history hitting you unexpectedly right now? It's cool, we get it; take a moment and come back when you're ready.Historian and actual pastor's wife Beth Allison Barr returns for a potentially revelatory conversation about her latest book, Becoming the Pastor's Wife: How Marriage Replaced Ordination as a Woman's Path to Ministry. Drawing from extensive research, including archival discoveries and reading 150 pastor's wife books/manuals (yes, that's a real genre), Beth uncovers how the glorification of this role coincided with efforts to restrict women's ordination.This interview weaves eye-opening historical findings with deeply personal experiences. Beth shares stories of pastors' wives—herself included—being treated as church property, essentially an extension of her husband and his ministry rather than a full person. These aren't isolated incidents; they are systematic experiences faced by countless pastors' wives who are expected to provide unpaid ministerial labor while supporting their husband's careers.Perhaps most striking is the historical evidence that women served in virtually every ministry role men did for the first thousand years of Christianity—including as deacons, bishops, and preachers. The rise of complementarian theology—spoiler warning if you're not a regular listener of this podcast—is a modern development that deliberately ignores this rich history.While Beth doesn't shy away from the harm these practices have caused, she leaves us with hope borrowed from Doctor Who's beloved Van Gogh episode: while we can't undo past damage, we can "add to the good pile" by recognizing the truth, stopping harmful practices, and building a better future where women's gifts are fully welcomed in ministry. This is a conversation that will challenge your understanding of church history and inspire you to imagine new possibilities for what the church could be.=====Want to support us?The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal. Other important info: Rate & review us on Apple & Spotify Follow us on social media at @PPWBPodcast Watch & comment on YouTube Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com Cheers!

Text us your questions!Matthew Vines returns to discuss how the revised edition of his book addresses critiques from prominent theologians, the distinction between affirming theology and queer theology, and the possibility of affirming, orthodox Christianity.Matthew unpacks the scholarly consensus that modern sexual orientation concepts simply didn't exist in biblical times—a fact many prominent theologians like NT Wright dismiss without substantial engagement. This historical disconnect creates profound implications for how we interpret biblical passages addressing same-sex relationships.The discussion takes an interesting turn when Matthew articulates a strong critique of queer theology, distinguishing it from his own affirming theological stance. He argues that queer theory's categorical opposition to all normative structures actually harms LGBTQ+ acceptance by creating an antagonistic "us versus them" narrative rather than one of shared values and inclusion.We also explore Christian sexual ethics more broadly, with Matthew making the compelling case that monogamy and covenant faithfulness remain valuable principles with profound theological significance. He explains how Christianity's sexual ethic was actually liberating in the ancient world, especially for women and enslaved people who had previously been treated as property without sexual agency.The conversation concludes with Matthew sharing the mission of The Reformation Project—his organization dedicated to equipping Christians to advocate for LGBTQ+ inclusion while maintaining orthodox Christian beliefs. By modeling how affirmation and biblical commitment can coexist, they're challenging the false narrative that accepting LGBTQ+ people necessarily leads to theological liberalism.Topics covered in this episode include:• How ancient and modern understandings of sexuality are fundamentally different, with sexual orientation being a modern concept• The two main schools of thought in sexuality studies that emerged in the 1970s: social constructionism (Foucault) and essentialism (Boswell)• NT Wright and Preston Sprinkle's claims about ancient sexuality• Matthew's response to criticisms of his interpretation of Matthew 7 regarding "good and bad fruit"• The role of Christian sexual ethics in liberating vulnerable populations by restricting sexual activity to marriage• How queer theology differs from affirming theology in its rejection of all norms as inherently oppressive=====Want to support us?The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal. Other important info: Rate & review us on Apple & Spotify Follow us on social media at @PPWBPodcast Watch & comment on YouTube Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com Cheers!