New Kinship

Within Christian circles on the faith and sexuality, we (especially Side B people) spend a lot of time talking about different “sides” and where we stand. Some people think we shouldn’t even talk about sides at all. While there may be merit to some of their objections, we still think it’s a valuable way of framing things. This episode explains why we keep using “Side A” and “Side B”. We might give you some new ideas, might change your mind… or it might just give you more things to argue about with us. We welcome all of those!Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, and Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation (welcome!), you can totally join us for an insider conversation…but first you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠⁠⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠⁠__________Timestamps(00:57) Why did this topic come up?(04:40) What are the strengths of using "sides" language or framework?(09:33) Critiques of using "sides" language or frameworks(25:03) Critiques we find wisdom in(27:08) Alternatives: What other language besides "sides" could we use?(35:59) Is "sides" language sufficient for our moment?__________Links and ReferencesBelow are some names mentioned in this episode, which may help make this conversation easier to follow and look up. Saint Aelred - Wikipedia We mention Rosaria Butterfield on this episode, who represents “Side Y”. Matthew Vines represents a traditional “Side A” perspective. Tyler Sit was a guest on this podcast - Episode 13 Giacomo San Filippo was a guest on this podcast - Episode 17__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Ethnicity, race, nationalism… Just bringing up those words can raise the temperature of the room. These topics intersect and affect our daily lives in ways that are so important—how do we, as Christians, engage these topics well?We share some initial thoughts on ethnicity and on why it can be important to focus on it, or de-emphasize it, in our daily lives.We welcome your input and sharpening of these ideas, as always. Thanks for listening!__________Timestamps(04:33) Defining “ethnicity”(08:28) David’s ethnic background, plus a quick definition of "Mennonite”(21:36) Finding your roots, and Disney's Moana(28:32) TJ's ethnic background(32:39) Tensions in community, family, and what roots you grow(37:57) Counter-argument: “Ethnic tribalism is a threat to peaceful universalism”(50:51) Wrapping up__________Links and References“The Radical Anti-Racism of Christopher Hitchens” https://fairforall.substack.com/p/hitchens-antiracism__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

We are so excited to welcome Mwendia Steve Kiengu to the podcast as we begin highlighting perspectives from Africa!Mwendia is a seminary student in Kenya who’s grown up with same-sex attraction. He talks with TJ about the African cultural dynamics they’ve both experienced around same-sex attraction—how people talk about it, advice they give, and the challenges that Christians with same-sex attractions face.We value Mwendia’s perspective on sexuality, both for Africans engaging in the conversation and for global listeners expanding their knowledge of the world.—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand, which is most often a western framing. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠⁠⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠⁠__________Timestamps(0:24) TJ: On highlighting African voices(04:09) Introducing Mwendia(16:02) Same-sex sexual relations (and insult words) among Kenyan young people(22:54) Are there gay Kenyan celebrities?(25:36) Most closeted Kenyans stay there (under pressure to marry, have kids)(32:21) African values on marriage + kids (high), celibacy (low)(40:41) Openness to celibate partnerships, LGBT language? in Kenya(50:02) "This is a western ideology”(58:44) Kenyan Christians who affirm same-sex sex?(1:00:00) Finding the boldness to build community(1:05:36) What LGBT language is used among Kenyan Christians?Links and ReferencesMwendia’s blog: https://thequestionofsexuality.home.blog/Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill (2010) Link to publisherSpiritual Friendship blog: https://spiritualfriendship.org/Revoice conference: https://www.revoice.org/Still Time to Care by Greg Johnson (2021) Link to publisher—Below are some resources or terms mentioned in this episode, which may help make this conversation accessible to global listeners (inclusion does not imply endorsement, of course). Binyavanga Wainaina was a famous Kenyan writer who was open about his homosexuality. Wiki Kenyan fashion designer and LGBTQ activitist Chiloba Edwin was recently murdered. Wiki The story of Leah’s and Rachel’s use of their maids as surrogate mothers/concubines to build their families is found in Genesis 29:31 through 30:22.If you like this podcast, please consider…→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

We (David and TJ) are Side B, and we care about engaging people across differences. Last year we interviewed three Side A folks from different perspectives:#12 - JP’s Story: Moving Away from Side B#13 - Ordained, Gay, and Seeking Liberation: A Chat with Rev. Tyler Sit#17 - Giacomo Sanfilippo on the Asceticism of Same-Sex LoveIn January, we got the chance to sit down together and reflect on those three interviews. We anticipate continued conversations with Side A friends, and we don’t want this to be the end of the discussion—please join us as we continue it!__Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠__________Timestamps(0:32) Context: What did we learn, and what similarities and differences do we see? (11:38) JP: on singleness in Side X(14:41) JP: on why he left Side B(21:22) JP: on celibate partnerships(24:49) Tyler Sit: on purity culture, empire, and liberation(37:17) Tyler Sit: on which cross we should bear(43:22) Giacomo Sanfilippo: on human and divine eros(47:43) Giacomo Sanfilippo: on moralism vs asceticism(1:00:19) David and TJ: final thoughts (for now)Links and References“Bill Nye Unweaves the Rainbow—and Undersells Science” by Leah Libresco Sargeant (May 2017) https://leahlibresco.com/bill-nye-unweaves-the-rainbow-and-undersells-science/“Designing Woman“ by Leah Libresco Sargeant (Sept. 2022) https://comment.org/designing-woman/__Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend one of these resources as an overview: Our Communion & Shalom episode #3 talks through the 4 main “sides.” #3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality This article from Life on Side B gives a good quick summary. https://www.lifeonsideb.com/thefoursidesIf you like this podcast, please consider…→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Contrary to (some) opinions, those of us who consider ourselves “Side B” on Christian sexuality don’t agree on everything, nor is there a shared “declaration of theology” document that we can all agree on. What ideas unite and divide the Side B community? TJ and David identify 6 areas of unity and 8 areas of difference, within the Side B community.Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠And, if it helps clarify…when we say someone “is Side B”, we’re referring to those of us who are ourselves queer or same-sex attracted (which is different than the larger group, queer or straight, who align with Side B’s general theology and posture).__________Timestamps(00:23) Why this episode is neededShared Unity in Side B:(05:00) 1. Historic Christian sexual ethic(05:39) 2. The church should uphold celibate vocation(06:06) 3. Willingness to see the goods of being queer(08:30) 4. Same-sex attraction isn’t morally culpable as a sinful action (we differ on what is “indwelling sin”)(10:19) 5. Using wisdom, not prescribed language, for identity terms(10:56) 6. Opposition to “conversion therapy”Differences within Side B (11:46):(13:37) 1. Theological, denominational traditions(15:49) 2. Backgrounds, countries, cultures, beliefs, practices(17:10) 3. How we relate to LGBT/queer subculture(s)(23:32) 4. How we theologically evaluate Side A (or Y, X) beliefs(24:30) Where we started affects our current theological stance(25:36) The value we place on certain virtues (esp. TRUTH) affects our current theological stance(27:41) How big is the gap is between Side A and B?(45:03) 5. How we relate to gender norms(47:41) 6. How Christians should influence polity, laws, esp. on gay marriage(50:06) 7. Perspectives on having celibate partnerships(51:43) 8. Diversity in communities (it’s a human problem)(52:22) In conclusion, why does this matter?__________Links and ReferencesPrevious Communion & Shalom podcast episodes we referred to:#11 - Fractures in Our Moral Foundation | Applying Haidt to Sexual Ethic Divides (July 13, 2022)BONUS: A Virtual Tour of TJ's Experience at Pride 2022 (Sept 7, 2022)Revoice Conference: https://revoice.us/One example of Rosaria Butterfield’s critique of Side B: https://podcast.choosetruthovertribe.com/episodes/rosaria-butterfield-christian-lesbian__________Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.Find us on Instagram! @communionandshalomIf you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Tate grew up in small-town, Bible-belt Texas before attending “the absolute worst of the worst” of the “too liberal or too secular" universities. We (David and TJ) talk with Tate about his story of coming out, growing in faith, and being a bridge between different communities. We appreciated Tate’s reflection on how the words we use to describe sexuality (such as gay, same-sex attracted, homosexual, etc.), can mean different things to different communities. Note: This episode includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised. __________ Timestamps 0:55 - Tate’s background7:35 - The language of being gay, coming out16:55 - Community perceptions of homosexuality in language and activity25:10 - College: taking faith seriously, being gay at a “liberal” university33:00 - Conversations on sexuality with campus ministers vs. Gen Z classmates38:45 - Speaking and consulting on Christianity and same-sex sexuality48:35 - “My understanding of sin changed when I left home”50:45 - How does/should the Christian church relate to queer people?55:15 - How do you think about your attractions, your sexuality?1:00:00 - Christian views on homosexuality: what categories did/do you use?1:05:00 - Why are you not “Side A” (affirming of same-sex marriage/sexual relationships)?1:07:10 - How can queer/same-sex attracted/LGBT people fit in the church? What are the positive gifts or strengths of being queer/same-sex attracted/LGBT? __________ Links and References in This Episode Tate’s blog: tate.fyiWashed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality (2010) by Wesley HillTwo Views on Homosexuality, the Bible, and the Church (2016)—contributors: William Loader, Megan K. DeFranza, Wesley Hill, Stephen R. Holmes; edited by Preston Sprinkle“Being gay is like a drop of ink in a glass of water”—referenced in a Spiritual Friendship blog post by Wesley Hill: https://spiritualfriendship.org/2016/03/10/will-i-be-gay-in-the-resurrection/ __________ Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or by emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.Find us on Instagram! @communionandshalomIf you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

True love means… what??There are many answers to that question, and in this episode, we’re just talking about some of them. In part 3 of our conversation with medieval literature scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner, we reflect on some of the implications of the “pure relationship”—and how combining or removing certain elements of the historic marriage relationship can have big impacts. How should we think about desire, romantic attraction, and the marriage relationship today? And how does this impact how we think about love and kinship in other forms?If you have more answers to those questions, get in touch!This episode is part 3 of 3.__________Timestamps4:15 - Marriage as an image of God’s love: is it more agape or eros?17:10 - What elements makes it marriage? economic factors, children, romantic attraction, sex?22:25 - Jesus on divorce, adultery: What’s the underlying logic?25:35 - Where do we go from here? Directing desire and romantic attraction43:20 - What is the constructive Christian response to the current “pure relationship” model?49:36 - Kathryn’s book recommendation: Kristin Lavransdatter__________Links and ReferencesKathryn Mogk Wagner: kathryn.mogkwagner.netAnthony Giddens on the “pure relationship”Sermons on eros by Robert Cunningham at the Good of the Bluegrass Conference 2022 (listen at the conference website; listen to a shorter summary in another podcast from Cunningham at Every Square Inch)The Symposium by Plato (wiki)The Divine Comedy and La Vita Nuova by Dante Alighieri; about Beatrice (wiki)The story of King Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot is told many places; one is Le Morte d’Arthur (wiki)Eros and Agape by Anders NygrenKristin Lavransdatter by Sigrid Undset__________Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.Find us on Instagram! @communionandshalomIf you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

But not that kind of western romance…Pop quiz: Which of the following reasons is a good reason to get married to someone? Because your family or social circle wants you to Because you sexually desire that person (or are already sexually involved) Because you want children (or have them already) Because you need financial stability Because you’re “in love” with that person Because you’re “in love” with someone elseSome of these answers might seem ridiculous, but a hundred or a thousand years ago, people concluded very different things about marriage and romance, depending on the age they live in.We in the West can bundle together a lot of expectations for romantic partners—they should be your best friend, have romantic attraction, maybe build a family together, share finances, support you emotionally, and on and on. Sometimes we separate out just one or two items—attraction, best-friendship—and focus on that alone. But it hasn’t always been this way. In the scale of human history, our current assumptions about romance and marriage are actually quite young.In part 2 of this series, we continue our conversation with friend and scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner, to look through the lens of Western literature at changing perspectives on romance, (Christian) marriage, love, and intimacy through the ages.This episode is part 2 of 3.  For anyone who has had to work through their expectations for romantic relationships (or other people’s expectations for your relationships!), this episode is for you.__________Timestamps1:45 - The biology of attraction8:05 - The ancient world: Marriage as economic arrangement10:35 - The early Christian church: equality in adultery12:15 - Courtly love and longing in the 11th century20:05 - Example: King Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere23:30 - Arranged marriages and consent in the Christian church30:05- Example: Dante and Beatrice39:30 - Contemporary Christian emphasis on marriage—does it deserve it?45:05 - Companionate marriage: Edmund Spenser’s poetry49:00 - Holiness as celibacy (Catholics) or married life (Protestants)53:45 - Song of Songs in the church’s imagination58:05 - The development of the “pure relationship”__________Links and ReferencesKathryn Mogk Wagner: kathryn.mogkwagner.netThe Allegory of Love by C.S. LewisThe Symposium by Plato (wiki)The Divine Comedy and La Vita Nuova by Dante Alighieri; about Beatrice (wiki)The story of King Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot is told many places; one is Le Morte d’Arthur (wiki)Edmund Spenser, poet (wiki)Anthony Giddens on the “pure relationship”__________Please share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.Find us on Instagram: @communionandshalomIf you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

What does it mean to love your best friend? Is it the same as the kind of love you have for your spouse or romantic partner? How about the kind of love that God gives us, or that we can give God?These are questions that people have been asking in the Christian tradition for millennia. Eros is one of the Greek words for love that people have argued about. In this episode, we talk with medieval literature scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner about how people have defined eros, from Plato, to C.S. Lewis, to a recent conference podcast from pastor Robert Cunningham.This episode is part 1 of 3.__________Timestamps3:30 - What’s important about the word “eros”?4:15 - Eros in C.S. Lewis’s The Four Loves6:55 - Summarizing Robert Cunningham’s 3 sermons on Eros16:00 - Eros in Plato’s Symposium20:00 - Does eros only refer to sexual love?__________Links and ReferencesKathryn Mogk Wagner's website: kathryn.mogkwagner.netThe Four Loves by C.S. Lewis (listen to original audio on the Internet Archive; read a brief summary of the book)Sermons on eros by Robert Cunningham at the Good of the Bluegrass Conference 2022 (listen at the conference website; listen to a shorter summary in another podcast from Cunningham at Every Square Inch)The Symposium by Plato (wiki)Eros and Agape by Anders Nygren__________Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalomInstagram: @communionandshalom Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Note: This podcast includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.Giacomo was a great conversation partner for building understanding across differences and investigating a theology of same-sex love. We encourage listeners to listen closely to try to understand one Side A perspective more carefully, and to think about how people from a Side B perspective might engage with those whom they have distinct disagreements but also surprising similarities.Giacomo Sanfilippo is an Orthodox Christian and the founding editor of the blog Orthodoxy in Dialogue, where he has become the Orthodox Church’s most well known LGBTQ advocate. Largely influenced by his work on Father Pavel Florensky, Giacomo’s perspective is grounded in an ascetic view of sexuality and same-sex love, whereby Christians are made more like God through acts of self-sacrifice and discipline.  Based on his work at Orthodoxy in Dialogue, we wanted to hear more about how he comes to his theology of sexuality, particularly as embedded in the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition.Check out our response to Giacomo and other Side A guests in episode #23 - ⁠Side B Response to Side A: Our 2022 Guests ⁠__________Timestamps(1:01) Introducing Giacomo(5:21) Updated Note: Clarification of Differences(6:46) Orthodox marriage vs same-sex relationships(12:41) What has theologically informed your understanding of same-sex love?(25:25) Giacomo’s story(37:49) Becoming more public in the Christian sexuality conversation(44:22) How do you integrate your understanding of same-sex love with the Orthodox church’s teaching around marriage?(49:13) Asceticism in sexuality: a monogamous vision for same-sex (and heterosexual) couples(54:47) If there’s no sex in heaven…(58:51) Do people who are celibate miss out on a “need”?(1:19:13) The myth of being “fully satisfied” in a relationship(1:28:46) David and TJ on Side B perceptions of queerness__________Links, References, and TermsOrthodoxy in Dialogue website: orthodoxyindialogue.comArticle: “Conjugal Friendship” publicorthodoxy.org/2017/05/02/conjugal-friendship/Asceticism (you can look this up many places. We’ll offer just one relevant link: https://orthodoxwiki.org/Asceticism)Antinomy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AntinomyPavel Florensky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Florensky__________Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalomFollow us on Instagram: @communionandshalom Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe