New Kinship

Anna Carter and Shannon Ochoa lead Eden Invitation, a Catholic Side B ministry for LGBTQ+ discipleship. TJ and David talked with them about their founding story, mystical theology, Pride Month, the opportunity and challenges of giant gray areas, theories of change, and so much more.We love how intensely they pursue loving God and loving their communities well. Please join us for this delightful conversation. (And yes, the retreat they mention has already happened—but there’s always next year!)About Our Guests:As culture shifts, Eden Invitation believes the Church must be there to meet it. We are striving disciples with LGBTQ+ experiences, building community with others who desire a way of life in congruence with Christ and His Church. Through in-person events and online community, Eden Invitation creates space to receive the whole person, grow systems of mutual support, and empower for creative discipleship. Anna Carter is the co-founder and President of Eden Invitation. Anna’s tenacious faith in Jesus predated her own experience of same-sex desires. Her passion for catechesis and evangelization brought her to the Franciscan University of Steubenville, NET Ministries, and the high school classroom. Now through directing the work of Eden Invitation, Anna proclaims that there is resurrected life in the midst of our longings. Anna wanted to found Eden Invitation in order to ensure there was a just pastoral response and to give light to what a “yes” to the Church’s teachings can look like. Shannon Ochoa is the co-founder and Vice-President of Eden Invitation. Shannon graduated from the University of Wisconsin-Madison with degrees in Social Welfare and Gender & Women's Studies. She has fallen for men and for women, but ultimately she fell for the beauty of Christ and His Church. Prior to founding Eden Invitation, Shannon worked in college campus ministry with The Evangelical Catholic and Brew City Catholic. She felt compelled to co-found Eden Invitation because she wanted disciples to know they were good, to not be afraid of themselves, and to find dynamic, faithful community. If you're looking for her, try the shore of the nearest body of water. She’ll be in a hammock.__________Timestamps(2:20) Introducing Anna and Shannon(3:40) The beginnings of Eden Invitation(7:32) EI distinctives: Stepping into the longing together in community(15:54) Connections for non-queer people?(20:18) Catholic tradition on disordered desires, celibacy traditions, gift of self(33:44) Relating to Courage and Desert Streams(35:41) "People just assumed we were only a women's ministry”(39:06) The language question: "We try to let the air out of it"(44:38) Healing or change of sexual orientation: How do you respond?(54:41) Engaging gender discordance(1:00:13) On Pride: "We're trying to protect people from the shrapnel”(1:03:15) Developing the future, “gigantic gray areas”(1:06:02) Hope and barriers in the Catholic conversation(1:13:03) How to connect with Eden Invitation__________Links and References Eden Invitation website: www.edeninvitation.com EI Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/edeninvitation/ EI Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/edeninvitation__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Marco Casanova is a Catholic leader of a ministry called Living Waters, helping people pursue healing, often around sexuality. TJ and David had a very engaging talk with Marco about his take on homosexuality/same-sex attraction, marriage and singleness, Pope John Paul II, and the work of healing and transformation. Within the Christian sexuality conversation, Marco’s approach might be called “Side X”, although he differs from the approach of older “ex-gay” ministries. Join us in listening and learning from our guest as we seek to understand his story and perspective.About Our Guest:Marco Casanova is Associate Director of Desert Stream Ministries. He encountered Living Waters as a seminarian seeking answers in his broken sexuality. After eight years, Marco left priestly formation and joined the Desert Stream team. His primary task is to oversee Living Waters USA and to equip lay faithful to run effective healing groups in their church communities. He married his wife Ania in December 2022. The Casanovas are parishioners of St. Peter's Parish, Brookside, MO.__________Timestamps(01:30) Marco's story of same sex attraction, sexual addiction(14:25) What is "integration," at Living Waters?(20:49) Dating with zero chemistry--advice?(23:25) What does "spousal" design mean for chosen celibacy?(28:35) Can everyone achieve “integration”?(34:10) Does same-sex attraction have any gifts/goods?(37:59) Brothers, sisters, spouses, and the "safety" of gay guys…(45:13) If there's not marriage/sex in heaven...?(49:07) On Exodus International, ex-gay ministries, and conversion therapy(59:26) Differences between Side B and your perspective?(1:08:25) What is authentic theological anthropology? (Can SSA be a part of moving forward?)(1:25:11) Do you know Eden Invitation?__________Links and References We MentionedMarco’s ministry, Desert Streams: desertstream.orgTheology of the Body, Pope John Paul II - Wikipedia, new book translation (2006)Elizabeth Moberly - WikipediaJoseph Nicolosi - WikipediaIf you like this podcast, please consider…__________→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Misty Irons has been part of the faith and sexuality conversation for over 20 years. We were honored to talk to her about her journey with Side B, being an ally to queer people, and what an “accommodationist” view of Side A could look like. We’re grateful for her perspective and her intense care and thoughtfulness on topics of faith and sexuality.About Our Guest:Misty Irons is a friend of LGBTQ Christians and has served this community as a conference speaker, seminar leader, and podcast guest, representing a straight-ally perspective. For 16 years she maintained a blog on faith and sexuality. She is a graduate of Westminster Seminary California (M.A., Biblical Studies) and a member of the Presbyterian Church in America. She currently resides in Los Angeles, California.—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”:#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality__________Timestamps(00:57) Introducing Misty Irons(04:17) Entering the conversation on faith and sexuality(14:06) Getting involved in QCF(27:28) Inside experience vs. outside "promises” of ex-gay ministries (”Side X”)(35:55) Sexuality theology in Presbyterian and Reformed circles: sin, misery, and ____?(45:10) What has it meant to be an ally to queer people?(54:40) Comparing terms: "Gentile Christian" and "queer Christian”__________Links and ReferencesMisty’s blog with links to recent talks: moremusingson.blogspot.com__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Kristyn Komarnicki started Oriented to Love 13 years ago, almost accidentally, in an effort to include the voices of gay people who weren’t present in Christian spaces that she was involved in. Since then, this program, under the aegis of the Christians for Social Action, has become deeper, broader, and more intentional about engaging Christians who have different stances on LGBT topics and bringing them into dialogue with each other.We talked with Kristyn about how she facilitates dialogues between people with very different convictions. We appreciate her work: in helping us ask better questions. In practicing care. In becoming oriented toward love.We hope you’ll join us!About Our Guest:Kristyn Komarnicki is director of dialogue and convening at Christians for Social Action (CSA). The creator of CSA’s Oriented to Love dialogues about sexual/gender diversity in the church, Kristyn gathers Christians of different sexual orientations, gender identities, and theological convictions together so they can begin to know, understand, and love each other, in search of a unity that is deeper than agreement. Fascinated and encouraged by what happens when we approach our “other” in the posture of a learner—with vulnerability, bravery, curiosity and humility—Kristyn enjoys helping people have more generative conversations, reframing conflict not as something to be feared or avoided but as an opportunity for maturing in Christ. A xenophile who loves to travel and swap stories with people from around the world, Kristyn has studied and worked on three continents, having made a home in Paris, Toronto, and Hong Kong. Today she lives in Philadelphia with her husband of over 30 years.—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠__________Timestamps(00:23) A transformative journey of privilege(08:16) What if everyone takes the posture of a learner?(16:56) How do you/OTL navigate tensions in this (LGBT) conversation?(20:34) Postures of the heart that help this conversation(29:17) Dialoguing with truth, love, and the slippery slope(39:52) Being a straight ally(44:15) Resources for getting involved in OTL(45:25) How has OTL affected participants' lives?(48:13) Resources for better question-asking__________Links and References Ask Powerful Questions: Create Conversations That Matter by Will Wise and Chad Littlefield I Never Thought of It That Way: How to Have Fearlessly Curious Conversations in Dangerously Divided Times by Monica Guzman High Conflict: Why We Get Trapped and How to Get Out of It by Amanda Ripley The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey Oriented to Love program: christiansforsocialaction.org/programs/oriented-to-love/ Tip Sheet: “Crafting Dialogue-Nurturing Questions” from OTL Workshop: “Transforming Conflict through Curiosity”__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→ Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

In the spring, TJ attended a small dialogue, Oriented to Love (OTL), sponsored by the Christians for Social Action. OTL hosts thoughtful conversations across difference, specifically among Christians, both queer and straight, who take on different beliefs and positions on questions of gender, sexuality, and how those topics interact with their faith. It’s a rare opportunity when someone can hold space for people to meet, care well, listen carefully, and share their stories honestly. Oriented to Love aims not to change anyone’s mind, but to facilitate listening and thoughtful dialogue among participants.In this episode, TJ talked David through his experience in this group conversation and the many additional questions that emerged from the experience.—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: #3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay SexualityAlso note that “Side C” is sometimes used to refer to a perspective that doesn’t choose a “side” or tries to make space for all “sides” to exist in unity.__________Timestamps(00:27) What Is "Oriented to Love"?(09:53) Stepping into the first room of the conversation(14:41) The second room: Not just listening, but sharing convictions(21:31) Discomfort is inevitable(27:49) "We don't think you're a worse Christian”(37:56) Heresy, inheriting the kingdom, sin, salvation…(44:34) 3 questions that distinguish "wings" of Side B(51:14) Faith and works, degree of severity, fear and trembling(1:03:49) We recommend OTL__________Links and References“Oriented to Love”: https://christiansforsocialaction.org/programs/oriented-to-love/__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Hey there! We recorded an episode at Revoice 2023—a conference supporting Christians who are sexual minorities seeking to live out their faith according to a traditional, biblical sexual ethic. We loved doing this live episode recording with the Revoice community, and we are delighted to welcome Greg Coles and Erin Phelps to the podcast stage: Gregory Coles is the author of Single, Gay, Christian (InterVarsity Press, 2017) and No Longer Strangers (InterVarsity Press, 2021). He holds a PhD in English from Penn State and lives in Idaho's Treasure Valley, where he works as a writer and speaker. Greg is a Senior Research Fellow at The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender and curates most of his creative activities at gregorycoles.com. Erin Phelps is a Lumbee and Waccamaw Siouan woman living in Charlotte, North Carolina. Her interests include, anti-racism, sustainable fashion, and boy bands. Currently she is working to building a community for Side B women called Your Other Sisters alongside Your Other Brothers.We talked with Erin and Greg about the social construction of sexual orientation language—what it means to use human-created categories like “gay” or “queer” in a way that affects our daily realities. We talk about whether the words we choose to describe ourselves matter, how you might come out to someone in different languages, the need to use language to push back against oppression, and much more.So, please bear with the echoes and sound quality of a live Q&A—this was an exciting episode to create with the Revoice community, and now we’re excited to share it with you!—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find our Communion & Shalom episode #3 helpful, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality—And, in case you’re listening to this with children around…This episode briefly includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.__________Timestamps(3:43) Introducing Greg Coles and Erin Phelps!(6:43) Dr. Gregory Coles explains "social construction”(10:31) An abridged history of sexual orientation(18:32) Are you "on board" with sexual orientation?(29:20) Advice for the church: the telos for my life, and labels in Florida(33:35) Q: What about “reclaiming queer" as a response to over-sexualization?(40:52) Labels as self-determination ("People want to be called something nice")(44:00) Q: Using your indigenous culture's labels for sexuality(52:09) Q: How do you share sexual orientation in another language?(57:38) Q: Talking to the next generation about sexuality__________Resources and ReferencesIn early usage, “heterosexuality” and “homosexuality” were used to refer to the “abnormal” minority: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170315-the-invention-of-heterosexualityRevoice: https://www.revoice.org/Some resources we mentioned—check out:Pieter Valk’s organization, EQUIP: https://equipyourcommunity.org/Kaleidoscope Ministries: https://www.kaleidoscopeusa.org/Posture Shift: https://postureshift.com/Eden Invitation: https://www.edeninvitation.com/__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

If God calls us to seek the common good of our communities—what does that mean in real life? The commons, a shared community place or resource, is a critical idea in this conversation. Even better: it’s not just an idea; it’s been practiced around the globe in many times and places. David Frank talks with friend and fellow housemate Brendan Johnson about the ways we could start thinking differently—really differently—about our public, private, and shared resources.Our goal is to inspire you to imagine new ways of flourishing and to open the conversation further. Shoot us a message with any comments, questions, or critiques. There’s so much around this topic left to discuss!__________Timestamps(1:21) What is “the commons”?(5:47) Commons vs., say, a public park(14:24) Seeking the common good in common life(18:59) Rights to common air, water vs. privatization(24:50) Who are “the commoners”?(30:22) Example of 3M and the (failure of) water commons(35:53) The tragedy of the commons(39:17) “Beating the bounds”(42:47) Healthcare and the mental commons(45:23) Joy and the desire to contribute(50:15) What it means to be human(53:06) The commons of communion(57:23) What we can do now__________Links and ReferencesOur Guest Today is D. Brendan Johnson: https://linktr.ee/dbrendanjohnson"A Short History of Enclosure in Britain" by Simon Fairlie (The Land, 2009; link to publisher)Small is Beautiful by E.F. Schumacher (1973, link to publisher)Christ and the Common Life by Luke Bretherton (2019, link to publisher)“The Tragedy of the Commons” by Garrett Hardin (Science, 1968; link to JStor)Governing the Commons by Elinor Ostrom (1990, link to publisher)Podcast: "Frontiers of Commoning with David Bollier" https://david-bollier.simplecast.com/Free, Fair, and Alive by David Bollier and Silke Helfrich https://freefairandalive.org/Cooperation Jackson in Mississippi https://cooperationjackson.org/Mondragon Corporation in Spain https://www.mondragon-corporation.com/en/__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

We (TJ and David) first connected with philosopher Joel Carini from a few of his articles on a reformed theology of same-sex attraction. In this episode, Joel joined us for a conversation around various Christian contexts, nature and grace, Side B and identity language, and, of course, philosophy. We appreciate Joel’s care and thoughtfulness around his work, and we hope (whether you agree with him or not) you’ll find his approach worth engaging!—Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find our Communion & Shalom episode #3 helpful, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠__________Timestamps(0:59) Joel's background(05:12) Sidenote: new urbanist community(08:06) Moving toward reformed theology(10:56) Studying philosophy as a follower of Jesus(31:15) What is orthodoxy, and what isn't?(41:01) What is a "natural theologian"?(48:09) How theology/philosophy helps me love God and others(54:26) Why conservative Christians emphasize identity language?(1:00:28) Becoming sympathetic to side B(1:11:18) People's responses in your church circles(1:26:36) Sharing side B with conservative Christians(1:35:38) Advice for intellectuals in the side B conversation__________Links and ReferencesJoel Carini’s Substack: https://joelcarini.substack.com/“Same Sex Attraction and the Misery of Our Condition” https://joelcarini.substack.com/p/same-sex-attraction-and-the-misery—Confused about something they referenced in this podcast? So was Podcast Manager Elena. We can’t link to every one of them…so instead here’s the references we caught, spelled correctly, for your easier Google searching:John Piper (Bethlehem Baptist), Greg Beale, Karl Barth, Van Till (Westminster presuppositionalism), Carl Trueman, Wayne Grudem and complementarianism and egalitarianism, Bruce Ware, heterodox, Miguel de Unamuno (existentialist novelist), Greg Johnson in Christianity Today magazine, Retreat to Commitment by W. W. Bartley III, subordinationism, Bethel McGrew, Wesley Hill’s book Spiritual Friendship__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Ariel is a friend of this podcast and—more importantly—a friend to many humans, both queer and straight. We have seen her intuitive care and fierce kindness shine in her support of queer friends and family. We asked her to share some wisdom with us all!__________Timestamps(02:23) Growing up in evangelical Christianity with queer friends(11:46) The goodness of diversity in communities(14:59) Why not use the word "ally"? Or "advocate"?(21:20) The church has struggled to keep up with culture...and could it ever be "ahead"?(30:32) What does it mean to be a friend (to...anyone)?(38:55) Advice for Christians struggling with friendships with queer people(42:34) Raising kids around differences that aren't scary__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom__________CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Paul-Anthony Turner is a gay Christian philosopher and pastor who used to be Side B (holding a traditional Christian sexual ethic of chastity in opposite-sex marriage or a celibate vocation) and is now Side A (affirming same-sex marriage). He takes TJ through his reasoning and philosophy for how he arrives at a Side A position. Preview: He likes Kant a LOT.One of our main goals with Communion & Shalom is to bring people who believe differently than we do, and differently than each other, into conversation on difficult topics like Christian sexuality. Wherever you find yourself on these topics, we hope you’ll find this conversation gives you insight into other perspectives.Also, this episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠__________Timestamps(06:40) Paul Anthony introduces himself(09:02) "I always knew I was gay...”(12:58) When did you become "Side B"?(28:52) What was your process of transitioning from Side B to Side A(35:03) Epistemology, ontology, phenomenology... and other philosophical frameworks(46:47) What is the place of spiritual revelation in your philosophical model?(55:07) "Doesn't the text have some power to resist the interpretations we bring to it?”(59:34) But why are you Side A?(1:04:49) A wager like Pascal's(1:10:27) How does the idea of sin interact with the account you're giving for sexuality?(1:17:56) "I think in some ways that absolute knowledge is like the boogeyman in your account...”(1:18:27) What role does tradition play in your account of same-sex sex within Christianity?(1:32:34) How do you relate to Side B people now that you're Side A?(1:39:18) Interpreting the text and the world we are in: "To what extent do you think we [Side B] are wrong?”__________Other NotesFor those of us who aren’t students of either theology or philosophy, a quick-and-dirty reference list….hermeneutics—different methods of interpretationontology—“what makes a thing what it is?”epistemology—”how can we know what we know?”teleology—”What is a thing’s goal or purpose?”phenomenology—“How does my experience affect my engagement with the world?”Some named-dropped philosophers and theologians, for your spelling convenience: Maurice Merleau-Ponty, Alfred Whitehead, Hans-Georg Gadamer, Martin Heidegger, Jean-Paul Sartre, Immanuel Kant, Friedrich Nietzsche, George Lindbeckmonsignor - WikipediaBooks by James K. A. Smith—Desiring the Kingdom, Who’s Afraid of Postmodernism?, and Who’s Afraid of Relativism?Paul Anthony’s friends Ed Oxford and Kathy Baldock are writing a book called Forging A Sacred Weapon__________If you like this podcast, please consider…→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom—CreditsCreators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ EspinozaAudio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)Podcast Manager: Elena Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe