New Kinship

Michelle and Will are two friends who identify as asexual and queer, and we (David and TJ) wanted to hear their take on what’s good about being queer. Before that, we spent a little more time reflecting on those topics ourselves.__________Timestamps01:00 - In which David and TJ summarize a few initial goods from their own queer experience: avoiding “the establishment”, discipleship, Plato’s take on social contributions, humility, God working in the margins.10:45 - Please don’t feel bad if you’re not queer (or “queer enough”)12:20 - Now, back to our regularly scheduled interview with Will and Michelle…13:20 - Queerness can develop self-discernment, humility, self-sacrifice in suffering24:50 - Queer people often see the brokenness of the world, need for corporate confession27:40 - Queer people can sometimes have a “genius” for friendship, be a “safe friend”, and change the script on intimacy and masculinity34:15 - Queerness: everyone’s a special snowflake, yes, but there’s something deeply Christian about that39:45 - Queerness disrupts our emphasis on marriage and romance57:40 - The scandal of a mixed gender household58:45 - In conclusion: It’s about seeing Christ, and ourselves through his eyes__________Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalomInstagram: @communionandshalom Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

Join us as we (David, TJ, and our friends Will and Michelle—who are asexual/queer) explore ideas of what “queerness” means. While we can’t come to one single definition, we hit on a kaleidoscope of topics as we explore the weirdness inherent in the word “queer,” the queering influence of Christianity, queerness and the arts, and ontological questions about queer sexual orientation.—A Few Quick Definitions for Your Optional Referenceasexuality: a lack of sexual attraction or desire for sexual activity (see Wikipedia)ontology: the philosophical study of the nature of being, what it means to be; the nature of inherent personhood.autognosis: self-knowledge; the understanding of one’s own psychodynamics, character, nature, abilities, etc.theosis: the process of humans becoming more like God (this theological concept is prominent in particular in Eastern Orthodox Christian theology)__________TimestampsConversation with Michelle and Will:1:30 - Introductions3:50 - Queer as a neutral word for “weird”9:25 - Early and medieval Christianity—Origen, consecrated virgins, Franciscans, and Anchorites16:00 - Queer theory—destruction of cultural norms, avoiding oppression18:10 - Queerness, the arts, and avoiding “the game”(TJ’s definition of “queer” at 20:15: “a special affinity for people of the same sex”)23:50 - Self knowledge (“autognosis”): becoming more ourselves, more like Christ29:00 - Self creation: identity narcissism in our current culture30:50 - Michelle on art that knows oneself, community, and God33:10 - TJ on difficulties with ontology and gender normsFurther Thoughts from David and TJ:38:35 - Ontology: queerness as inherent vs. queerness as essence (i.e., an established trait vs a core, created good)42:10 - Defining queer: “same-sex affinity” vs. “challenging dominant cultural norms”49:15 - On the social construction of (queer) identity categories55:15 - Why “queer” should not be synonymous with “broken”__________Links and References“S04E10 | Collin, Michelle, & Will on Being Ace (w/ Grant)” (Life on Side B podcast)Article: “Is Theatre Really Queer?”Book: On the Incarnation by Athanasius (read online)__________Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

TJ talks with Lucas, a friend from the Midwest (US) who experiences same-sex attraction and generally identifies with Side B but finds understanding among several “sides” of the Christian debate. We see Lucas’s story offering an example of someone processing through faith, attraction, ethnicity, political frameworks, and arriving at a position of thoughtfulness and nuance.—Note: We use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, here’s a quick explanation. We also recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.” "Side A" generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.Sides B, X, and Y all represent perspectives that uphold the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage. Specific perspectives differ beyond that: “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience by a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic. ”Side X” tends to emphasize the possibility of sexual orientation change, and ministers to gay people toward the aim of being "ex gay." “Side Y” tends to avoid naming any kind of identity language associated with LGBT concerns, with the goal of not taking on an identity of being "gay."Timestamps2:25 - Lucas' church background7:06 - The pros and cons of different words: Same-sex attraction, gayness, and more10:04 - Lucas' story: Naming and understanding about same-sex attraction21:09 - Lucas' story: Sharing about same-sex attraction29:02 - An alternate vision of marriage in culture ("we make marriage more difficult than it has to be")35:10 - Connecting culture and ethnicity with sexuality conversations39:25 - Why aren't you side A? (or, What is marriage for?)43:32 - Why don't you see yourself in side X or side Y?51:49 - Side B: More opportunity for friendships?54:47 - Suggestions for future research on queerness59:55 - Other intersections (intellectual traditions, multi-ethnic, etc.) with Lucas' perspective1:02:16 - The possible role of government in sexual morality1:09:03 - Looking to the future: Co-housingLinks and ReferencesBelow are some resources or terms that Lucas and TJ mention in this episode, which may help make this conversation accessible to global listeners (inclusion does not imply endorsement, of course).Spiritual Friendship Blog: spiritualfriendship.org/Washed and Waiting by Wesley HillSpiritual Friendship by Wesley HillOut of a Far Country by Christopher Yuan and Angela YuanChanged Movement: https://changedmovement.com/Freedom March: https://www.freedomtomarch.com/The theological idea of “concupiscence”: according to Wikipedia and the Roman Catholic encyclopedia.In the episode, Lucas also mentioned the Pulse Massacre (Wikipedia)—content warning for violence, murder, and terror.Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at anchor.fm/communion-shalom or emailing us at davidfrank.mn@gmail.com Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

In June 2022, TJ went to a Pride Festival for the first time, and he reflects on his experience, with alternating bemusement and critique. Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

David and TJ sit down with Rev. Tyler Sit of New City Church in the Twin Cities, Minnesota, USA. Tyler represents a “Side A” pastoral perspective as an ordained minister for the United Methodist Church in the US. In this wide-ranging conversation, David and TJ to seek to understand Tyler's perspective, his understanding of Side B, and his take on Side A hermeneutics, particularly those centered in liberation theologies. Tyler was an excellent conversation partner in this. We encourage our listeners to listen closely to understand one Side A perspective more carefully, and consider how a Side B perspective might engage similar folks.(Note: We often use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand. "Side A" generally affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships. “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction while upholding the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage.)Check out our response to Rev. Tyler Sit and other Side A guests in episode #23 - ⁠Side B Response to Side A: Our 2022 Guests ⁠__________Timestamps02:19 - Tyler’s story: “I want to see God”07:18 - Tyler’s story: Coming out, pursuing ministry11:18 - The United Methodist Church’s approach to homosexuality13:45 - Tyler’s story: Pursuing ordination, LGBT campus ministry19:42 - Tyler’s story: Encountering other Christian perspectives in seminary21:50 - Tyler on constructs for sexuality25:51 - Methodist positions and tensions over the last (many) years33:15 - A hermeneutic of loving God, neighbor, self36:00 - Q: Why is the traditional/non-affirming perspective not persuasive to you? (Liberation theology, purity culture)45:27 - Q: Why does the church need queer voices?50:24 - Liberation theology: How does “the coming age” relate to sexuality right now?52:39 - Suffering in the Christian life1:03:30 - Early Christianity persecution and family models1:07:34 - Where we diverge on humans’ design, power, and authority1:22:26 - David’s experience with Tyler’s church, plus our initial experiences with community, coming out1:30:35 - The use of tradition, authority, and “orthophilia”1:34:45 - Differing ideological frameworks: “Empire” vs. “the world”1:39:23 - Christendom, justice movements, and our relationship to the state1:42:58 - Freedom and oppression, God as a parent, and centers of identity1:48:46 - Benediction__________Links and ReferencesTyler Sit’s website: www.tylersit.com/about-tylerAn article on the United Methodist’s “Traditional Plan”.The Romans passage mentioned in our conversation is Romans 1:16-32.—Below are some links that may help make this conversation accessible to global listeners (inclusion does not imply endorsement, of course): The Boy Scouts of America (Wikipedia), Westboro Baptist Church (Wikipedia), ROTC program (Wikipedia), Hillel House (Wikipedia), Candler School of Theology, About Taizé prayer.Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at https://anchor.fm/communion-shalom or emailing us at davidfrank.mn@gmail.com Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

David and TJ get together with friend JP from the Twin Cities. We talk about JP’s movement away from “Side B” to a more agnostic and/or “Side A” position. We also get into JP’s experience with the “ex-gay” movement, people, and ministries, and we talk about issues he sees in US Christianity that make some of these conversations difficult for queer people.Check out our response to JP and other Side A guests in episode #23 - Side B Response to Side A: Our 2022 Guests __________Timestamps01:05 - Introducing JP12:42 - Cultural gender norms in Christian culture and beyond14:25 - Getting involved in ex-gay ministries, “Side B” community23:27 - “There was this push towards heterosexual marriage”32:36 - Leaving the “Side B” group38:46 - Losing room to breathe in a church context41:45 - Thoughts on celibate partnerships and why they can fail46:42 - On churches making sacrifices, disagreeing in community49:56 - Shifting perspectives through reading, friends, cognitive dissonance1:04:42 - JP’s current perspectives on “Side B”__________For Your ReferenceLuke 6:43-45 (NIV) (we mentioned it around 1hour, 2min)“No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.”Below are some links to organizations or topics mentioned in the conversation, with the caveat that linking doesn’t necessarily imply endorsement.Outpost Ministries: https://outpostministries.org/Twin Cities Justice House of Prayer: https://tcjhop.org/Just for Fun: An article about Charlie Brown, Lucy, and the Football: https://slate.com/culture/2014/10/the-history-of-lucys-pulling-the-football-away-from-charlie-brown-in-peanuts.html__________If you enjoy this episode or want to discuss further, drop us a line! Send us a voice message at anchor.fm/communion-shalom, use the contact form on our website www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact, or email us at davidfrank.mn@gmail.com Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

In this bonus episode, TJ and David review the 6 universal moral foundations from Jonathan Haidt’s research in light of their views—and others’—on Christian queer sexuality. This is a follow-up to last week’s discussion, so you may want to listen to that episode also.If you enjoy this bonus episode, drop us a line! Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at anchor.fm/communion-shalom, using the contact form on our website www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact, or emailing us at davidfrank.mn@gmail.com__________For Reference:The 6 values/foundations from the Moral Foundations research team are as follows:Care/Harm: related to our long evolution as mammals with attachment systems and an ability to feel (and dislike) the pain of others. It underlies virtues of kindness, gentleness, and nurturing.Fairness/Cheating: related to the evolutionary process of reciprocal altruism. It generates ideas of justice, rights, and autonomy.Loyalty/Betrayal: related to our long history as tribal persons that form shifting coalitions. It underlies virtues of patriotism and self-sacrifice for the group (e.g. “one for all, and all for one”).Authority/Subversion: shaped by our long primate history of hierarchical social interactions. It underlies virtues of leadership and followership, including deference to legitimate authority and respect for traditions.Sanctity/Degradation: shaped by the psychology of disgust and contamination. It underlies religious notions of striving to live in an elevated, less carnal, more noble way. It underlies the widespread idea that the body is a temple which can be desecrated by immoral activities and contaminants (an idea not unique to religious traditions).Liberty/Oppression (a potential additional foundation): reactance and resentment people feel toward those who dominate them and restrict their liberty. The hatred of bullies and dominators motivates people to come together to oppose the oppressor.__________Other Resources:Jonathan Haidt: jonathanhaidt.comMoral Foundation Theory: moralfoundations.org + Quiz yourmorals.orgThe Righteous Mind Book and Resources: righteousmind.comSex, Economy, Freedom, and Community by Wendell Berry: counterpointpress.com/dd-product/sex-economy-freedom-community/ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

TJ and David dig into Dr. Jonathan Haidt’s social, cultural, and psychological research on the universal moral foundations, based on Haidt’s book The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, i.e. we explore how these foundations inform our “intuitive ethics,” which give key insights to how we approach sexual ethics. We also talk through how this theory relates to different perspectives (”Sides” A, B, Y, and X) in the conversation around sexual ethics. We hope that this conversation builds up wisdom for all of us to engage better in being morally reflective, virtuous persons embedded in our larger communities, structures, and lands.We apologize for some audio quality issues.Trigger warning: When we are reading the first paragraphs of Jonathan Haidt’s A Righteous Mind, we mention a sex act in the first few minutes of the podcast which may make listeners uncomfortable._____________0:00 - The Righteous Mind's intro to universal moral foundations4:47 - Quick refresher: “Side A”, “Side Y”, “Side X”, and “Side B”9:30 - Intro to the 6 moral foundations12:40 - Elephant and the rider (who’s steering?)20:30 - Side A foundations for moral thinking40:13 - The church handling polygamy in an African context44:25 - The Bible’s emphasis on different moral foundations49:32 - Wrapping up_____________For reference, the 6 values/foundations from the Moral Foundations research team:Care/Harm: related to our long evolution as mammals with attachment systems and an ability to feel (and dislike) the pain of others. It underlies virtues of kindness, gentleness, and nurturing.Fairness/Cheating: related to the evolutionary process of reciprocal altruism. It generates ideas of justice, rights, and autonomy.Loyalty/Betrayal: related to our long history as tribal persons that form shifting coalitions. It underlies virtues of patriotism and self-sacrifice for the group (e.g. “one for all, and all for one”).Authority/Subversion: shaped by our long primate history of hierarchical social interactions. It underlies virtues of leadership and followership, including deference to legitimate authority and respect for traditions.Sanctity/Degradation: shaped by the psychology of disgust and contamination. It underlies religious notions of striving to live in an elevated, less carnal, more noble way. It underlies the widespread idea that the body is a temple which can be desecrated by immoral activities and contaminants (an idea not unique to religious traditions).Liberty/Oppression (a potential foundation): reactance and resentment people feel toward those who dominate them and restrict their liberty. The hatred of bullies and dominators motivates people to come together to oppose the oppressor._____________Jonathan Haidt: jonathanhaidt.comMoral Foundation Theory: moralfoundations.org + Quiz yourmorals.orgThe Righteous Mind Book and Resources: righteousmind.comRussell Moore Interview with Haidt: https://www.russellmoore.com/2018/09/21/russell-moore-jonathan-haidt-a-conversation/Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at anchor.fm/communion-shalom or emailing us at davidfrank.mn@gmail.com Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

After verbally processing on our last podcast, we read and listened to various perspectives that differ from ours and are coming back to discuss it again. This can be considered a summary of sorts of the last podcast, with some finer-tuned thoughts.See David's reflection that he shared with his church - The False Dichotomy of Pride Month____________________________Referenced Articles:Rod Dreher - https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/the-shame-of-pride-month/Carl Trueman - https://wng.org/opinions/welcome-to-pride-month-christian-1654083759 Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

What to do about the Pride Month? Reject? Celebrate? A little of both?TJ and David take a stab at complexifying this simple question.(rough cut audio while sitting on the porch) Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe