
This Week In Digital Trust
Regular conversations about tech policy, privacy, cyber security, AI safety and everything in between.
This Week In Digital Trust is hosted by Arjun Ramachandran and Jordan Wilson-Otto, self-described technology enthusiasts with a passion for ensuring the use of technology leads to the best outcomes for humanity.
Arjun and Jordan are Principals at elevenM, a specialist AI, privacy, cyber security and data governance consultancy in Australia. Arjun is a strategic communications expert and former journalist. Jordan is an expert in privacy regulation, policy development and program management.
Latest episodes

Oct 30, 2023 • 37min
#85 Taking identity digital
This week Jordan sits down with Brett Watson, elevenM's resident expert on Digital ID to figure out how far we are from proving who's a dog on the internet.
The Optus data breach led to a renewed commitment to modernising the way that we prove our identity online. Today there is a huge amount of activity in this complex space. In just the last few weeks, the Australian government released draft legislation to establish a national digital identity framework, and the several major banks and a major payment service provider announced that they are forging ahead with their own, private solution.
But what actually is a digital ID and how do all these frameworks and solutions fit together?
Links:
All about the DVS and other government identity matching services: https://www.idmatch.gov.au/
The Commonwealth Government’s Digital ID website: https://www.digitalidentity.gov.au/
The Trusted Digital Identity Framework: https://www.digitalidentity.gov.au/tdif
About the Trusted Digital identity Framework ID proofing levels (which we mentioned but didn't come back to in the show): https://www.digitalidentity.gov.au/about/what-are-id-proofing-levels
Draft legislation: Digital Identity Bill 2023 (https://www.digitalidentity.gov.au/have-your-say/2023-digital-id-bill-and-rules-submissions);
Draft legislation: Identity Verification Services Bill 2023 (https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislation/Bills_Search_Results/Result?bId=r7085).
Connect ID: https://connectid.com.au/
Article describing the launch of Connect ID: https://www.themandarin.com.au/232499-commonwealth-bank-leapfrogs-delayed-government-digital-identity-launch-with-connectid/
NAB Digital Next podcast - episode with David Birch on Digital ID: https://news.nab.com.au/news/nab-digital-next-identity-fraud-and-the-rise-of-the-bots-with-david-birch/
Stephen Wilson of Lockstep on Digital ID: https://lockstep.com.au/rip-trusted-digital-identity-but-whither-australias-tdif/

Oct 23, 2023 • 32min
#84 Shame! The fragile power of social license
This week we deconstruct the idea of social license in tech, starting with the story of a technology that Google and Facebook didn't dare release, but which is now available to everyone.
Originally coined in the context of mining and extractive industries, 'social license' refers to community acceptance of a company's business practices. For some companies, maintaining social license can be an effective check on behaviour, but for tech startups like ClearviewAI and PimEyes, well, not so much.
Links:
Kashmir
Hill on how the tech giants held back on facial recognition (NYT) https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/09/technology/google-facebook-facial-recognition.html
Social license explainer (The Ethics Centre) https://ethics.org.au/ethics-explainer-social-license-to-operate/
OAIC submission on social license in AI (OAIC) https://www.oaic.gov.au/engage-with-us/submissions/developing-standards-for-artificial-intelligence-hearing-australias-voice-submission-to-standards-australia

Oct 16, 2023 • 27min
#83 X marks the spot for the privacy skills shortage
This week we discuss revelations from a US Department of Justice investigation into X (formerly Twitter), which raises questions over how it can comply with existing privacy orders given large workforce departures since Elon Musk's takeover.
The situation provides insight into the reliance of all organisations on well-resourced and skilled privacy teams in order to meet privacy compliance challenges - and the growing difficulty finding skilled people to make up these teams.
Links:
Article on DOJ investigation (Mashable) https://mashable.com/article/doj-twitter-x-elon-musk-ftc-order-investigation
Article on DOJ investigation (Axios) https://www.axios.com/2023/09/13/elon-musk-privacy-consent-order-ftc
Article on DOJ investigation (Guardian) https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/sep/13/twitter-elon-musk-takeover-ftc-order-data-security-privacy-doj-case
Article about privacy and security teams in chaos at Twitter (The Verge) https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/10/23451198/twitter-ftc-elon-musk-lawyer-changes-fine-warning
Article about Facebook struggling to know how it uses user data (Vice) https://www.vice.com/en/article/akvmke/facebook-doesnt-know-what-it-does-with-your-data-or-where-it-goes
IAPP privacy workforce report https://iapp.org/media/pdf/resource_center/IAPP_EY_Annual_Privacy_Governance_Report_2022.pdf
Credits:
Editing and post-production by Martin Franklin (East Coast Studio) eastcoaststudio.com.au
Music by Bensound.com

Oct 9, 2023 • 29min
#82 The modern car is a lemon (for privacy)
This week we discuss the privacy and security risks of the automobile.
Modern cars are basically operating systems on wheels, and have many of the same data challenges as other digital platforms.
Sadly, a recent study from Mozilla suggests cars are the worst product category when it comes to privacy.
Links:
Mozilla report on cars https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/
POLITICO report on car data collection https://www.politico.com/newsletters/digital-future-daily/2022/08/02/car-knows-about-you-data-collection-privacy-00049309
The Markup study on car data collection https://themarkup.org/the-breakdown/2022/07/27/who-is-collecting-data-from-your-car
Australian parliamentary inquiry on driverless cars (The Guardian) https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/22/driverless-cars-safer-perhaps-but-professor-warns-of-privacy-risks
elevenM blog on privacy and security risks of cars https://elevenm.com.au/blog/navigating-the-road-ahead-privacy-and-security-risks-of-self-driving-cars/
Credits:Editing and post-production by Martin Franklin (East Coast Studio) eastcoaststudio.com.auMusic by Bensound.com

Oct 3, 2023 • 39min
#81 At last! The Government responds on privacy reform
This week we discuss and react to the Federal Government's response to the Privacy Act review report.
The Government's long-awaited response comes after several years of discussion and debate about the way forward for Australia's privacy regime.
We break down which proposals the Government is moving forward with, which ones it won't, and which ones are slated for further discussion.
Links:
Government response to the Privacy Act Review Report https://www.ag.gov.au/rights-and-protections/publications/government-response-privacy-act-review-report
Article about reform response (InnovationAus) https://www.innovationaus.com/cautious-welcome-for-govts-planned-privacy-law-upgrade/
Article about reform response (Guardian) https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/sep/28/labor-albanese-government-privacy-crackdown-political-parties
Credits:
Editing and post-production by Martin Franklin (East Coast Studio) eastcoaststudio.com.au
Music by Bensound.com

Sep 25, 2023 • 32min
#80 An interview with Peter Warren Singer
This week we feature an interview with Peter Warren Singer, a US strategist and scholar on warfare and digital threats.
Our conversation starts with lessons from the conflict in Ukraine on how threats and adversarial tactics are evolving.
We also explore the continued use of social media as a weapon, and the nature of evolving threats to critical infrastructure and the motivations of state actors in our region such as China.
We also explore the idea of using fiction and narrative help organisations and leaders better understand the threat environment and communicate their stories.
Links:
Peter Warren Singer https://www.pwsinger.com/
LikeWar https://www.likewarbook.com/
Useful Fiction https://useful-fiction.com/
Credits:Editing and post-production by Martin Franklin (East Coast Studio) eastcoaststudio.com.auMusic by Bensound.com

Sep 19, 2023 • 35min
#79 The long and winding road to age verification
This week we revisit the hard problem of age verification, which we last discussed in episode #64.
In order to protect kids from explicit content and other harmful effects of online platforms, we first need to be able to identify them. But can we do that without major risks to privacy and free speech?
The eSafety Commissioner's Roadmap to Age Verification has the answer. Kind of.
We'll dig through the findings and recommendations in the recently published roadmap report, including the state of current age assurance technology, the legislative and regulatory framework required to make age verification work safely, and the need for a more holistic approach to protect kids.
Links:
eSafety Commissioner's Roadmap and Background Report https://www.esafety.gov.au/about-us/consultation-cooperation/age-verification
Disappointment from children's advocates (SMH) https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/kicked-down-the-road-australians-to-wait-for-porn-passport-20230830-p5e0nk.html
Digital rights advocacy group celebrating the decision not to mandate age verification (Digital Rights Watch) https://digitalrightswatch.org.au/2023/08/31/campaign-win-against-age-verification/

Sep 11, 2023 • 29min
#78 Scraping for privacy
This week we explore the privacy risks in otherwise publicly visible information, after a dozen privacy regulators from around the world issued a joint statement on the issue of data scraping.
The regulators' statement emphasises that even personal information that is publicly accessible is subject to data protection and privacy laws, and calls out social media platforms to do more to prevent the practice.
We explore the factors behind the uptick in data scraping, and who should be most responsible for stopping it.
*** Correction ***
In the episode Jordan says 'contextual integrity' is an idea of academic Julie E Cohen's - it's not, it comes from Helen Nissenbaum, a professor in information Science at Cornell Tech. If you're interested, see Helen's book 'Privacy in Context' https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=8862. Julie does have a great article on this topic (the relationship between privacy and visibility in the networked information age), which you can read here: https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/facpub/805/
Links:
Statement on data scraping https://www.oaic.gov.au/newsroom/global-expectations-of-social-media-platforms-and-other-sites-to-safeguard-against-unlawful-data-scraping
Article on data scraping statements (TechCrunch) https://techcrunch.com/2023/08/24/data-scraping-privacy-risks-joint-statement/
Determination against Clearview AI (OAIC) https://www.oaic.gov.au/newsroom/clearview-ai-breached-australians-privacy
Credits:Editing and post-production by Martin Franklin (East Coast Studio) eastcoaststudio.com.auMusic by Bensound.com

Sep 4, 2023 • 29min
#77 Stop press! Does privacy really inhibit good journalism?
This week we explore the tension between the competing values of privacy and public interest journalism.
Today, journalists enjoy a broad exemption from privacy laws. However, reform proposals have ignited debate about whether that free pass is still appropriate.
We discuss the scope and merits of these reform proposals and explore the arguments by journalists on why the exemption is necessary.
Links:
Article on journalism exemptions (Guardian) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/11/consumer-advocates-reject-media-calls-to-preserve-exemptions-to-australian-privacy-law
Media Watch on journalism exemption (YouTube) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_aaxFcd1BA
Australia’s Right to Know coalition submission https://consultations.ag.gov.au/integrity/privacy-act-review-report/consultation/view_respondent?show_all_questions=0&sort=submitted&order=ascending&_q__text=know&uuId=60975522
Privacy Act Review report https://www.ag.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-02/privacy-act-review-report_0.pdf
Credits:
Editing and post-production by Martin Franklin (East Coast Studio) eastcoaststudio.com.au
Music by Bensound.com

Aug 28, 2023 • 28min
#76 AI regulation in Australia - the ideas are in
This week we review responses to the Australian Government's open consultation on how to mitigate the potential risks of AI.
In June, the Government called for submissions to its discussion paper titled "Safe and responsible AI in Australia". While the submissions haven't been published, several have made their way into the public domain.
As well as sharing the recommendations of our own (elevenM) submission, we explore proposals from big tech giants Microsoft and Google, various members of academia, think-tanks such as the UTS Human Technology Institute, and the Australian Human Rights Commission.
Links:
Article about AI replacing Taylor Swift (SMH) https://www.smh.com.au/culture/music/what-s-next-for-john-lennon-a-duet-with-taylor-swift-20230810-p5dvf2.html
Government discussion paper: Safe and responsible AI in Australia https://consult.industry.gov.au/supporting-responsible-ai
Reporting on submission from Kingston AI Group researchers (AFR) https://www.afr.com/technology/labor-ignoring-the-elephant-in-the-room-on-ai-experts-20230804-p5du1p
Submission from the Gradient Institute https://www.gradientinstitute.org/posts/disr-safe-responsible-ai-submission/
Reporting on submission from Google (AFR) https://www.afr.com/technology/google-tells-government-how-to-regulate-ai-and-who-to-blame-when-it-goes-wrong-20230728-p5ds0s
Reporting on submission from Microsoft (AFR) https://www.afr.com/technology/microsoft-urges-soft-approach-as-husic-vows-to-regulate-high-risk-ai-20230721-p5dqaf
Reporting on submission from UTS Human Technology Institute (InnovationAus) https://www.innovationaus.com/do-we-need-new-ai-laws-sure-but-lets-try-enforce-what-we-have-first/
Submission from Australian Human Rights Commission https://humanrights.gov.au/about/news/australia-needs-ai-regulation
EU AI Act https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/20230601STO93804/eu-ai-act-first-regulation-on-artificial-intelligence
Credits:Editing and post-production by Martin Franklin (East Coast Studio) eastcoaststudio.com.auMusic by Bensound.com