
The Ongoing Transformation
The Ongoing Transformation is a biweekly podcast featuring conversations about science, technology, policy, and society. We talk with interesting thinkers—leading researchers, artists, policymakers, social theorists, and other luminaries—about the ways new knowledge transforms our world.
This podcast is presented by Issues in Science and Technology, a journal published by Arizona State University and the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. Visit issues.org and contact us at podcast@issues.org.
Latest episodes

Dec 20, 2022 • 41min
Shirley Malcom: Where Science and Society Meet
Shirley M. Malcom is a trailblazer in the area of broadening participation in science. Currently senior advisor and director of the SEA Change initiative at the American Association for the Advancement of Science, she has long worked to create institutional transformation in support of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
On this episode, we are delighted to feature her talk from the 2022 Henry and Bryna David lecture in its entirety. This lecture series is sponsored by the National Academies’ Division of Behavioral and Social Sciences and Education and Issues in Science and Technology. In her lecture, she talks about the importance of the behavioral sciences, social sciences, and education in evidence-based public policy. She brings her considerable expertise in public science literacy, issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion, and STEM education to bear on the challenges facing American society.
Resources
Read Shirley M. Malcom’s recent essay for Issues: “The Limiting Factor of ‘The Endless Frontier’ Is Still a Human One”
Visit the SEA Change website
Find more information about the David Lecture at the National Academies’ site

Dec 6, 2022 • 32min
Peaches, Pimentos, and Myths of Innovation
The challenge of transforming regional economies through technological innovation is at the heart of current discussions about science and industrial policy—not to mention the CHIPs and Science Act itself. To think about what regional transformation means, it’s worth revisiting the story of how a network of “fruit men” used the peach, and later the pimento, to change the South after the Civil War. Starting with a biotechnological invention—a shippable peach named the Elberta—this group built railroads, designed shipping methods, educated farmers, and eventually built factories that transformed the landscape and economy of the region. But this story isn’t only about tangible actions: the network used powerful storytelling and ideology to accomplish this revolution.
On this episode, host Lisa Margonelli talks with historian and journalist Cynthia Greenlee about the role of technological innovation, storytelling, and myth in regional transformation. They also discuss how the peach paved the way for the invention of the pimento—now part of a beloved regional cheese spread—and harnessed cultural as well as technological forces.
Resources:
· Reach Cynthia R. Greenlee’s Issues essay, Reinventing the Peach, the Pimento, and Regional Identity.
· Visit Cynthia’s website to find more of her work. She has written on food, history, politics, and more.

Nov 15, 2022 • 35min
To Solve Societal Problems, Unite the Humanities with Science
How can music composition help students learn how to code? How can creative writing help medical practitioners improve care for their patients? Science and engineering have long been siloed from the humanities, arts, and social sciences, but uniting these disciplines could help leaders better understand and address problems like educational disparities, socioeconomic inequity, and decreasing national wellbeing.
On this episode, host Josh Trapani speaks to Kaye Husbands Fealing, dean of the Ivan Allen College of Liberal Arts at Georgia Tech, about her efforts to integrate humanities and social sciences with science and engineering. We also discuss her pivotal role in establishing the National Science Foundation’s Science of Science and Innovation Policy program, and why an integrative approach is crucial to solving societal problems.
Recommended Reading
· Read Kaye Husbands Fealing, Aubrey DeVeny Incorvaia, and Richard Utz’s Issues piece “Humanizing Science and Engineering for the Twenty-First Century” for for our series “The Next 75 Years of Science Policy," supported by the Kavli Foundation
[KS1]Think this is enough to justify using Kavli funds to promote this episode of the podcast?
· Visit Kaye Husbands Fealing’s webpage at Georgia Tech
· Read Julia Lane’s Issues piece “A Vision for Democratizing Government Data”
· Read National Science Board members Ellen Ochoa and Victor R. McCrary’s Issues piece “Cultivating America’s STEM Talent Must Begin at Home”
· Read John H. Marburger’s 2005 piece in Science “Wanted: Better Benchmarks”
· Look at the National Academies 2014 summary of the Science of Science and Innovation Policy (SciSIP) principal investigators conference
· View the webpage for the SciSIP program (renamed Science of Science: Discovery, Communication, and Impact) at the National Science Foundation

Nov 2, 2022 • 35min
How to Fix the Bus
This podcast discusses the problems with American buses, including their outdated design, discomfort, and hazards. The episode explores the physical and cognitive stressors faced by bus drivers, the challenges of COVID-19 for transit workers, and efforts to redesign buses for safety and efficiency. It also highlights the historical neglect of bus operators and the potential for a new bus design that improves air quality and safety.

Oct 4, 2022 • 45min
How can Clinical Trials Better Reflect Society’s Diversity?
Clinical trials are crucial to the development of new drugs, medical treatments, and therapeutics. The knowledge gained from these trials helps ensure that treatments are safe and effective. Trials are also sometimes the only way for patients to access the most cutting-edge therapies for a disease. However, wide swaths of the American population, including Black and Latino Americans who often face the greatest health challenges, are not adequately represented in the clinical trials and do not benefit equitably from this research.
In this episode, host Sara Frueh is joined by Gloria Coronado, an epidemiologist with the Kaiser Permanente Center for Health Research, and Jason Resendez, president of the National Alliance for Caregiving, to discuss the causes and consequences of this underrepresentation, and steps researchers and policymakers should take to remedy it.
Resources:
Read the May 2022 consensus report from the National Academies, Improving Representation in Clinical Trials and Research: Building Equity for Women and Underrepresented Groups.

Sep 20, 2022 • 40min
The Forgotten Origins of the Social Internet
The typical history of the internet tells a story that emphasizes experts and institutions: government, industry, and academia. In this origin story, the internet began as a product of the military during the Cold War, was adopted by academia and research institutions, and then Silicon Valley and the private sector brought it to the masses. What this history ignores, however, are the many computer enthusiasts and hobbyists of the 1980s who used modems to connect to bulletin board systems—creating thriving online communities well before most people ever heard about the “information superhighway.”
On this episode, host Jason Lloyd is joined by professor Kevin Driscoll from the University of Virginia to discuss how the forgotten history of bulletin board systems can help us understand today’s social media-dominated internet and build healthier, more inclusive online communities.
Resources:
· Read Kevin Driscoll’s Issues essay, “A Prehistory of Social Media,” and his book, The Modem World: A Prehistory of Social Media, to learn more about early social networks.
· Check out Kevin’s first book, Minitel: Welcome to the Internet, coauthored with Julien Mailland, on the French precursor to the internet. They also have a great websitefor the book.

Sep 6, 2022 • 34min
Fruitful Communities
Food is an essential part of our lives, but for many people fresh food is something they find in a grocery store, not growing in their communities. How can art and advances in agricultural science create new food resources, connect communities, and create more resilient food systems?
On this episode, host J. D. Talasek is joined by artists David Allen Burns and Austin Young of Fallen Fruit and professor Molly Jahn from the University of Wisconsin-Madison to explore how creativity and systems thinking can change the food system.
Resources:
Read about the “Subversive Beauty of Fallen Fruit” in Issues, and learn more about the Fallen Fruit collective’s artwork and projects by visiting the group’s website.
Explore the Endless Orchard to collaborate in creating the largest public orchard in the world.
Read Molly Jahn’s Issues article, “How ‘Multiple Breadbasket Failure’ Became a Policy Issue,” on her journey from making new squash varieties to trying to improve global food security.
Learn more about risk in food systems by visiting the Jahn Research Group, and take her free courses on “Systems Thinking.”

Jun 29, 2022 • 31min
BONUS EPISODE: A Historic Opportunity for U.S. Innovation
This summer, Congress is trying to reconcile the differences between two massive bills focused on strengthening US competitiveness and spurring innovation: the House-passed COMPETES Act and the Senate-passed USICA bill. In this episode, we speak with Mitch Ambrose from FYI, the American Institute of Physics’ science policy news service, about the historic conference aimed at negotiating the House and Senate bills. What are the competing visions for US competitiveness in the bills? How do the details get worked out, and what happens if Congress fails to reach an agreement?
Recommended Reading:
Follow FYI’s coverage and subscribe to their newsletters at aip.org/fyi.

May 24, 2022 • 35min
Biotech Goes to Summer Camp
Who gets to be a scientist? At BioJam, a free Northern California summer camp, the answer is everyone. This week we talk with Callie Chappell, Rolando Perez, and Corinne Okada Takara about how BioJam engages high school students and their communities to create art through bioengineering. Started as an intergenerational collective in 2019, BioJam was designed to change the model of science communication and education into a multi-way collaboration between the communities of Salinas, East San Jose, and Oakland, and artists and scientists at Stanford. At BioJam, youth are becoming leaders in the emerging fields of biodesign and biomaking—and in the process, redefining what it means to be a scientist.
Resources:
Read their essay, "Bioengineering Everywhere, For Everyone," and see the youth artwork.
Visit the BioJam website to learn more.

May 10, 2022 • 30min
Rethinking Hard Problems in Brain Science
When it comes to exploring the mind-boggling complexity of living systems—ranging from the origins of human consciousness to treatments for neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer’s—Susan Fitzpatrick has long been a critic of reductionist thinking. In this episode we talk with Fitzpatrick, who has spent three decades supporting brain research as president of the James S. McDonnell Foundation, about new ways to understand the human brain, the difficulty of developing an effective Alzheimer’s treatment, and how scientific research can successfully confront complex problems.
Further reading:
The James S. McDonnell Foundation website
Susan Fitzpatrick’s review of Metazoa by Peter Godfrey-Smith and Life’s Edge by Carl Zimmer
Her review of Brains Through Time by Georg F. Striedter and R. Glenn Northcutt
Her review of Mind Fixers by Anne Harrington
Her review of Chasing Men on Fire by Stephen G. Waxman and Understanding the Brain by John E. Dowling
“Asking the Right Questions in Alzheimer’s Research,” her Feature essay in the Fall 2018 Issues in Science and Technology
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