

The Ongoing Transformation
Issues in Science and Technology
The Ongoing Transformation is a biweekly podcast featuring conversations about science, technology, policy, and society. We talk with interesting thinkers—leading researchers, artists, policymakers, social theorists, and other luminaries—about the ways new knowledge transforms our world.
This podcast is presented by Issues in Science and Technology, a journal published by Arizona State University and the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. Visit issues.org and contact us at podcast@issues.org.
This podcast is presented by Issues in Science and Technology, a journal published by Arizona State University and the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. Visit issues.org and contact us at podcast@issues.org.
Episodes
Mentioned books

May 16, 2023 • 29min
Race, Genetics, and a “Most Dangerous Myth”
The concept of distinct races came from European naturalists in the 1700s and it’s now recognized as a social construct, rather than a biological classification. Nonetheless, genetics researchers sometimes use race or ethnicity to stand in for ancestry. This practice has been criticized for creating discrete categories where none exist and for underemphasizing the ways that environment and other nongenetic factors can contribute to ill health.
In March, the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine weighed in with a consensus report. It documented the problems of using race as a biological category in genetics studies and suggested more appropriate approaches. One of the report’s authors is Ann Morning, a professor of sociology at New York University. Over a decade ago she wrote the book The Nature of Race: How Scientists Think and Teach about Human Difference. She spoke with Issues editor Monya Baker about why race is a poor—but persistent—shorthand in genetics studies.
Resources
Read the National Academies’ consensus report Using Population Descriptors in Genetics and Genomics Research: A New Framework for an Evolving Field.
Books by Ann Morning: The Nature of Race: How Scientists Think and Teach about Human Difference and An Ugly Word: Rethinking Race in Italy and the United States (coauthored by Marcello Maneri).

May 2, 2023 • 39min
The Microscope and the Metaphor
What does intuitive, emotional poetry have in common with rational, empirical science? On this episode, host J. D. Talasek talks to poet Jane Hirshfield and neuroscientist Virginia Sturm to understand how they came to work together, and the connections they’ve found between poetry, neural science, and society. They discuss what Hirshfield calls the “mutual delight” they’ve found between poets and scientists as they consider how the microscope and the metaphor can be used to explore the world.
Hirshfield and Sturm also explore how poetry affects the brain, and what that reveals about the science of emotions and the complex ways that humans process language. Together they connect the dots on the surprising connection between poetry, empathy, science, and policy change.
Resources:
· Visit the Poets for Science exhibit at the National Academy of Sciences building in Washington, DC, until September 8, 2023. Learn more about Jane Hirshfield’s work and find upcoming exhibitions on the Poets for Science website.
· Visit the University of California San Francisco’s Clinical Affective Neuroscience Lab
website to find more of Virginia Sturm’s work.

4 snips
Apr 18, 2023 • 27min
To Solve the AI Problem, Rely on Policy, Not Technology
Leading scholar Kate Crawford discusses the potential harms of AI for society, emphasizing the need for policy, not just technology. They explore demystifying AI, addressing bias, and the importance of regulation to ensure safety, accountability, and transparency in AI systems.

Mar 28, 2023 • 32min
Finding Collective Advantage in Shared Knowledge
The CHIPS and Science Act aims to secure American competitiveness and innovation by investing $280 billion in domestic semiconductor manufacturing, scientific innovation, and regional development. But if past government investments in science and technology are any guide, this will affect American life in unexpected and profound ways—well beyond manufacturing and scientific laboratories.
On this episode, Michael Crow, president of Arizona State University, talks to host Lisa Margonelli about the CHIPS and Science Act in the context of previous American security investments. Investments in food security and agriculture in the 1860s and nuclear security in the 1940s and 50s created shared knowledge that benefitted all Americans. Early agricultural programs, for example, turned farmers into innovators, resulting in an agricultural sector that can feed many people with very little labor. In similar ways, today’s quest for digital security could make the country more secure, while also changing how individuals live and work with information.
Resources:
Read perspectives on How the CHIPS and Science Act Can Deliver on its Promises
Read A. Hunter Dupree’s Science in the Federal Government: A History of Policies and Activities
Read Michael Crow and William Dabars on The Emergence of the Fifth Wave in American Higher Education.

Mar 7, 2023 • 32min
Confronting Extreme Heat with the World’s First Chief Heat Officer
Miami is so renowned for its warm weather that its professional basketball team is the Miami Heat. But extreme heat can be life-threatening, even in cities like Miami that are used to high temperatures. And within cities, lower-income and minority neighborhoods feel the effects of extreme heat more acutely due to a lack of shade and green spaces. What can be done to protect vulnerable communities from extreme heat?
The world’s first chief heat officer, Jane Gilbert, who leads Miami-Dade County’s efforts to deal with extreme heat, is working on the answers. She recently spoke with Issues editor Jason Lloyd about the need for win-win solutions (more air conditioning alone can’t solve the problem), the difficulties of planting trees on busy streets, and engaging with citizens on solutions for keeping communities safe in a warmer future.
Resources
· Miami Dade County’s extreme heat resource page
· National Integrated Heat Health Information
· Visit Arsh-Rock’s Heat Action Platform to find more resources to combat extreme heat on the regional and municipal level, and learn more about Chief Heat Officers.
Transcript
Coming soon!

Feb 21, 2023 • 27min
You've Been Misinformed About Sharks
Recent conversations about scientific misinformation have concentrated on what is new: social media and algorithms that spread all kinds of information—reliable and unreliable—surprisingly fast. But misinformation has long been an issue for scientists who study sharks. The Discovery Channel’s Shark Week has anchored the idea of predatory, dangerous sharks in the public consciousness for 35 years, often wrapping its entertainments in the legitimizing cloak of science. In this episode, we talk with Arizona State University marine biologist David Shiffman, who studies sharks and the impacts of misinformation on shark conservation.
Resources
· Read David Shiffman’s book, Why Sharks Matter: A Deep Dive with the World’s Most Misunderstood Predator.
· Follow David on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
· What are the Odds?Compare shark attacks to other risks.

Feb 7, 2023 • 33min
What’s Driving the Electric Car Revival?
Matthew Eisler challenges the narrative that better batteries drove the growth of electric vehicles. He discusses the history of EV adoption, the metaphor of EVs as 'computers on wheels', the role of public policies in shaping the industry, and the significance of supply chains in supporting EV growth.

Jan 10, 2023 • 35min
Collaborations on Ice
How can scientific data be made more tangible, visceral, and experiential? Collaboration! Over the course of a four-year project, Arctic Ice: A Visual Archive, artist Cy Keener, landscape researcher Justine Holzman, climatologist Ignatius Rigor, and scientist John Woods integrated field data, remote satellite imagery, scientific analysis, and art to create visual representations of disappearing Arctic ice. Being deeply embedded in each other’s processes helped the artists and scientists foster new ideas and unexpected outcomes.
On this episode, host J. D. Talasek is joined by Keener and Rigor to discuss how to build successful collaborations across different disciplines and how creative practices can contribute to scientific research and communication.
Resources:
· See images from Arctic Ice and read more about the collaborative project in Issues in Science and Technology.
· Visit the Arctic Ice: A Visual Archive exhibition through February 15, 2023, by visiting the National Academy of Sciences Building in Washington, DC. Check out the CPNAS website to learn more about the exhibition and download a virtual catalogue.
· See more of Cy Keener’s work on his website.
· Visit the International Arctic Buoy Programme’s website to learn more about the program’s buoy maps, data, research, and publications.

Dec 20, 2022 • 41min
Shirley Malcom: Where Science and Society Meet
Shirley M. Malcom is a trailblazer in the area of broadening participation in science. Currently senior advisor and director of the SEA Change initiative at the American Association for the Advancement of Science, she has long worked to create institutional transformation in support of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
On this episode, we are delighted to feature her talk from the 2022 Henry and Bryna David lecture in its entirety. This lecture series is sponsored by the National Academies’ Division of Behavioral and Social Sciences and Education and Issues in Science and Technology. In her lecture, she talks about the importance of the behavioral sciences, social sciences, and education in evidence-based public policy. She brings her considerable expertise in public science literacy, issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion, and STEM education to bear on the challenges facing American society.
Resources
Read Shirley M. Malcom’s recent essay for Issues: “The Limiting Factor of ‘The Endless Frontier’ Is Still a Human One”
Visit the SEA Change website
Find more information about the David Lecture at the National Academies’ site

Dec 6, 2022 • 32min
Peaches, Pimentos, and Myths of Innovation
The challenge of transforming regional economies through technological innovation is at the heart of current discussions about science and industrial policy—not to mention the CHIPs and Science Act itself. To think about what regional transformation means, it’s worth revisiting the story of how a network of “fruit men” used the peach, and later the pimento, to change the South after the Civil War. Starting with a biotechnological invention—a shippable peach named the Elberta—this group built railroads, designed shipping methods, educated farmers, and eventually built factories that transformed the landscape and economy of the region. But this story isn’t only about tangible actions: the network used powerful storytelling and ideology to accomplish this revolution.
On this episode, host Lisa Margonelli talks with historian and journalist Cynthia Greenlee about the role of technological innovation, storytelling, and myth in regional transformation. They also discuss how the peach paved the way for the invention of the pimento—now part of a beloved regional cheese spread—and harnessed cultural as well as technological forces.
Resources:
· Reach Cynthia R. Greenlee’s Issues essay, Reinventing the Peach, the Pimento, and Regional Identity.
· Visit Cynthia’s website to find more of her work. She has written on food, history, politics, and more.