Outthinkers

Salim Ismail is the lead author of the bestselling business book, Exponential Organizations. A renowned technology strategist and serial entrepreneur with ties to Yahoo!, Google, and Singularity University, he consults with governments and the world’s top Fortune 500 companies on innovation and growth. His work has been featured in premier media outlets like the New York Times, Bloomberg Business Week, Fortune, Forbes, WIRED, Vogue, and the BBC. Salim founded ExOWorks in 2016 to help transform global business by catapulting organizations into the world of exponential thinking. He travels extensively sharing a global perspective on the impact of breakthrough technologies and how organizations can leverage these disruptions to grow 10 times faster than their peers. He is co-founder and Chairman of OpenExO and an active Board Member of the XPRIZE Foundation.In this podcast, he shares: Why a new breed of organization is emerging and what that organization looks like What exponential technologies are, which of those we should be tracking, and how they will impact your organizations’ future Three practical steps you can take to fight corporate antibodies and get your leadership to take innovation seriously __________________________________________________________________________________________"We've never seen this much innovation hit us at the same time globally, ever. That means, every piece that you thought about the world before is gone." -Salim Ismail__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Salim + The topic of today’s episode1:51—If you really know me you know that...2:10—What is your definition of strategy?2:58—Could you tell us about your journey with ExO, and what it is?5:54—Could you explain exponential technology to us?8:45—How can you function as an ExO organization (the ExO business model)10:45—Could you give us a breakdown of the tool set you use to transform a business into an exponential one?12:01—How can you overcome the existing business organization functions to get ideas from being just ideas to reality?14:26—How do you disrupt your organization's own immune system?16:55—How are companies branding themselves differently in light of this new wave of businesses?18:05—What is your opinion on all the newer technologies that have surfaced in the last few year (blockchain, crypto, etc.)?20:27—Where can people follow you and your work__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Personal Page: https://salimismail.com/Twitter: https://twitter.com/salimismailExOworks Site: https://www.exo.works/salim-ismailLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/salimismailThank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Dr. Geoff Smart is the Chairman & Founder of ghSMART. Founded in 1995, ghSMART helps Fortune 500 CEOs & boards, billionaire entrepreneurs, and heads of state achieve their goals through hiring, developing, and leading talented teams. They serve clients globally from 12 offices in North America and Europe. For three consecutive years, Forbes named ghSMART the best management consulting firm in its industry segment. ghSMART is the subject of two Harvard Business School Cases, and its credo is “We exist to help leaders amplify their positive impact on the world.” ghSMART has published three bestselling books. Who: A Method for Hiring is a New York Times bestseller that is currently ranked #1 on Amazon.com on the topic of hiring talented teams, among a number of other bestsellers such as TopGrading and the Power Score. Geoff has personally advised four sitting U.S. Governors, a U.S. Senator, White House Fellows, world leaders in education, defense, and public health, and the President of the World Bank. In this podcast, he shares: What Peter Drucker really meant by “Culture eats strategy for breakfast.” Insights from a decades-long study into hiring practicesThe big reasons why the success rate in hiring is only 50% The four practices you can put in place to raise that success rate to 90% __________________________________________________________________________________________"So to me, strategy and culture both come from having better talent, more talented, diverse good-hearted people on your team than the next competitor. That's the work, that's the hard work once you have that "Oh, sure let's go international, let's go digital, let's smoke this set of competitors. Let's do this customer segmentation." You can do strategy when you have the right talent and culture." -Geoff Smart__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Geoff + The topic of today’s episode2:13—If you really know me you know that...2:54—What is your definition of strategy?3:59—What did you take away with your experience working with Peter Drucker?6:31—Could you give us a brief overview of the framework from your most successful book, Who?8:54—What are things you shouldn't do when hiring?10:49—What are the four things you should be doing for successful hiring?15:29—The third step of the hiring framework16:37—The last step of the framework17:19—What is something you've changed your mind about?18:14—How can people connect with you and learn more about what you're working on?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Personal Page: https://geoffsmart.com/Twitter: https://twitter.com/geoffreysmartBooks: https://www.amazon.com/Geoff-Smart/e/B001J8ZIV8%3FrThank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Ajay Banga is the 14th President of the World Bank Group. Prior to this he was Vice Chairman at General Atlantic, which he joined after 12 years at the helm of Mastercard, leading the company through a strategic, technological and cultural transformation over 11 years as president and chief executive officer and one year as executive chair of the board of directors. Under Ajay leadership, Mastercard’s stock price grew from $30 to $350 per share.Ajay began his career at Nestlé, India, where for 13 years he worked on assignments spanning sales, marketing and general management. He also spent two years with PepsiCo before joining Citigroup, where he rose to the role of chief executive officer of Citigroup Asia Pacific. Over the course of his career, he’s become a global leader in technology, data, financial services and innovating for inclusion. Ajay also serves as Chairman of the International Chamber of Commerce and is an Independent Director at Temasek and for Exor, where he serves as Chair of the company’s Environmental, Social, and Corporate Governance Committee. He became an advisor to General Atlantic’s BeyondNetZero venture at its inception in 2021. He is a co-founder of The Cyber Readiness Institute, Vice Chair of the Economic Club of New York, a former member of the World Economic Forum’s EDISON Alliance, and served as a member of President Obama’s Commission on Enhancing National Cybersecurity, and a past member of the U.S. President’s Advisory Committee for Trade Policy and Negotiations, among many other roles he has served.In this podcast, he shares: How under his leadership, he significantly grew Mastercard’s stock price How to connect your company’s message to a global purpose What advice Ajay would offer as a CEO to CSOs Best career advice he ever received as a CEO How he structures his day in juggling so many responsibilities__________________________________________________________________________________________"Strategy is a way to create a shining city on the hill, for you to know where you want people to go and to define a way to climb that hill, and to give them the tools and resources to get there. If you do that well and if you do it with simplicity and you do it with clarity—If you do that well, Kaihan, then you have what I call strategy." -Ajay Banga__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Ajay + The topic of today’s episode2:30—If you really know me you know that...3:17—What is your definition of strategy?6:01—Could you share the strategies you used when significantly growing Mastercard's stock price?9:25—Could you talk about the brand messages you've championed, and how they were transcendent messages that elevated both the business and world?15:18—What is the best advice you ever received in your career?17:33—Do you have an advice for strategy officers from a CEO?20:29—Do you have any tips for amplifying informal influence?22:47—How do you introduce urgency in a way that moves people to action, not panic?24:17—How do you structure your day to be efficient as a CEO?26:26—What is your secret to staying on top of communications and email?28:31—What are you working on now__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Thank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Pete Newell is a nationally-recognized innovation expert whose work is transforming how the government and other large organizations compete and drive growth. He is the CEO of BMNT, an innovation consultancy and early-stage tech accelerator that helps solve some of the hardest real-world problems in national security, state and local governments, and beyond. Pete is a founder and co-author, with Lean Startup founder Steve Blank, of Hacking for Defense (H4D)®, an academic program that focuses on solving national security problems. It has in turned created a series of sister courses—Hacking for Diplomacy, Hacking for Oceans, Hacking for Sustainability, Hacking for Local and others—that use the H4X® framework to solve critical real-world problems Pete is also the Co-Founder and Board Director of The Common Mission Project, a 501c3 non-profit responsible for creating an international network of mission-driven entrepreneurs, including through programs like H4D®. Pete served as the Director of the US Army’s Rapid Equipping Force (REF). Reporting directly to the senior leadership of the Army, he was charged with rapidly finding, integrating, and employing solutions to emerging problems faced by Soldiers on the battlefield and was responsible for the Army’s first deployment of mobile manufacturing labs, smart phones merged with tactical radio networks, and tactical drones. In this podcast, he shares: Lessons from accelerating innovation in the military that can be applied to business The key stages you should be focusing on in your innovation pipeline Why driving innovation is sociological problem, not a technical one The first step you should take if you want to elevate innovation in your organization __________________________________________________________________________________________"Part of the beauty of a pipeline is that you start with a lot of volume and you make hard decisions about the things that go through it. So that increases the velocity, both in terms of speed and pressure, because it allows you to focus your resources on a smaller and a smaller group of things until you pile everything you own on the things that you know are going to win, but you can't get there without having a large pool of things you're sourcing." -Pete Newell__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Pete + The topic of today’s episode2:11—If you really know me you know that...3:04—What is your definition of strategy?3:44—Could you tell us a little bit about your background and what led you to your work?6:15—Could you walk us through the key 10 steps of your process of innovation?9:27—Where do you think large organizations most often falter in this process?11:00—How does an organization flip failure to seeing it as learning?15:20—Could you share an example of an organization that gets this process more right than others?17:18—How do you balance speed and killing ideas off?17:57—What are the first steps a Chief Strategy Officer should take in their organization?19:08—How can people connect with you and learn more about what you're working on?_____________________________________________________________________Thank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

*Note to listeners* This episode is part of a special sub-series on business ecosystems.Felix Oberholzer-Gee is the Andreas Andresen Professor of Business Administration at Harvard Business School. An award-winning instructor, his academic work has been published in the very best, peer-reviewed journals of his profession, and he currently teaches competitive strategy in executive education programs. His work is largely focused on helping businesses apply his framework of Value-Based Strategy, in which businesses learn to identify the biggest value drivers. Within ecosystem-based competition, he’s identified how to specifically leverage ecosystems in maximizing the value delivered to stakeholders.In this podcast, he shares: How Value-Based Strategy applies to ecosystems, and how to identify where to draw and give the most value within one Balancing the dynamics and relationships between your company and different players in your ecosystemHow to identify what complements are best for your businessMotivating partners in the ecosystem to make investments in complements that would deliver value to your customersWhat adjustments you need to make within your business model and culture to incorporate ecosystemsGrowing your bargaining power and maximizing the value you draw from an ecosystem as you put more value into it__________________________________________________________________________________________"When companies vertically integrate the most common reason for that they will say is, 'I get so much more control.' And then you ask people inside your organization, 'What's the hardest thing to do?' And they will tell you, 'Alignment is hard because I don't really have control over everyone.' Well, which is it? Do you have control or do you not have control?"-Felix Oberholzer-Gee__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Felix + The topic of today’s episode1:35—Could you describe the concept of your 'Value Stick' to us to get familiar?3:10—Why are ecosystems helpful in staying competitive?8:34—How the nature and inclusivity of an ecosystem largely depends on who started it, for what purpose, and the capacity to scale10:42—How do you balance how much you're depending on an ecosystem for complements with giving away customer relationship ownership?13:52—The two rules the relationship manager working in ecosystems must remember17:51—How do you manage a changing relationship (buy-out, M&A, etc.) and the effects of that on how much value is being put in vs. received in an ecosystem?21:51—When is the right time to seek vertical integration?23:59—How do you translate your idea of the value stick in a model like ecosystems?29:03—How does the strategy thinking need to change for a company that's starting to embrace the idea of ecosystems?33:22—What should you consider about switching costs in relation to ecosystems?35:20—What are some last closing thoughts you'd like to leave us with?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Faculty Page at HThank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Richard P. Rumelt is one of the world’s most influential thinkers on strategy and management. McKinsey Quarterly described him as “strategy’s strategist” and “a giant in the field of strategy.” He is the author of Good Strategy/Bad Strategy: The Difference and Why It Matters, reviewed by the Financial Times as “the most interesting business book of 2011” and by Strategy + Business as “the year’s best and most original addition to the strategy bookshelf.” Richard received his doctoral degree from Harvard Business School and is the Harry and Elise Kunin Chair Emeritus at the UCLA Anderson School of Management. His new book, The Crux, goes on sale May 3, 2022, from PublicAffairs. In this podcast, he shares: Why so many organizations practice “Bad Strategy” and how to spot it when you see it Why strategy is fundamentally about solving problems How the secret behind the strategies of SpaceX and other breakthrough companies rests on finding the “crux” of the problem and how to choose a crux that others are not paying attention to Why we see so much vertical integration today and when that will change The three skills of: figuring out what is critical, constraining what is critical vs. what is controllable, and focusing energy on that __________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Richard + The topic of today’s episode1:46—If you really know me you know that...2:20—What is your definition of strategy?6:38—What are some of the ideas or concepts you are most well-known for?9:17—How do you recognize bad strategy?10:39—Could you explain the concept of "crux"?14:50—How to narrow down on actual challenge being solved16:40—Do you think you've seen a rise in vertical integration, and what is your opinion on it?18:48—Where can people find you and connect with you?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Faculty Page: https://www.anderson.ucla.edu/faculty-and-research/strategy/faculty/rumeltNewest book: https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/titles/richard-p-rumelt/the-crux/9781541701243/Last book: http://goodbadstrategy.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rumelt-18520828/Thank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

*Note to listeners* This episode is part of a special sub-series on business ecosystems.Ben Gomes-Casseres has been studying ecosystems since before the term as we know it existed. He is an expert on business combinations, in particular alliance strategy and management, having researched this topic for 30 years. He has published five books and many articles and case studies on M&A, alliances, and joint ventures, and his views have appeared widely in the business press. Ben helps companies create value from external resources by improving the way they manage partnerships. He holds degrees from Harvard, Princeton, and Brandeis. A native of Curaçao, he speaks four languages, and his work can be found at www.remixstrategy.com. Drawing from his experience at the beginning of the development of business ecosystems while studying computer companies in the early 90s, Ben has followed the development of ecosystems from a research standpoint since its infancy. In this discussion, Ben shares the in-depth insights he has learned over his time as a cutting edge—and early—expert of ecosystem study. In this discussion, Ben shares his insights onIn this podcast, he shares: What he learned from the earliest industries that adopted ecosystems and ecosystem-based competition as a business modelThe background and development of the term “ecosystems” as we know it todayThe various types of ecosystems, and the different terms used to describe these groupsHis Remix Strategy he developed as a result of his long-term research, including the three laws of business combinationsHow to play fairly in an ecosystem, ensuring that you add to its value rather than take away from itA practical set of questions that will help you determine where you can draw value from joining an ecosystem, and in what ways__________________________________________________________________________________________"So, it has really been this interesting shift that kind of 2000, this chasm was crossed around opening up ecosystems to different kinds of partners as well, the opportunity to reach different kinds of customers in new ways through new channels."-Ben Gomes-Casseres__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Ben + The topic of today’s episode1:47—How did you fall into studying ecosystems before it was even a known area?7:26—How constellations (ecosystems) have evolved in the way they're perceived and defined over time9:10—Could you walk us through your model of the three laws of business combinations?12:07—The first law of business combinations13:10—The second law of business combinations15:41—The third law of business combinations18:41—What kind of changes does an organization need to make to be effective in ecosystem-based competition (mindset, capabilities, key success, factors, organizations, structure, incentives)?21:45—How do you decide what ecosystem to plug into if you're not yet in one?23:18—How does an ecosystem become more fragemented at the ecosystem or constellation level? What factors go into deciding is?26:08—How different ecosystems can be organized depending on their needs26:08Thank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Amy Webb is a quantitative futurist and a bestselling, award-winning author. She is a professor of strategic foresight at the NYU Stern School of Business and the Founder of the Future Today Institute, a leading foresight and strategy firm that helps leaders and their organizations prepare for complex futures. Amy has advised CEOs and heads of strategy of some of the world’s largest companies, three-star generals and admirals and executive government leadership on strategy and technology. She was also a Delegate on the former U.S.- Russia Bilateral Presidential Commission, where she worked on the future of technology, media and international diplomacy. She is the author of several popular books, including The Big Nine: How the Tech Titans and Their Thinking Machines Could Warp Humanity, which was longlisted for the Financial Times & McKinsey Business Book of the Year award, shortlisted for the Thinkers50 Digital Thinking Award, and won the 2020 Gold Axiom Medal for the best book about business and technology. She also wrote The Signals Are Talking: Why Today’s Fringe Is Tomorrow’s Mainstream, which won the Thinkers50 Radar Award, was selected as one of Fast Company’s Best Books of 2016, Amazon’s best books 2016, and was the recipient of the 2017 Gold Axiom Medal for the best book about business and technology. Amy was named by Forbes as one of the five women changing the world, listed as the BBC’s 100 Women of 2020, and the Thinkers50 Radar list of the 30 management thinkers most likely to shape the future of how organizations are managed and led. In this podcast, she shares: Why we should be doing 'back-casting' rather than forecasting Why strategizing for the future is NOT about predicting it, but instead about shifting your mindset to be prepared for the future’s uncertainty Some practical advice about who should be doing the kind of future planning work that that is so critical for today for any organization that wants to remain relevant __________________________________________________________________________________________"If you're on a three-year strategic planning cycle, typically...you're marking milestones and KPIs...on that corporate strategy. The problem is that it doesn't account for uncertainty. This is where a lot of companies fall short, and they don't have the ability to recalibrate. So I do not use a line, I use a cone it's a different shape. So the intersecting vectors where that cone begins on the left that represents today. And the further out in time, you go, the wider, the angle becomes on the inside of that cone. And that represents uncertainty over time."-Amy Webb__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Amy + The topic of today’s episode2:10—What is your definition of strategy?3:32—A model for thinking about time and foresight6:05—What's a tip or go-strategy for getting people to appreciate the importance of thinking of long-term horizons?8:15—Could you explain the difference between predicting the future vs. being ready for many possible futures. Could you explain the difference?10:22—Using data and evidence to model out plausible next-order impacts12:24—The term and history of the futurist13:50—Could you describe your work inThank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Prof. Dr. Christian Busch is the bestselling author of The Serendipity Mindset: The Art & Science of Creating Good Luck. Arianna Huffington called it “a wise, exciting, and life-changing book” that Paul Polman says “provides excellent practical guidance for all.” Christian is an internationally-known expert in the areas of innovation, purpose-driven leadership, and serendipity. He is the director of the CGA Global Economy Program at NYU, and also teaches at the London School of Economics. He is a cofounder of Leaders on Purpose and the Sandbox Network, and a former director of LSE's Innovation Lab. His work has been featured by outlets such as the Strategic Management Journal,Harvard Business Review, Forbes, The Guardian, Washington Post, and the BBC. He is member of the World Economic Forum's (WEF) Expert Forum, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and on the Thinkers50 Radar list of the 30 thinkers "most likely to shape the future. In this podcast, he shares: His concept that luck (or serendipity) is not random, but can actually be cultivated Some of the specific characteristics and practices of organizations that are able to turn unexpected events, trends, market developments into opportunity Some really practical ways you can start generating more luck, for yourself, your life, and your organization __________________________________________________________________________________________"That...idea that we have to stick to the plan is something that...portrays authority, portrays the idea that we are reliable and dependable, but actually a lot of times it does the opposite in the end because we now have an incentive to hide numbers, to somehow try to figure out how we can tweak the budgets to still look good. And so actually from a performer perspective, we actually a lot of times do the opposite."-Christian Busch__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Christian+ The topic of today’s episode2:23—What is your definition of strategy?4:23—How did you get into the idea of serendipity?5:28—How can serendipity be applied to business?7:10—What are the barriers to seeing these opportunities that serendipity affords?10:52—What are other leverage points to embed serendipity into a company's culture?13:05—How companies can encourage or kill serendipity21:30—What is something people get wrong? 17:40—Could you explain your concept of casting hooks?19:04—How can people connect with you?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Company Page: https://theserendipitymindset.com/Twitter: https://twitter.com/chrisserendipLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/today/author/christianwbuschThank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

*Note to listeners* This episode is part of a special sub-series on business ecosystems.Tiffani Bova is the chief growth evangelist at Salesforce and the author of the Wall Street Journal bestselling book GROWTH IQ: Get Smarter About the Choices that Will Make or Break Your Business. Tiffani has been named to the latest Thinkers50’s list of the world’s top management thinkers and is a welcomed guest on Bloomberg, BNN, Cheddar, MSNBC, and Yahoo Finance, among others. She also contributes her thinking to publications including Harvard Business Review, Forbes, Entrepreneur, Quora, Thrive, among others. She is a change-maker who’s thought-provoking and forward-thinking insights have made her a frequent guest on a variety of industry-leading podcasts and live broadcasts. Tiffani Bova began her career as a sales, marketing and customer service executive for startups and Fortune 500 companies where she was recognized as being one of the first to develop a robust go-to-market model for cloud-based solutions and indirect channel strategies. This experience brought her to Salesforce where she became global growth evangelist, driving customer success through a vast network of customer and partner ecosystems. She has consistently been a leader in witnessing, understanding and helping shape the relationship with ecosystems across various organizations. In this discussion, Tiffani shares her insights on:In this podcast, she shares: What defines an ecosystem, and why it’s more common than you may thinkThe history of ecosystems, as she witnessed them on the frontlines, and how the internet and digital technology have accelerated their prevalenceA practical set of steps and questions to decide if an ecosystem is right for your company, where to draw value from it, and deciding how it will help close your gapsThe importance of putting the customer first when making the decision to join an ecosystem The different types of relationships you can develop with partners in an ecosystemHow ecosystems can become a significant part of your profitability—and why this is critical to your success__________________________________________________________________________________________"So, it has really been this interesting shift that kind of 2000, this chasm was crossed around opening up ecosystems to different kinds of partners as well, the opportunity to reach different kinds of customers in new ways through new channels."-Tiffani Bova__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Tiffani + The topic of today’s episode1:58—What are your thoughts on the future of ecosystem-based competition?5:28—How partnerships in ecosystems are different than traditional business partnerships7:03—How the internet has changed ecosystems by connecting different players to customers8:17—Are there more ecosystem-based companies now?9:57—What are sources of competitive advantage of key success factors that companies need to add to their strategic toolkit in light of ecosystems becoming more prevalent? 15:54—What can you tell us about ecosystem players that just join an ecosystem, vs. have to do a lot of the heavy lifting to build it?21:29—What are tThank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast