Emmanuel Probst is Global Lead, Brand Thought-Leadership at Ipsos, adjunct professor at the University of California at Los Angeles, and the author of Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestseller Brand Hacks: How to Build Brands by Fulfilling the Human Quest for Meaning Emmanuel’s background combines over 16 years of market research and marketing experience with strong academic achievements. At Ipsos, Emmanuel supports numerous Fortune 500 companies by providing them with a full understanding of their customer’s journey. His clients span across a wide range of industries, including consumer packaged goods, retail, financial services, advertising agencies and media outlets. Emmanuel also teaches Consumer Market Research at UCLA and writes about consumer psychology for numerous publications. He holds an MBA in Marketing from the University of Hull, United Kingdom and a Doctorate in Consumer Psychology from the University of Nottingham Trent, United Kingdom. In this podcast, he shares: In what ways B2B branding and B2C branding are different, and in what ways they are the same Why brands are increasingly finding they need to compete on purpose rather than the uniqueness of their product Why to be effective at competing the ecosystem-based future we will need to think about activating a community of companies, bound by a common purpose, to deliver experiences rather than outcomes __________________________________________________________________________________________"What people care about is find something that is fulfilling and something that contributes to building their personality and who they and their family and their world. And brands can help with this. What feels really important to me is the hero is the audience whom becomes the consumer. The hero is not the brand." -Emmanuel Probst__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Emmanuel + The topic of today’s episode2:35—What is your definition of strategy?2:57—You write a lot about meaning, can you define what you mean by meaning?5:20—Is brand purpose different than meaning?8:38—While the principles we've talked can work on the B2B side, they are more consumer-focused. How do you make them work to your advantage in B2B?10:39—A brand often has a customer brand and an employer brand—do you think establishing an "ecosystem" brand to appeal to potential partners?13:11—How do you approach segmenting the different needs various partners may have?17:09—Is developing a brand for an ecosystem different than developing a brand for a product or company?21:20—We're shifting towards attracting partners that can help complement the overall customer experience, not just product. What are your thoughts on that?23:45—Do you have any last thoughts you'd like to share?24:34—Where can people follow you and your work?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emmanuelprobstTwitter: Thank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Admiral James Stavridis, USN (Ret.) spent more than thirty years in the U.S. Navy, rising to the rank of four-star admiral. He was Supreme Allied Commander at NATO and previously commanded U.S. Southern Command, overseeing military operations through Latin America. At sea, he commanded a Navy destroyer, a destroyer squadron, and an aircraft carrier battle group in combat. He holds a Ph. D. from the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University, where he recently served five years as dean. He received fifty medals in the course of his military career, including twenty-eight from foreign nations. James is the author of To Risk It All: Nine Conflicts and the Crucible of Decision, which he shares insights from here. He has published nine other books, including 2034: A Novel of the Next World War, with Elliott Ackerman. He is chief international analyst for NBC News and a contributing editor for Time magazine. He is currently the Vice Chair, Global Affairs of the Carlyle Group and the Chair of the Board of Trustees for the Rockefeller Foundation In this podcast, he shares: The strategic lesson we can draw from great military leaders of the past, John Paul Jones, and today, Admiral Michelle Howard Four keys to making the right decision, especially in moments of urgency Tips for keeping focused on your “north star” and avoid getting distracted by near-term noise __________________________________________________________________________________________"You have to be willing to bet on yourself in the hardest situations and be determined even when things appear to be going against you." -Admiral James Stavridis__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing James + The topic of today’s episode2:22—If you really know me you know that...3:18—What is your definition of strategy?3:40—What do people get wrong with strategy?4:30—Can you outline the topics in your book, To Risk it All?7:31—Could you tell us about the nine core principles and lessons from your stories?11:00—Could you talk about how your ideas aren't about having a structured set of contingency plans, but more a cultural shift in mindset to be prepared—could you talk about that?12:50—How do you keep a clear eye on the right target, the "north star" so to speak?14:48—What's something you've changed your mind about?17:17—Could you tell us about your novel, 2034: A Novel of the Next World War?18:38—What put you on the path of entrepreneurship that led you to Village Global, your venture capital firm?18:43—Where can people follow you and your work?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Personal Page: https://admiralstav.com/Twitter: https://twitter.com/stavridisjBooks: https://admirThank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Ben Casnocha is an entrepreneur and cofounder of Village Global, a Silicon Valley venture capital firm that has funded hundreds of startups and the co-author, with LinkedIn co-founder Reid Hoffman, of The Start-Up of You: Adapt, Take Risks, Grow your Network, and Transform Your Career. He delivers keynote speeches on business and globalization and has appeared on CBS’s The Early Show, CNN, and CNBC. He is the coauthor of the New York Times bestselling management book The Alliance: Managing Talent in the Networked Age (with LinkedIn chairman Reid Hoffman and entrepreneur Chris Yeh). He started and scaled several ventures, including an e-government software company (Comcate) that currently delivers hosted CRM solutions to hundreds of local governments in America, an online education business, and a top tier boutique management training business. In this podcast, he shares: His view on what the future of work will look like, and why embracing randomness and building your network will become ever more important Why we should stop thinking of employees as “family” or “free agents” but rather as allies on a “tour of duty” Whether we are experiencing today a true shift in the nature of the employer-employee contract, or whether the pendulum will swing back __________________________________________________________________________________________"One of the new terms is the concept of portfolio careers because we realized that in the last 10 years, there are so many people who don't just have one job. Their career is stitched together, different a lot of writers and speakers and consultants run this at the high end. And at the low end, it's gig workers and everywhere in between. And so people are stitching together kind of braiding the modern career together in a way that's very different than the 40-hour-a-week company man." -Ben Casnocha__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Ben + The topic of today’s episode1:51—If you really know me you know that...2:13—What is your definition of strategy?2:54—Could you tell us about your book, The Startup of You?5:44—What do you think has changed in the job market that prompted you to change the title of your book from the first to the second edition?7:41—Can you tell us about how leadership has changed from authority to creating followership?9:24—What are the implications of your insights into how hiring consequently changes because of these insights?10:50—What are your thoughts of how the average tenure of CEOs has changed in the last 10 years to be much shorter?12:58—Do you believe that the shift of power from the employer to the employee is permanent or will swing back at some point?16:36—Could you talk to us about your idea of luck?18:38—What put you on the path of entrepreneurship that led you to Village Global, your venture capital firm?20:13—Where can people follow you and your work?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Personal Page: Thank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Salim Ismail is the lead author of the bestselling business book, Exponential Organizations. A renowned technology strategist and serial entrepreneur with ties to Yahoo!, Google, and Singularity University, he consults with governments and the world’s top Fortune 500 companies on innovation and growth. His work has been featured in premier media outlets like the New York Times, Bloomberg Business Week, Fortune, Forbes, WIRED, Vogue, and the BBC. Salim founded ExOWorks in 2016 to help transform global business by catapulting organizations into the world of exponential thinking. He travels extensively sharing a global perspective on the impact of breakthrough technologies and how organizations can leverage these disruptions to grow 10 times faster than their peers. He is co-founder and Chairman of OpenExO and an active Board Member of the XPRIZE Foundation.In this podcast, he shares: Why a new breed of organization is emerging and what that organization looks like What exponential technologies are, which of those we should be tracking, and how they will impact your organizations’ future Three practical steps you can take to fight corporate antibodies and get your leadership to take innovation seriously __________________________________________________________________________________________"We've never seen this much innovation hit us at the same time globally, ever. That means, every piece that you thought about the world before is gone." -Salim Ismail__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Salim + The topic of today’s episode1:51—If you really know me you know that...2:10—What is your definition of strategy?2:58—Could you tell us about your journey with ExO, and what it is?5:54—Could you explain exponential technology to us?8:45—How can you function as an ExO organization (the ExO business model)10:45—Could you give us a breakdown of the tool set you use to transform a business into an exponential one?12:01—How can you overcome the existing business organization functions to get ideas from being just ideas to reality?14:26—How do you disrupt your organization's own immune system?16:55—How are companies branding themselves differently in light of this new wave of businesses?18:05—What is your opinion on all the newer technologies that have surfaced in the last few year (blockchain, crypto, etc.)?20:27—Where can people follow you and your work__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Personal Page: https://salimismail.com/Twitter: https://twitter.com/salimismailExOworks Site: https://www.exo.works/salim-ismailLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/salimismailThank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Dr. Geoff Smart is the Chairman & Founder of ghSMART. Founded in 1995, ghSMART helps Fortune 500 CEOs & boards, billionaire entrepreneurs, and heads of state achieve their goals through hiring, developing, and leading talented teams. They serve clients globally from 12 offices in North America and Europe. For three consecutive years, Forbes named ghSMART the best management consulting firm in its industry segment. ghSMART is the subject of two Harvard Business School Cases, and its credo is “We exist to help leaders amplify their positive impact on the world.” ghSMART has published three bestselling books. Who: A Method for Hiring is a New York Times bestseller that is currently ranked #1 on Amazon.com on the topic of hiring talented teams, among a number of other bestsellers such as TopGrading and the Power Score. Geoff has personally advised four sitting U.S. Governors, a U.S. Senator, White House Fellows, world leaders in education, defense, and public health, and the President of the World Bank. In this podcast, he shares: What Peter Drucker really meant by “Culture eats strategy for breakfast.” Insights from a decades-long study into hiring practicesThe big reasons why the success rate in hiring is only 50% The four practices you can put in place to raise that success rate to 90% __________________________________________________________________________________________"So to me, strategy and culture both come from having better talent, more talented, diverse good-hearted people on your team than the next competitor. That's the work, that's the hard work once you have that "Oh, sure let's go international, let's go digital, let's smoke this set of competitors. Let's do this customer segmentation." You can do strategy when you have the right talent and culture." -Geoff Smart__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Geoff + The topic of today’s episode2:13—If you really know me you know that...2:54—What is your definition of strategy?3:59—What did you take away with your experience working with Peter Drucker?6:31—Could you give us a brief overview of the framework from your most successful book, Who?8:54—What are things you shouldn't do when hiring?10:49—What are the four things you should be doing for successful hiring?15:29—The third step of the hiring framework16:37—The last step of the framework17:19—What is something you've changed your mind about?18:14—How can people connect with you and learn more about what you're working on?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Personal Page: https://geoffsmart.com/Twitter: https://twitter.com/geoffreysmartBooks: https://www.amazon.com/Geoff-Smart/e/B001J8ZIV8%3FrThank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Ajay Banga is the 14th President of the World Bank Group. Prior to this he was Vice Chairman at General Atlantic, which he joined after 12 years at the helm of Mastercard, leading the company through a strategic, technological and cultural transformation over 11 years as president and chief executive officer and one year as executive chair of the board of directors. Under Ajay leadership, Mastercard’s stock price grew from $30 to $350 per share.Ajay began his career at Nestlé, India, where for 13 years he worked on assignments spanning sales, marketing and general management. He also spent two years with PepsiCo before joining Citigroup, where he rose to the role of chief executive officer of Citigroup Asia Pacific. Over the course of his career, he’s become a global leader in technology, data, financial services and innovating for inclusion. Ajay also serves as Chairman of the International Chamber of Commerce and is an Independent Director at Temasek and for Exor, where he serves as Chair of the company’s Environmental, Social, and Corporate Governance Committee. He became an advisor to General Atlantic’s BeyondNetZero venture at its inception in 2021. He is a co-founder of The Cyber Readiness Institute, Vice Chair of the Economic Club of New York, a former member of the World Economic Forum’s EDISON Alliance, and served as a member of President Obama’s Commission on Enhancing National Cybersecurity, and a past member of the U.S. President’s Advisory Committee for Trade Policy and Negotiations, among many other roles he has served.In this podcast, he shares: How under his leadership, he significantly grew Mastercard’s stock price How to connect your company’s message to a global purpose What advice Ajay would offer as a CEO to CSOs Best career advice he ever received as a CEO How he structures his day in juggling so many responsibilities__________________________________________________________________________________________"Strategy is a way to create a shining city on the hill, for you to know where you want people to go and to define a way to climb that hill, and to give them the tools and resources to get there. If you do that well and if you do it with simplicity and you do it with clarity—If you do that well, Kaihan, then you have what I call strategy." -Ajay Banga__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Ajay + The topic of today’s episode2:30—If you really know me you know that...3:17—What is your definition of strategy?6:01—Could you share the strategies you used when significantly growing Mastercard's stock price?9:25—Could you talk about the brand messages you've championed, and how they were transcendent messages that elevated both the business and world?15:18—What is the best advice you ever received in your career?17:33—Do you have an advice for strategy officers from a CEO?20:29—Do you have any tips for amplifying informal influence?22:47—How do you introduce urgency in a way that moves people to action, not panic?24:17—How do you structure your day to be efficient as a CEO?26:26—What is your secret to staying on top of communications and email?28:31—What are you working on now__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Thank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Pete Newell is a nationally-recognized innovation expert whose work is transforming how the government and other large organizations compete and drive growth. He is the CEO of BMNT, an innovation consultancy and early-stage tech accelerator that helps solve some of the hardest real-world problems in national security, state and local governments, and beyond. Pete is a founder and co-author, with Lean Startup founder Steve Blank, of Hacking for Defense (H4D)®, an academic program that focuses on solving national security problems. It has in turned created a series of sister courses—Hacking for Diplomacy, Hacking for Oceans, Hacking for Sustainability, Hacking for Local and others—that use the H4X® framework to solve critical real-world problems Pete is also the Co-Founder and Board Director of The Common Mission Project, a 501c3 non-profit responsible for creating an international network of mission-driven entrepreneurs, including through programs like H4D®. Pete served as the Director of the US Army’s Rapid Equipping Force (REF). Reporting directly to the senior leadership of the Army, he was charged with rapidly finding, integrating, and employing solutions to emerging problems faced by Soldiers on the battlefield and was responsible for the Army’s first deployment of mobile manufacturing labs, smart phones merged with tactical radio networks, and tactical drones. In this podcast, he shares: Lessons from accelerating innovation in the military that can be applied to business The key stages you should be focusing on in your innovation pipeline Why driving innovation is sociological problem, not a technical one The first step you should take if you want to elevate innovation in your organization __________________________________________________________________________________________"Part of the beauty of a pipeline is that you start with a lot of volume and you make hard decisions about the things that go through it. So that increases the velocity, both in terms of speed and pressure, because it allows you to focus your resources on a smaller and a smaller group of things until you pile everything you own on the things that you know are going to win, but you can't get there without having a large pool of things you're sourcing." -Pete Newell__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Pete + The topic of today’s episode2:11—If you really know me you know that...3:04—What is your definition of strategy?3:44—Could you tell us a little bit about your background and what led you to your work?6:15—Could you walk us through the key 10 steps of your process of innovation?9:27—Where do you think large organizations most often falter in this process?11:00—How does an organization flip failure to seeing it as learning?15:20—Could you share an example of an organization that gets this process more right than others?17:18—How do you balance speed and killing ideas off?17:57—What are the first steps a Chief Strategy Officer should take in their organization?19:08—How can people connect with you and learn more about what you're working on?_____________________________________________________________________Thank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

*Note to listeners* This episode is part of a special sub-series on business ecosystems.Felix Oberholzer-Gee is the Andreas Andresen Professor of Business Administration at Harvard Business School. An award-winning instructor, his academic work has been published in the very best, peer-reviewed journals of his profession, and he currently teaches competitive strategy in executive education programs. His work is largely focused on helping businesses apply his framework of Value-Based Strategy, in which businesses learn to identify the biggest value drivers. Within ecosystem-based competition, he’s identified how to specifically leverage ecosystems in maximizing the value delivered to stakeholders.In this podcast, he shares: How Value-Based Strategy applies to ecosystems, and how to identify where to draw and give the most value within one Balancing the dynamics and relationships between your company and different players in your ecosystemHow to identify what complements are best for your businessMotivating partners in the ecosystem to make investments in complements that would deliver value to your customersWhat adjustments you need to make within your business model and culture to incorporate ecosystemsGrowing your bargaining power and maximizing the value you draw from an ecosystem as you put more value into it__________________________________________________________________________________________"When companies vertically integrate the most common reason for that they will say is, 'I get so much more control.' And then you ask people inside your organization, 'What's the hardest thing to do?' And they will tell you, 'Alignment is hard because I don't really have control over everyone.' Well, which is it? Do you have control or do you not have control?"-Felix Oberholzer-Gee__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Felix + The topic of today’s episode1:35—Could you describe the concept of your 'Value Stick' to us to get familiar?3:10—Why are ecosystems helpful in staying competitive?8:34—How the nature and inclusivity of an ecosystem largely depends on who started it, for what purpose, and the capacity to scale10:42—How do you balance how much you're depending on an ecosystem for complements with giving away customer relationship ownership?13:52—The two rules the relationship manager working in ecosystems must remember17:51—How do you manage a changing relationship (buy-out, M&A, etc.) and the effects of that on how much value is being put in vs. received in an ecosystem?21:51—When is the right time to seek vertical integration?23:59—How do you translate your idea of the value stick in a model like ecosystems?29:03—How does the strategy thinking need to change for a company that's starting to embrace the idea of ecosystems?33:22—What should you consider about switching costs in relation to ecosystems?35:20—What are some last closing thoughts you'd like to leave us with?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Faculty Page at HThank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Richard P. Rumelt is one of the world’s most influential thinkers on strategy and management. McKinsey Quarterly described him as “strategy’s strategist” and “a giant in the field of strategy.” He is the author of Good Strategy/Bad Strategy: The Difference and Why It Matters, reviewed by the Financial Times as “the most interesting business book of 2011” and by Strategy + Business as “the year’s best and most original addition to the strategy bookshelf.” Richard received his doctoral degree from Harvard Business School and is the Harry and Elise Kunin Chair Emeritus at the UCLA Anderson School of Management. His new book, The Crux, goes on sale May 3, 2022, from PublicAffairs. In this podcast, he shares: Why so many organizations practice “Bad Strategy” and how to spot it when you see it Why strategy is fundamentally about solving problems How the secret behind the strategies of SpaceX and other breakthrough companies rests on finding the “crux” of the problem and how to choose a crux that others are not paying attention to Why we see so much vertical integration today and when that will change The three skills of: figuring out what is critical, constraining what is critical vs. what is controllable, and focusing energy on that __________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Richard + The topic of today’s episode1:46—If you really know me you know that...2:20—What is your definition of strategy?6:38—What are some of the ideas or concepts you are most well-known for?9:17—How do you recognize bad strategy?10:39—Could you explain the concept of "crux"?14:50—How to narrow down on actual challenge being solved16:40—Do you think you've seen a rise in vertical integration, and what is your opinion on it?18:48—Where can people find you and connect with you?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Faculty Page: https://www.anderson.ucla.edu/faculty-and-research/strategy/faculty/rumeltNewest book: https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/titles/richard-p-rumelt/the-crux/9781541701243/Last book: http://goodbadstrategy.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rumelt-18520828/Thank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

*Note to listeners* This episode is part of a special sub-series on business ecosystems.Ben Gomes-Casseres has been studying ecosystems since before the term as we know it existed. He is an expert on business combinations, in particular alliance strategy and management, having researched this topic for 30 years. He has published five books and many articles and case studies on M&A, alliances, and joint ventures, and his views have appeared widely in the business press. Ben helps companies create value from external resources by improving the way they manage partnerships. He holds degrees from Harvard, Princeton, and Brandeis. A native of Curaçao, he speaks four languages, and his work can be found at www.remixstrategy.com. Drawing from his experience at the beginning of the development of business ecosystems while studying computer companies in the early 90s, Ben has followed the development of ecosystems from a research standpoint since its infancy. In this discussion, Ben shares the in-depth insights he has learned over his time as a cutting edge—and early—expert of ecosystem study. In this discussion, Ben shares his insights onIn this podcast, he shares: What he learned from the earliest industries that adopted ecosystems and ecosystem-based competition as a business modelThe background and development of the term “ecosystems” as we know it todayThe various types of ecosystems, and the different terms used to describe these groupsHis Remix Strategy he developed as a result of his long-term research, including the three laws of business combinationsHow to play fairly in an ecosystem, ensuring that you add to its value rather than take away from itA practical set of questions that will help you determine where you can draw value from joining an ecosystem, and in what ways__________________________________________________________________________________________"So, it has really been this interesting shift that kind of 2000, this chasm was crossed around opening up ecosystems to different kinds of partners as well, the opportunity to reach different kinds of customers in new ways through new channels."-Ben Gomes-Casseres__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Ben + The topic of today’s episode1:47—How did you fall into studying ecosystems before it was even a known area?7:26—How constellations (ecosystems) have evolved in the way they're perceived and defined over time9:10—Could you walk us through your model of the three laws of business combinations?12:07—The first law of business combinations13:10—The second law of business combinations15:41—The third law of business combinations18:41—What kind of changes does an organization need to make to be effective in ecosystem-based competition (mindset, capabilities, key success, factors, organizations, structure, incentives)?21:45—How do you decide what ecosystem to plug into if you're not yet in one?23:18—How does an ecosystem become more fragemented at the ecosystem or constellation level? What factors go into deciding is?26:08—How different ecosystems can be organized depending on their needs26:08Thank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast