Outthinkers

Richard P. Rumelt is one of the world’s most influential thinkers on strategy and management. McKinsey Quarterly described him as “strategy’s strategist” and “a giant in the field of strategy.” He is the author of Good Strategy/Bad Strategy: The Difference and Why It Matters, reviewed by the Financial Times as “the most interesting business book of 2011” and by Strategy + Business as “the year’s best and most original addition to the strategy bookshelf.” Richard received his doctoral degree from Harvard Business School and is the Harry and Elise Kunin Chair Emeritus at the UCLA Anderson School of Management. His new book, The Crux, goes on sale May 3, 2022, from PublicAffairs. In this podcast, he shares: Why so many organizations practice “Bad Strategy” and how to spot it when you see it Why strategy is fundamentally about solving problems How the secret behind the strategies of SpaceX and other breakthrough companies rests on finding the “crux” of the problem and how to choose a crux that others are not paying attention to Why we see so much vertical integration today and when that will change The three skills of: figuring out what is critical, constraining what is critical vs. what is controllable, and focusing energy on that __________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Richard + The topic of today’s episode1:46—If you really know me you know that...2:20—What is your definition of strategy?6:38—What are some of the ideas or concepts you are most well-known for?9:17—How do you recognize bad strategy?10:39—Could you explain the concept of "crux"?14:50—How to narrow down on actual challenge being solved16:40—Do you think you've seen a rise in vertical integration, and what is your opinion on it?18:48—Where can people find you and connect with you?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Faculty Page: https://www.anderson.ucla.edu/faculty-and-research/strategy/faculty/rumeltNewest book: https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/titles/richard-p-rumelt/the-crux/9781541701243/Last book: http://goodbadstrategy.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rumelt-18520828/Thank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

*Note to listeners* This episode is part of a special sub-series on business ecosystems.Ben Gomes-Casseres has been studying ecosystems since before the term as we know it existed. He is an expert on business combinations, in particular alliance strategy and management, having researched this topic for 30 years. He has published five books and many articles and case studies on M&A, alliances, and joint ventures, and his views have appeared widely in the business press. Ben helps companies create value from external resources by improving the way they manage partnerships. He holds degrees from Harvard, Princeton, and Brandeis. A native of Curaçao, he speaks four languages, and his work can be found at www.remixstrategy.com. Drawing from his experience at the beginning of the development of business ecosystems while studying computer companies in the early 90s, Ben has followed the development of ecosystems from a research standpoint since its infancy. In this discussion, Ben shares the in-depth insights he has learned over his time as a cutting edge—and early—expert of ecosystem study. In this discussion, Ben shares his insights onIn this podcast, he shares: What he learned from the earliest industries that adopted ecosystems and ecosystem-based competition as a business modelThe background and development of the term “ecosystems” as we know it todayThe various types of ecosystems, and the different terms used to describe these groupsHis Remix Strategy he developed as a result of his long-term research, including the three laws of business combinationsHow to play fairly in an ecosystem, ensuring that you add to its value rather than take away from itA practical set of questions that will help you determine where you can draw value from joining an ecosystem, and in what ways__________________________________________________________________________________________"So, it has really been this interesting shift that kind of 2000, this chasm was crossed around opening up ecosystems to different kinds of partners as well, the opportunity to reach different kinds of customers in new ways through new channels."-Ben Gomes-Casseres__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Ben + The topic of today’s episode1:47—How did you fall into studying ecosystems before it was even a known area?7:26—How constellations (ecosystems) have evolved in the way they're perceived and defined over time9:10—Could you walk us through your model of the three laws of business combinations?12:07—The first law of business combinations13:10—The second law of business combinations15:41—The third law of business combinations18:41—What kind of changes does an organization need to make to be effective in ecosystem-based competition (mindset, capabilities, key success, factors, organizations, structure, incentives)?21:45—How do you decide what ecosystem to plug into if you're not yet in one?23:18—How does an ecosystem become more fragemented at the ecosystem or constellation level? What factors go into deciding is?26:08—How different ecosystems can be organized depending on their needs26:08Thank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Amy Webb is a quantitative futurist and a bestselling, award-winning author. She is a professor of strategic foresight at the NYU Stern School of Business and the Founder of the Future Today Institute, a leading foresight and strategy firm that helps leaders and their organizations prepare for complex futures. Amy has advised CEOs and heads of strategy of some of the world’s largest companies, three-star generals and admirals and executive government leadership on strategy and technology. She was also a Delegate on the former U.S.- Russia Bilateral Presidential Commission, where she worked on the future of technology, media and international diplomacy. She is the author of several popular books, including The Big Nine: How the Tech Titans and Their Thinking Machines Could Warp Humanity, which was longlisted for the Financial Times & McKinsey Business Book of the Year award, shortlisted for the Thinkers50 Digital Thinking Award, and won the 2020 Gold Axiom Medal for the best book about business and technology. She also wrote The Signals Are Talking: Why Today’s Fringe Is Tomorrow’s Mainstream, which won the Thinkers50 Radar Award, was selected as one of Fast Company’s Best Books of 2016, Amazon’s best books 2016, and was the recipient of the 2017 Gold Axiom Medal for the best book about business and technology. Amy was named by Forbes as one of the five women changing the world, listed as the BBC’s 100 Women of 2020, and the Thinkers50 Radar list of the 30 management thinkers most likely to shape the future of how organizations are managed and led. In this podcast, she shares: Why we should be doing 'back-casting' rather than forecasting Why strategizing for the future is NOT about predicting it, but instead about shifting your mindset to be prepared for the future’s uncertainty Some practical advice about who should be doing the kind of future planning work that that is so critical for today for any organization that wants to remain relevant __________________________________________________________________________________________"If you're on a three-year strategic planning cycle, typically...you're marking milestones and KPIs...on that corporate strategy. The problem is that it doesn't account for uncertainty. This is where a lot of companies fall short, and they don't have the ability to recalibrate. So I do not use a line, I use a cone it's a different shape. So the intersecting vectors where that cone begins on the left that represents today. And the further out in time, you go, the wider, the angle becomes on the inside of that cone. And that represents uncertainty over time."-Amy Webb__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Amy + The topic of today’s episode2:10—What is your definition of strategy?3:32—A model for thinking about time and foresight6:05—What's a tip or go-strategy for getting people to appreciate the importance of thinking of long-term horizons?8:15—Could you explain the difference between predicting the future vs. being ready for many possible futures. Could you explain the difference?10:22—Using data and evidence to model out plausible next-order impacts12:24—The term and history of the futurist13:50—Could you describe your work iThank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Prof. Dr. Christian Busch is the bestselling author of The Serendipity Mindset: The Art & Science of Creating Good Luck. Arianna Huffington called it “a wise, exciting, and life-changing book” that Paul Polman says “provides excellent practical guidance for all.” Christian is an internationally-known expert in the areas of innovation, purpose-driven leadership, and serendipity. He is the director of the CGA Global Economy Program at NYU, and also teaches at the London School of Economics. He is a cofounder of Leaders on Purpose and the Sandbox Network, and a former director of LSE's Innovation Lab. His work has been featured by outlets such as the Strategic Management Journal,Harvard Business Review, Forbes, The Guardian, Washington Post, and the BBC. He is member of the World Economic Forum's (WEF) Expert Forum, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and on the Thinkers50 Radar list of the 30 thinkers "most likely to shape the future. In this podcast, he shares: His concept that luck (or serendipity) is not random, but can actually be cultivated Some of the specific characteristics and practices of organizations that are able to turn unexpected events, trends, market developments into opportunity Some really practical ways you can start generating more luck, for yourself, your life, and your organization __________________________________________________________________________________________"That...idea that we have to stick to the plan is something that...portrays authority, portrays the idea that we are reliable and dependable, but actually a lot of times it does the opposite in the end because we now have an incentive to hide numbers, to somehow try to figure out how we can tweak the budgets to still look good. And so actually from a performer perspective, we actually a lot of times do the opposite."-Christian Busch__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Christian+ The topic of today’s episode2:23—What is your definition of strategy?4:23—How did you get into the idea of serendipity?5:28—How can serendipity be applied to business?7:10—What are the barriers to seeing these opportunities that serendipity affords?10:52—What are other leverage points to embed serendipity into a company's culture?13:05—How companies can encourage or kill serendipity21:30—What is something people get wrong? 17:40—Could you explain your concept of casting hooks?19:04—How can people connect with you?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Company Page: https://theserendipitymindset.com/Twitter: https://twitter.com/chrisserendipLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/today/author/christianwbuschThank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

*Note to listeners* This episode is part of a special sub-series on business ecosystems.Tiffani Bova is the chief growth evangelist at Salesforce and the author of the Wall Street Journal bestselling book GROWTH IQ: Get Smarter About the Choices that Will Make or Break Your Business. Tiffani has been named to the latest Thinkers50’s list of the world’s top management thinkers and is a welcomed guest on Bloomberg, BNN, Cheddar, MSNBC, and Yahoo Finance, among others. She also contributes her thinking to publications including Harvard Business Review, Forbes, Entrepreneur, Quora, Thrive, among others. She is a change-maker who’s thought-provoking and forward-thinking insights have made her a frequent guest on a variety of industry-leading podcasts and live broadcasts. Tiffani Bova began her career as a sales, marketing and customer service executive for startups and Fortune 500 companies where she was recognized as being one of the first to develop a robust go-to-market model for cloud-based solutions and indirect channel strategies. This experience brought her to Salesforce where she became global growth evangelist, driving customer success through a vast network of customer and partner ecosystems. She has consistently been a leader in witnessing, understanding and helping shape the relationship with ecosystems across various organizations. In this discussion, Tiffani shares her insights on:In this podcast, she shares: What defines an ecosystem, and why it’s more common than you may thinkThe history of ecosystems, as she witnessed them on the frontlines, and how the internet and digital technology have accelerated their prevalenceA practical set of steps and questions to decide if an ecosystem is right for your company, where to draw value from it, and deciding how it will help close your gapsThe importance of putting the customer first when making the decision to join an ecosystem The different types of relationships you can develop with partners in an ecosystemHow ecosystems can become a significant part of your profitability—and why this is critical to your success__________________________________________________________________________________________"So, it has really been this interesting shift that kind of 2000, this chasm was crossed around opening up ecosystems to different kinds of partners as well, the opportunity to reach different kinds of customers in new ways through new channels."-Tiffani Bova__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Tiffani + The topic of today’s episode1:58—What are your thoughts on the future of ecosystem-based competition?5:28—How partnerships in ecosystems are different than traditional business partnerships7:03—How the internet has changed ecosystems by connecting different players to customers8:17—Are there more ecosystem-based companies now?9:57—What are sources of competitive advantage of key success factors that companies need to add to their strategic toolkit in light of ecosystems becoming more prevalent? 15:54—What can you tell us about ecosystem players that just join an ecosystem, vs. have to do a lot of the heavy lifting to build it?21:29—What are Thank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Whitney Johnson is the CEO of human capital consultancy WLJ Advisors, an Inc. 5000 2020 fastest-growing private company in America. She is an expert at helping high-growth organizations develop high-growth individuals, and recognized as one of the 50 leading business thinkers in the world (#14) as named by Thinkers50. Having worked at Fortune 100 companies, been an award-winning equity analyst on Wall Street, invested with Harvard’s Clayton Christensen, and coached alongside the renowned Marshall Goldsmith, Whitney understands how companies work, how investors think, and how the best coaches coach–––all of which she brings to her work in coaching CEOs and CSuite executives. Whitney works with high growth venture-backed start-ups and Fortune 100 companies across a variety of sectors including consumer goods, technology, higher education and financial services. In 2017, she was selected from more than 16,000 candidates as a “Top 15 Coach” by Dr. Marshall Goldsmith. She is an award-winning author, world-class keynote speaker, and frequent lecturer for Harvard Business School's Corporate Learning. She is a popular contributor to the Harvard Business Review, has 1.8 million followers on LinkedIn, where she was selected as a Top Voice in 2018, and her course on Fundamentals of Entrepreneurship has been viewed more than 1 million times. Whitney joined us last year in our podcast as a guest speaker and she introduced us to how the S Curve or adoption curve can be applied to yourself and your career. But in her books so far, the S Curve was sort of a “supporting character.” Now, in her new book, Smart Growth, she puts the S Curve front and center and lays out with remarkable precision and clarity the milestones along that S Curve. In this podcast, she shares: Points out that without landmarks, people literally walk around in circles Provides a map of six landmarks you can use to help you avoid walking around in circles in your career How to know if you have plateaued in your career or your business, and whether it's time to get uncomfortable or find a new adventure How to then know if you are the right next s-curve __________________________________________________________________________________________"And when you know where you are, you increase your capacity to grow and the more you grow, the more you can grow. And so, you can use this for yourself, if you're willing to grow yourself, then you're going to be able to grow your people. And if you can grow your people, then you can grow your organization"-Whitney Johnson__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Whitney + The topic of today’s episode3:00—Why did you decide to write your third and newest book?3:56—Could you unpack the metaphor from your book?8:22—How can you know if you've plateaued, whether in your life or career?10:45—How do you know if the next S Curve you're stepping on to is the right path?12:28—Digging deeper into the "Explorer" phase of the S Curve16:00—The sweet spot of the S Curve18:05—How can you know when you've reached the mastery phase vs. you're actually just in the beginning phase?20:10—Are there any last thoughts you'd like to share?20:48—HowThank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Verne Harnish is founder of the world-renowned Entrepreneurs’ Organization (EO), with over 16,000 members worldwide, and chaired for fifteen years EO’s premiere CEO program held at MIT, a program in which he still teaches today. Founder and CEO of Scaling Up, a global executive education and coaching company with over 200 partners on six continents, Verne has spent the past four decades helping companies scale up. He’s the author of the bestseller Mastering the Rockefeller Habits, authored The Greatest Business Decisions of All Times for which Jim Collins wrote the foreword; and wrote Scaling Up (Rockefeller Habits 2.0) which has been translated into 22 languages and has won eight major international book awards including the prestigious International Book Award for Best General Business book. His latest book, Scaling Up Compensation, rocketed to the #1 HR book on Amazon. Verne also chairs the annual ScaleUp Summits and serves on several boards including vice chair of The Riordan Clinic; co-founder and chair of Geoversity; and board member of the social venture Million Dollar Women, and is a private investor in many scaleups.In this podcast, he shares: Several practical proven tips for designing your growth strategy How strategy has evolved over the last few decades and How to identify the right customer niche for you The key lesson for keeping competitors at bay Why you shouldn’t be designing strategy at the office, and where you should do it instead __________________________________________________________________________________________"We have the framework: right people doing the right things right. So, it’s figuring out the right things for people to do, and that those right things are different than what everyone else in your industry is doing. That is the essence of strategy: doing it different. "-Verne Harnish__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Verne + The topic of today’s episode2:23—What is your definition of strategy?4:02—What do you say to CEOs about going after a big market share vs. a niche market?5:23—How can a company figure out what their niche is?7:23—Examples of companies that have dominated their niche8:22—How to "blackmail" a market11:00—How have you seen the field of strategy evolve in the last few decades?12:03—The importance of organizing a council13:48—Why all great thinkers have a physical space for creative thinking15:55—What is an important framework you'd highly recommend?19:04—How can people connect with you?16:55—How can people connect with you?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Company Page: https://scalingup.com/verne-harnish/Twitter: https://twitter.com/agilescaleupLinkedIn: httpThank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Keith Ferrazzi is a bestselling author, award-winning speaker, investor, philanthropist, and executive team coach who helps teams transform enterprises. As Founder and Chairman of Ferrazzi Greenlight and its applied research institute, he coaches executive teams in top organizations to achieve transformative outcomes by harnessing Radical Adaptability. He is recognized as one of the world’s most sought-after executive team coaches. Keith is the #1 New York Times bestselling author of Who’s Got Your Back, Never Eat Alone, Leading Without Authority, and Competing in a New Work World. He formerly served as CMO and Head of Sales at Deloitte and Starwood Hotels. Fast Company Leadership Hall of Fame and Toastmaster’s 2018 Golden Gavel Award Winner, Keith’s is one of the most in-demand keynote speakers. In this podcast, he shares: Specific ways in which the COVID crisis is transforming the nature of work Why would should just be thinking of “remote” work but rather the much bigger opportunity represented by “asynchronous work” Ideas for leveraging the crowd in your company to design better strategies A simple, 5-minute exercise you can put in place to help ensure you don’t get surprised by the next unexpected disruption __________________________________________________________________________________________"People think to think that reason to be in business is to make a profit. No, profit is the applause you get for creating a motivating environment for your people so they take good care of your customers."-Keith Ferrazzi __________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Keith + The topic of today’s episode2:05—If you really know me, you know that....3:24—Having the courage to lean into "I don't know," and the value of crowdsourcing insights6:12—What's your definition of strategy?7:15—How the roles of (Chief Marketing Officer) CMOs and (Chief Strategy Officers) CSOs have changed over time8:27—In light of the pandemic, companies have had to adapt. What do you think of adapting "back"?9:39—5-Min Exercise: "The foresight Meeting"13:21—Moving from synchronous to asynchronous teamwork14:22—What are tools that work well for asynchronous collaboration?15:58—Resilience: Curating your team's energy to redesign your workforce17:29—Last thoughts and how to connect with Keith15:48—What are you working on now?16:55—How can people connect with you?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Personal Page: https://www.keithferrazzi.com/Newest publication: https://www.goforwardtowork.com/bookTwitter: https://twitter.com/ferrazziLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithfThank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Ken Blanchard is one of the world’s most influential leadership experts. A prominent, sought-after author, speaker, and business consultant, Ken is respected for his lifetime of groundbreaking research and thought leadership that has influenced the day-to-day management and leadership of people and companies throughout the world. In 2005, he was inducted into Amazon’s Hall of Fame as one of the top 25 best­selling authors of all time. He is the co-author of more than sixty-five books, including the iconic The One Minute Manager, with combined sales of over 23 million copies in forty-seven languages. He and Randy Conley are also co-authors of Simple Truths of Leadership. He is co-founder of The Ken Blanchard Companies, a leading international training and consulting firm. In this podcast, he shares: Why you want to be an servant leader and how to know you actually are The first step to take when seeking to transform your culture Why you should be focused on your employees before your customers __________________________________________________________________________________________"People think to think that reason to be in business is to make a profit. No, profit is the applause you get for creating a motivating environment for your people so they take good care of your customers."-Ken Blanchard__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Ken + The topic of today’s episode1:58—If you really know me, you know that....2:28—What is your definition of strategy?4:20—How has your business model changed over time?5:00—Could you tell us about servant leadership?7:15—How can a leader know that they're not using their title and position as a servant leader?8:45—Do you have any advice for someone who doesn't have a ton of influence, but is a leader?10:20—Are there any highlights about trust you could point us to from your book?11:28—Do you have any frameworks or tips you like to point to in transforming company culture?12:31—What's something that you've changed your mind about?14:01—What's something you wish you had learned earlier?15:48—What are you working on now?16:55—How can people connect with you?__________________________________________________________________________________________Additional Resources: Personal Page: https://www.kenblanchard.com/Twitter: https://twitter.com/kenblanchardLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kenblanchard1Thank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Gary Hamel is one of the world’s most influential and iconoclastic business thinkers. He has worked with leading companies across the globe and is a dynamic and sought-after management speaker. Hamel has been on the faculty of the London Business School for more than 30 years and is the director of the Management Lab. Gary has written 20 articles for the Harvard Business Review and is the most reprinted author in the Review’s history. His landmark books have been translated into more than 25 languages. His most recent bestsellers are Humanocracy and The Future of Management. In these volumes, Hamel presents an impassioned plea for reinventing management and lays out a practical blueprint for building organizations that are “fit for the future.” Fortune magazine describes Hamel as “the world’s leading expert on business strategy,” and the Financial Times calls him a “management innovator without peer.” Hamel has been ranked by The Wall Street Journal as the world’s most influential business thinker and is a fellow of the Strategic Management Society and of the World Economic Forum. In his work, Gary has led transformational efforts in some of the world’s most notable companies and has helped to create billions of dollars in shareholder value. He is one of the world’s most sought-after management speakers on the topics of strategy, leadership, innovation and change. In this podcast, he shares: What “strategic intent” is and why your strategy setting should begin with it How to address "leadership myopia" when you recognize it, and to make sure you don't develop itWhat his research shows are the four sources of breakthrough strategic ideas The source of the differentiating choices that will ultimately determine your competitive advantage__________________________________________________________________________________________"You start with an aspiration and then you work backward from that. You know, innovation is born in the gap between aspiration high and resources."-Gary Hamel__________________________________________________________________________________________Episode Timeline:00:00—Introducing Gary + The topic of today’s episode2:40—If you really know me, you know that....3:10—What is your definition of strategy?4:49—What would you say you are most known for?6:31—Second well-known article, The Core Competence of the Corporation8:40—The concept of "Strategies Revolution," looking at strategy as an innovation problem, and letting go of strategic planning10:30—How do you know if you're spending enough time on core initiatives vs. new initiatives?14:25—How to address "leadership myopia" when you recognize it19:12—Should all strategists start with strategic intent, or where if not?20:58—Where do new game-changing strategies come from?24:37—If you want to be the next "unicorn" creating a process for developing a portfolio of strategic options is essential 27:24—Learning to recognize patterns when developing strategic options29:58—The benefit of collaboration in making strategic decisions32:38—How can people connect and engage with you, and whaThank you to our guests, thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast