Sustain

Brian Douglas, founder and CEO of Open Sauced, explores the nuances of sustaining open-source projects. He shares insights from his tenure at GitHub and Netlify while discussing the importance of effective metrics, like the 'contributor absence factor.' Brian also delves into the challenges of funding and supporting smaller projects amidst enterprise needs. With a focus on community engagement and mentorship, he emphasizes how diverse perspectives can drive innovation and ensure the longevity of open-source ecosystems.

Jan Lehnardt and Alba Herrerías Ramírez of Neighbourhood.ie share their journey in the open source landscape. They discuss the rise and challenges of the Hoodie project, alongside the successes of CouchDB and PouchDB. The duo highlights their collaboration with the Sovereign Tech Fund, emphasizing the need for resilience in open source projects. Ethical considerations in consultancy and the importance of community support in tech are also explored, showcasing their commitment to making a sustainable impact.

Guests Elizabeth Barron | Luis Cañas-Diaz | Dawn Foster Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by three guests, Dawn Foster, Elizabeth Barron, and Luis Cañas Diaz, to discuss the CHAOSS Project's recent development of Practitioner Guides. The show delves into the purpose of these guides, which are designed to help open source projects interpret and utilize metrics to improve community health and sustainability. The guests explain the significance of metrics in open source projects, the challenges of defining and making them accessible, and how the guides can benefit different types of projects, from large corporations to individual developers. Topics covered include the background and format of the guides, specifics on the metrics discussed, and the practical applications and improvements these guides aim to facilitate. Go ahead and download this episode now! [00:01:53] Dawn fills us in on the connections between the guests and their collective work on the CHAOSS Practitioner Guides. [00:02:33] The conversation shifts to the specifics of the CHAOSS Project, highlighting the international community involvement and various working groups focusing on different aspects of open source projects like corporate OSPOs, university OSPOs, and diversity and equity initiatives. [00:04:21] Luis describes the origin and work of Bitergia and its collaboration with CHAOSS Project, particularly in developing tools like Grimoire Lab. [00:06:07] Richard turns the discussion to the CHAOSS Project’s Practitioner Guides, where Dawn discusses the purpose of the introduction guide in the series, designed to help users understand and apply metrics effectively across various open source contexts. [00:09:48] There’s a discussion on the format of the guides, emphasizing their accessibility, ethical considerations in data handling, and how they’re designed to be adaptable to different needs. Luis highlights the need for CHAOSS and Bitergia projects to provide actionable insights rather than just more metrics. [00:12:18] Elizabeth and Dawn explain the broader goal of the guides to not only provide metrics but also helps users interpret and apply these to drive tangible improvements in open source projects. [00:13:44] We learn about the target audience for the guides and how they cater to both large organizational structures (OSPOs) and individual project maintainers. [00:15:04] Dawn explains what the Contributor Sustainability Guide focuses on, emphasizing strategies for sustainable contribution and community involvement in open source projects. [00:16:42] The discussion centers on renaming the “bus factor” metric to “contributor absence factor” to avoid the negative connotations of the original term, Luis emphasizes the relevance of metrics, particularly in small projects, and Dawn explains that the guides focus on a few key metrics per guide, chosen for their ease of understanding and minimal requirement for data collection. [00:20:47] Richard inquires about the effectiveness of metrics in identifying if a project is on the wrong path, prompting a discussion on the goals of a project and how metrics align with those metrics. Elizabeth and Dawn stress the importance of aligning metrics with project goals and involving project contributors in discussions about what metrics are most relevant. [00:23:26] The discussion continues with considerations on how metrics should supplement, not replace, expert judgement and involvement in project management. Elizabeth and Richard discuss the potential for projects to start with community growth in mind and the challenges in measuring and guiding such growth. [00:27:07] The conversation switches to the remaining guides not yet covered, with Richard asking about the guides on Responsiveness and Organizational Participation. Dawn explains the Responsiveness guide, with its focus on key metrics like time to first response, time to close, and change request closure ratio. Elizabeth and Luis share why this is one of their favorite guides. [00:32:12] We hear about the broader applicability of the guides. Richard questions if the guides are only for corporate-driven projects or if they can serve more relaxed open source environments. Dawn and Luis emphasize that the guides are valuable for a variety of stakeholders, including foundations and volunteers. [00:33:49] Find out where you can look at the Practitioner Guides online. Quotes [00:06:34] “At the CHAOSS Project we have a whole bunch of metrics, and we have tools or software that help you gather those metrics.” [00:06:56] “There is no one-size-fits-all approach to interpreting metrics.” [00:14:00] “A lot of these guides were designed with OSPOs in mind. They’re all useful to anyone who’s managing a project.” [00:18:45] “For metrics, the bigger the project, the more useful they are.” Spotlight [00:34:43] Richard’s spotlight is Johnny Wilson, an eBird reviewer. [00:35:23] Elizabeth’s spotlight is a project called Clocker. [00:36:19] Dawn’s spotlight is Nadia Eghbal’s book, _Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software, _and her paper, “Roads and Bridges: The Unseen Labor Behind Our Digital Infrastructure.” [00:37:18] Luis’s spotlight is Moodle, the OSS learning platform. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Mastodon Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Elizabeth Barron Website Elizabeth Barron LinkedIn Luis Cañas-Diaz Website Luis Cañas-Diaz LinkedIn Dawn Foster Website Dawn Foster LinkedIn CHAOSS CHAOSS slack CHAOSS Practitioner Guides Johnny Wilson-Ventures Birding Tours Clocker Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software by Nadia Eghbal “Roads and Bridges: The Unseen Labor Behind Our Digital Infrastructure” by Nadia Eghbal Nadia Asparouhova (Eghbal) Website Moodle Sustain Podcast featuring Nadia Eghbal Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guests: Dawn Foster, Elizabeth Barron, and Luis Cañas Diaz.Support Sustain

Guest Ben Cotton Panelist Leslie Hawthorne Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Leslie Hawthorn is joined by guest, Ben Cotton, the Open Source Community Lead at Kusari and former Fedora Program Manager. Ben discusses his career path, the importance of intentional program management in open source projects, and shares insights from his book, 'Program Management for Open Source Projects.' The conversation covers the evolution of engagement in open source communities, the impact of professionalization, and the challenges posed by AI in maintaining open source inclusivity. They also touch on the current trends of corporate involvement in open source. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:38] Ben mentions that he wrote his book to see his name on a cover but also explains the practical reasons for writing it, aiming to assist with the program management of open source projects. [00:04:42] Leslie mentions Karl Fogel’s book and discusses how engagement with open source often starts with a technical interest but deepens due to human interactions within the community. [00:05:28] Ben shares his background in synpotic meteorology and how an unexpected opportunity led him to maintain software for weather data visualization, which paved his way into system administration and eventually open source. [00:10:43] Leslie and Ben discuss the evolution of participation in open source projects, noting changes in the community’s structure, barriers to entry for newcomers, and the importance of fostering a respectful and inclusive environment for all contributors. [00:13:43] Leslie discusses the trend towards older participants in open source projects and attributes it to the professionalization of these projects and she expresses concerns about how the focus on AI development might limit open engagement in open source projects. [00:16:46] Ben remarks on the ease of using modern technology like Linux systems, contrasting it with earlier experiences that required more user involvement and customization. Leslie shares the potential benefits of AI, envisioning a future where technology adapts to individual needs, like assisting her visually impaired daughter. [00:23:07] Ben reflects on generational differences in technology use and stresses the importance of understanding the impact of our technological choices on future generations, especially concerning environmental sustainability. [00:27:24] Leslie brings up a question from Richard who was interested in hearing Ben’s view on program management in open source projects, and how it differs from the role of a developer who manages projects. Ben explains that roles in open source differ from corporate roles as individuals often wear multiple hats, switching between developer, designer, and documenter tasks. [00:30:15] Leslie reflects on the challenges of task switching and the potential for burnout among open source maintainers, particularly those without corporate support. Ben suggests that open source maintainers allow newcomers to handle low-risk tasks to prevent burnout and maintain engagement. [00:34:21] Leslie shares the grief she hears from friends about the typical career progression for developers into management roles, which may not align with their passions, emphasizing the importance of finding fulfillment in one's tasks. [00:35:24] Ben discusses the challenging corporate attitudes towards open source as economic conditions shift. Leslie expresses dissatisfaction with how corporations have historically invested in open source communities, suggesting that even when funding was plentiful, investment was inadequate. Spotlight [00:40:56] Ben’s spotlight is WeeWX. [00:42:44] Leslie’s spotlight is the great city of Berlin, Germany. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org (email) richard@theuserismymom.com (email) SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Leslie Hawthorn X/Twitter Leslie Hawthorn LinkedIn Ben Cotton Mastodon Ben Cotton Website Ben Cotton LinkedIn Kusari Program Management for Open Source Projects by Ben Cotton Producing Open Source Software by Karl Fogel WeeWX Berlin Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Ben Cotton.Support Sustain

Tracy Hinds and Ashley Williams discuss open source funding challenges, misaligned incentives, regulatory changes, and the need for more equitable systems in the industry. They highlight the economic impact of sustaining efforts, the roles of open source foundations, and their involvement in a working group focused on European CRA legislation to bridge gaps between maintainers and policymakers.

Guest Yo Yehudi Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by Yo Yehudi, Executive Director of Open Life Science (OLS), who discusses the importance of sustaining open source and scientific research. They cover topics such as the transition of OLS from a life sciences focus to all sciences, the importance of sharing scientific work openly, and strategies for building inclusive and sustainable communities within open source projects. Yo also touches on the challenges of funding and supporting volunteer-driven initiatives, their approach to managing volunteer contributions, and insights from their doctoral research on open source project sustainability. Hit download now to hear more! [00:02:19] Yo describes OLS as an organization helping scientists to share their work globally, addressing the common issue of data loss when scientists leave academia without sharing their work. [00:02:56] The conversation explores how OLS has expanded to include all sciences, not just life sciences, and even fields outside of traditional scientific disciplines. [00:03:46] Yo critiques the traditional methods of scientific communication, highlighting the importance of sharing code and computational methods alongside traditional manuscripts. [00:05:55] Richard and Yo discuss the inclusive definition of a scientist, emphasizing curiosity and rigor over formal educational credentials. [00:07:28] There’s a discussion on OLS’s operational scope and strategic focus to prevent “scope creep,” emphasizing training, mentoring, and incubation projects. [00:09:57] Yo details the team size and funding strategy of OLS, mentioning how they transitioned from a volunteer-based to a funded organization. [00:00:00] Richard discusses the challenge of differentiating OLS for funding in a competitive space filled with similar organizations. Yo explains that OLS views similar organizations not as competitors but as potential collaborators, striving to differentiate by working together and clearly defining each other’s unique roles. [00:16:20] There’s a discussion on volunteer contributions and avoiding exploitation. [00:17:49] Richard and Yo discuss the challenges of altering the mindset around volunteer compensation and ensuring that project contributions are recognized and supported financially. Yo explains how OLS had adapted its approach to offering support, ensuring it meets diverse needs efficiently. [00:20:44] The conversation shifts to how OLS assists open source practitioners in publishing their work and code effectively, emphasizing the importance of flexibility and thoughtful sharing practices. [00:22:34] Yo highlights changes in OLS’s teachings, particularly focusing on equity and the experience of marginalized individuals in open source communities and talks about open access publishing. [00:25:13] Yo acknowledges that using platforms like GitHub and arXiv could be viable options for sharing scientific work, providing it’s done responsibly, respecting privacy, and not including sensitive data. [00:26:12] Richard draws a parallel between the challenges faced by scientists needing traditional publication credentials and open source contributors needing recognition for their contributions outside mainstream channels. Yo shares their personal stance on working within the capitalist system to bring about change. [00:28:45] Yo details their doctoral study focused on the longevity of open source projects, noting their findings that the metrics used did not predict project sustainability as expected. [00:32:23] Yo announces their recent successful defense of their doctoral thesis, emphasizing the importance of practical and community-focused approaches in open source projects. [00:33:36] Find out where you can learn more about Yo and their work online. Quotes [00:04:10] “Science is everything else we see.” [00:04:20] “Science uses a lot of code to create outputs, to visualize the work they’re doing, to understand things….code and computations come into science in so many different ways.” [00:18:53] “We had a very low uptake, which was surprising, and then we changed the way we asked people to ask for money, and we had more [people ask for funds].” [00:27:50] “The fact that open source really was founded pragmatically as a way to exploit free labor makes me uncomfortable.” [00:33:14] “Make sure you have functional friendly humans.” Spotlight [00:34:22] Richard’s spotlight is the book, _Joseph Banks: A Life _by Patrick O’Brian. [00:35:12] Yo’s spotlight is InterMine. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Mastodon Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Yo Yehudi Website Yo Yehudi LinkedIn Open Life Science (OLS) Sustain Podcast with host Abigail Cabunoc Mayes Mozilla Joseph Banks: A life by Patrick O’Brian InterMine Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Yo Yehudi.Support Sustain

Deb Goodkin, Executive Director of the FreeBSD Foundation, discusses the history and distinct characteristics of FreeBSD as an independent operating system. Topics include the BSD license, the role of the FreeBSD Foundation in supporting the community, estimating FreeBSD users, and comparisons with other foundations. They also touch on FreeBSD Day celebrations, diversity efforts, and the significance of documentation in the FreeBSD community.

Guest Julia Evans Panelists Richard Littauer | Amanda Casari Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer and co-host Amanda Casari talk to Julia Evans, a zine artist and programmer from Montreal. The discussion delves into Julia's journey in creating educational zines about technical topics like strace, Bash, and Git. Julia shares insights into her unique approach to making complex tools more accessible, how she uses feedback and beta readers to refine her work, and the importance of writing about stable technologies. The episode also touches on Julia's balance between art and sustainability, her collaborative work with her team, and highlights the significance of community-driven knowledge sharing. Press download to hear much more! [00:01:44] Julia explains her approach to creating zines, starting with the desire to simplify the usage of complex tools like strace. [00:03:14] Julia discusses her background as a programmer and the thematic focus of her zines, including making technical topics like Bash scripting more approachable. [00:04:54] Amanda praises Julia’s method of demystifying technical concepts through zines. Julia shares the challenges of creating zines on complex topics like Git, discussing how user feedback helps refine content. [00:07:14] Julia details the iterative process of creating zines, including using beta readers and feedback tools to enhance the clarity and usefulness of her guides. [00:11:50] The discussion shifts to how Julia selects topics for her zines, focusing on technologies with strong backward compatibility guarantees, ensuring that the content remains relevant and accurate over time. [00:15:59] Richard questions Julia about her preference for creating zines over other formats like video tutorials or classes, despite the potential reach and educational impact of those mediums. She explains her preference for zines, highlighting her affinity for print and writing, and he challenge with video formats. [00:19:13] Julia discusses her transformative experience at the Recurse Center, which greatly enhanced her understanding of computer systems, inspiring her to help others feel like “wizards” who fully grasp their tools. [00:21:39] Julia mentions co-founding “bang bang con,” a conference focused on short, insightful talks about programming, and confirms the availability of these talks online. [00:22:46] Richard asks Julia about “weird stuff” she likes to do with computers. She describes creating a DNS server that open shares queries, reflecting her passion for making the invisible aspects of computing visible. [00:24:43] Julia reveals how she funds her zine-making and educational endeavors through sales, which has allowed her to focus full-time on this work and even hire help to manage operations, enhancing sustainability and enjoyment of her work. [00:26:05] Julia reflects on the unpredictability of her success, expressing hesitation to offer advice on replicating her business model due to its unconventional nature. [00:27:47] Julia shares her approach to team building and sustainability, focusing on treating and paying her collaborators well to endure ongoing successful partnerships. [00:28:44] Find out where you can purchase Julia’s zines and find her online. Quotes [00:02:19] “I would have all these questions, what are people using this tool for?” [00:02:45] “I wanted to show people that this is not that big of a deal.” [00:06:26] “This is what I wish someone told me when I started using this tool.” [00:17:08] “I don’t usually want to learn a book’s worth of information about a topic. I’m a generalist.” [00:17:40] “My dream when learning about something is I just want to talk to someone who’s really, really smart for two hours and they’ll tell me everything I need to know.” [00:21:11] “You can do weird stuff!” [00:24:07] “I just thought it would be cool to make it, so I did.” [00:26:34] “Once I saw that I was working, I started to ask, is it sustainable? What do I need to learn about marketing to make it a sustainable business?” [00:28:29] “I try to be the last client to get fired. That’s my dream.” Spotlight [00:29:43] Amanda’s spotlight is she finally got to attend csv,conf,v8. [00:30:40] Richard’s spotlight is Rafik Draoui. [00:31:26] Julia’s spotlight is Atuin, a really nice way to search your shell history. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Twitter SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Mastodon Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Amanda Casari X/Twitter Julia Evans Blog Julia Evans Mastodon Julia Evans X/Twitter Julia Evans GitHub strace Write Useful Books by Rob Fitzpatrick Space Jam Recurse Center Sustain Podcast-Episode 146: Anjana Vakil on the Recurse Center, Outreachy, and Learning to Code !!Con 2024 (bang bang con) Gazouilli by Rafik Draoui Wizard Zines Wizard Zine on strace New zine: How Git Works! by Julia Evans Mess with dns Csv,conf,v8 Rafik Draoui GitHub Atuin Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Julia Evans.Support Sustain

Guest Max Jones Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this first ever cross-over episode of Sustain and Open Source for Climate, host Richard welcomes guest Max Jones, a data scientist and open source software developer who works at Carbon Plan. Max discusses the importance of open source in bringing about effective climate action, the role of Carbon Plan in building accessible data products and tools, and how being a nonprofit is advantageous for open source development. The conversation also touches on funding models for open source projects in nonprofits, including support from individual donors, grants, and collaboration with governmental and private entities like NASA and Microsoft. Additionally, Max shares insights into the development of tools for better visualization of climate data, the impact of open source on climate action, and the challenges of ensuring software and data accessibility and reproducibility. Press download now to hear more! [00:02:50] Richard outlines Max’s background in open source software development focused on climate action, including his leadership role at Carbon Plan. [00:03:31] Max discusses the mission of Carbon Plan, emphasizing the importance of transparency and accessibility in climate solutions. [00:04:23] Max describes his role in leading open source initiatives at Carbon Plan. [00:03:23] The conversation shifts to the practical aspects of running a non-profit focused on open source projects, including funding mechanisms such as grants from NASA. [00:06:58] Max explains one of their projects that involve tools for visualizing large-scale climate data to assist cities in planning and decision-making. He mentions how these tools are designed to be accessible to both scientists and the general public. [00:08:13] There’s a discussion about community engagement with their tools, noting that while many people reach out with questions or feature requests, there have been few contributions in terms of pull requests. [00:08:53] Max reflects on a collaboration with the Washington Post using their tools to inform public understanding of climate projections. [00:10:37] Max discusses the broader use of the tools by various agencies and the importance of transparency for reproducibility in research. [00:11:24] Max emphasizes the importance of reproducibility in open source projects across academia, industry, and the non-profit sector, and he acknowledges the challenges in ensuring that external users can engage with and reproduce their computational workflows. [00:12:56] The conversation shares insights into building a community around open source projects, particularly through involvement with the Pangeo project, which supports reproducibility and scalability in earth science workflows. [00:14:08] Max talks about the importance of finding common needs across different fields to promote broader collaboration and integration and mentions the Zarr project. [00:15:51] We hear about the size of the team at Carbon Plan which includes various roles. [00:16:28] Richard inquires about the funding landscape for open source projects at Carbon Plan. Max mentions the initial funding received through collaborations with NASA and Microsoft. He emphasizes the importance of ongoing government and agency support for both new tools and the maintenance of existing software. [00:17:51] Max talks about contributing back to open source communities, highlighting the practice of reporting bugs and engaging with upstream dependencies to improve tools. [00:18:38] The necessity of open source for transparency in climate solutions is discussed, contrasting with closed source companies that sell proprietary products to governments. Max argues for the importance of open source in ensuring accountability and better outcomes in climate solutions. [00:20:07] Max discusses the broader aspects of open resources, such as leveraging open standards, data, and hardware. He mentions collaborating with other organizations to tackle scalable computing challenges. [00:21:18] The conversation shifts to the environmental impact of computational work, with Max acknowledging the need for more efficient workflows and the broader implications of their organization’s focus, which includes understanding and adapting to climate change impacts. [00:24:15] Richard and Max discuss the challenges of making data sets public in a market-driven environment. Max emphasizes the role of nonprofits in pushing for greater transparency and the potential impact of their work on broader technological practices. [00:26:09] Finally, Max highlights a new project called OffsetsDB, and tell us where you can follow him and his work online. Quotes [00:03:44] “We believe that it’s necessary to have transparency and accessibility in our research, data, and tools in order to accomplish the mission.” [00:06:17] “I don’t think we can have great climate solutions unless they’re open and accessible, especially to the communities that are most impacted by these problems.” [00:11:47] “I would love to see more emphasis on reproducibility outside of academia as we push towards a more transparent model.” Spotlight [00:27:42] Richard’s spotlight is an article he read and liked, “The Brazilian Special-Forces Unit Fighting to Save The Amazon.” [00:28:07] Max’s spotlight is an open access perspectives article called, “The Origins of the Generic Mapping Tools: From Table Tennis to Geoscience.” Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS LinkedIn Sustain OSS BlueSky SustainOSS Mastodon podcast@sustainoss.org Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Max Jones GitHub Carbon Plan GitHub Carbon Plan Pangeo Zarr OffsetsDB “The Brazilian Special-Forces Unit Fighting To Save The Amazon” (The New Yorker) “The Origins of the Generic Mapping Tools: From Table Tennis to Geoscience” by Paul Wessel Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Max Jones.Support Sustain

Guests Eva Maxfield Brown | Boris Veytsman Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer engages with guests Eva Maxfield Brown and Boris Veytsman to explore their co-authored paper, "Biomedical Open Source Software: Crucial Packages and Hidden Heroes." The paper focuses on identifying crucial but often overlooked software dependencies in biomedical research. The discussions delve into how the study used data from two million papers to map these dependencies, revealing both well-supported and undermaintained software components vital to scientific research. There’s a conversation on the methodological challenges and the concept of "Nebraska packages," which are essential yet potentially undermaintained elements crucial to the software stack used in both industry and science. The conversation also covers broader implications for software sustainability, security, and future research directions, including improving how software contributions are tracked and recognized within scientific careers. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:47] Richard dives into the paper co-authored by Eva and Boris. Boris explains the origins of the paper, starting from a workshop at CZI aimed at accelerating science through sustainable software, leading to the analysis of software used in biomedical research. He highlights the focus on identifying crucial yet often unmentioned software dependencies in research software, which he labels as “unsung heroes.” [00:05:22] Boris provides findings from their study, noting that while many foundational packages were cited, there are significant packages that, despite their critical role, remain uncited. [00:06:43] Eva discusses the concept of “Nebraska packages,” which are essential yet potentially undermaintained components that are crucial to the software stack used in both industry and science. Also, she elaborates on the methodological challenges of determining which packages to include in their analysis, particularly in terms of dependencies that vary between different users and contexts. [00:09:42] Richard reflects on the broader implications of their discussion for the open source community, particularly in terms of software sustainability and security. Eva emphasizes the importance of security across all fields and discusses the potential impact of software bugs on scientific research and the need for robust software infrastructure. [00:12:04] Boris comments on the necessity of well-tested tools in the scientific community, given that many scientists may lack a strong background in software development and training. [00:13:47] Richard quotes from the paper discussing the absence of cycles in the network of software packages used in science, indicating a more robust design compared to general software. He questions this in light of earlier comments about scientists not being great at coding. [00:14:08] Eva explains that the paper’s findings about acyclic dependencies (DAGs) might seem surprising given the common perception that scientific software is poorly developed. She notes that while scientists may not be trained in proper software packaging, the Python environment helps prevent cyclic dependencies. [00:17:31] Richard brings up “Katz centrality” which is discussed in the paper, and Boris clarifies that “Katz centrality” refers to a concept by Leo Katz on network centrality, explaining how it helps determine the importance of nodes within a network. [00:20:13] Richard questions the practical applications of the research findings, probing for advice on supporting crucial but underrecognized dependencies within software ecosystems. Eva addresses future research directions, including improving ecosystem matching algorithms for better accuracy in linking software mentions to the correct ecosystems. [00:22:50] Eva suggests expanding the research to cover more domains beyond biomedicine, considering different software needs across various scientific disciplines. Boris discusses the potential for targeted interventions to support underrecognized contributors in the scientific software community aiming to enhance their prestige. [00:27:22] Richard asks how the research team plans to map dependencies to individual contributors and track their motivations. Boris responds that while they have gathered substantial data from sources like GitHub logs, publishing this information poses ethical challenges due to privacy concerns. [00:28:45] Eva discusses her work on linking GitHub profiles to academic authors using ORCID identifiers to better track contributions to scientific software. [00:31:42] Richard brings up the broader impacts of their research, questioning whether their study on software packages centrality within the scientific community is unique or if there are similar studies at this scale. Eva acknowledges the need for more comprehensive studies and cites a previous study from 2015 that analyzed developer networks on GitHub. Boris adds that while there is extensive literature on scientific citation networks, the study of dependencies is less explored. [00:34:38] Find out where you can follow Boris and Eva’s work and social medias online. Spotlight [00:37:06] Richard’s spotlight is Deirdre Madeleine Smith. [00:37:29] Eva’s spotlight is Talley Lambert. [00:38:02] Boris’s spotlight is the CZI Collaborators. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Twitter SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Mastodon Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Eva Maxfield Brown X/Twitter Eva Maxfield Brown Website Eva Maxfield Brown GitHub Boris Veytsman X/Twitter Boris Veytsman Mastodon Boris Veytsman LinkedIn Chan Zuckerberg Initiative (CTI) “Biomedical Open Source Software : Crucial Packages and Hidden Heroes” (arXiv) “A large dataset of software mentions in the biomedical literature” (arXiv) xkcd Dependency comic 2347 Dataset Artefacts are the Hidden Drivers of the Declining Disruptiveness in Science (arXiv) Directed acyclic graph (DAG) Katz centrality Sustain Podcast-Episode 136: Daniel S. Katz on The Research Software Alliance Sustain Podcast-Episode 159: Dawn Foster & Andrew Nesbitt at State of Open Con 2023 Sustain Podcast-Episode 218: Karthik Ram & James Howison on Research Software Visibility Infrastructure Priorities ORCID Mapping the Impact of Research Software in Science- A CZI Hackathon Deirdre Smith Academia Talley Lambert GitHub Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guests: Boris Veytsman and Eva Maxfield Brown.Support Sustain