Guest Jenn Turner Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer interviews Jenn Turner, a content strategist at Fastly and part of the Glitch team. They discuss Jenn's unusual journey from journalism to open source, the challenges of being a non-technical contributor in a technical field, and the importance of effective communication in open source projects. Jen shares insights about maintaining work-life balance, the role of community in sustaining open source, and the impact of social media changes on community engagement. They also touch on strategies for non-technical contributions to open source and the value of humanities skills in tech. Hit download now to hear more! [00:01:57] Jenn shares her journey into open source. [00:05:09] Richard asks how Jenn navigated being an editor through the world of open source. She emphasizes that many brilliant coders lack the communication skills necessary to bring communities along and highlights the importance of developing critical thinking skills through humanities courses. [00:07:25] Jenn talks about how editors and writers can play an essential role in promoting and communicating the value of open source projects. [00:08:30] We learn that Jenn had to deal with the pressure to learn how to code early in her career, but she recognized coding wasn’t her passion. [00:10:38] Jenn explains how she contributed to Node.js community by writing newsletters and serving on the community committee. [00:11:56] Richard and Jenn discuss the challenges of identifying as non-technical while contributing to technical spaces. [00:14:58] Jenn shares how she decoupled her identity from her occupation to prioritize time with her daughter. [00:17:23] We hear advice from Jenn for non-technical people looking to join a project in open source. [00:21:18] Richard and Jenn discuss the importance of event organizing in the open source space, encouraging listeners to get involved with organizing conferences. [00:23:09] Jenn reflects on the challenges of social media and community engagement, and she shares how Glitch and Fastly try to create meaningful conversations in their forums to foster a more centralized community. [00:32:06] There’s a conversation on the importance of having a style guide for social media to ensure consistency and fun communication. [00:34:00] Find out there you follow Jenn and find her work online. Quotes [00:05:16] “One of the funny things about the tech industry is how much emphasis is put on the ability to code.” [00:05:24] “You could be the world’s most intelligent coder but have no skillset to bring a community along.” [00:13:42] “Truly no one’s value is creating code on a project; it’s their thought process and all of the intentions and goals and things that they’re working towards.” [00:23:33] “You have to have a level of cultural fluency in order to be able to authentically connect with your audience.” Spotlight [00:35:13] Richard’s spotlight is Nolan Lawson. [00:37:12] Jenn’s spotlight is Lynn Fisher’s website, lynnandtonic.com. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Jenn Turner Website Jenn Turner Mastodon Jenn Turner LinkedIn Glitch Blog Glitch Fastly Human JavaScript by Henri Joreteg Sustain Podcast-Episode 59: Jenn Schiffer on Satire, Coding, Why Teaching OSS is Super Important Sustain Podcast-Episode 244: Jan Lehnardt & Alba Herrerías Ramírez of Neighbourhood.ie Sustain Podcast-2 episodes featuring guest Tracy Hinds Sustain Podcast-2 episodes featuring guest Ashley Williams Whichlight Anil Dash Website Robbie Augspurger Website Digital Savvies Nolan Lawson Website Lynn Fisher Website Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Jenn Turner.Support Sustain

Guest Lorenzo Sciandra | Mirko Swillus Panelist Richard Littauer | Abby Mayes Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer and co-host Abby Mayes are joined by Lorenzo Sciandra and Mirko Swillus from the Sovereign Tech Fund (STF) to discuss the launch of the "Fellowship for Maintainers" program. Funded by the German government, STF is dedicated to supporting open-source sustainability by funding maintainers, especially those who work on multiple projects. Lorenzo and Mirko explain how the program aims to bridge funding gaps for solo maintainers, provide mentorship, and ensure global inclusion. The episode also highlights the program's goals, the application process, and the broader impact on global open source sustainability. Hit download now to hear more! [00:01:28] Richard discusses the Sovereign Tech Fund. [00:02:52] Lorenzo highlights the launch of the “Fellowship for Maintainers” program. [00:04:16] Mirko explains that the program is a pilot, starting small and adopting an iterative approach to learn with the community and designed to fill gaps for solo maintainers who work across multiple projects. [00:06:23] Richard asks why STF is focusing on funding individuals rather than specific projects. Mirko explains maintainers often perform important but unseen work, such as security triaging, code reviews, and documentation. [00:08:45] Abby asks about the results of the survey STF conducted in preparation for the fellowship program. Mirko reveals results and insights about the survey and gives a shout-out to their communications manager, Pohen Shiah. [00:10:58] Lorenzo talks about mentorship being a key part of the fellowship and the goal to help fellows set goals and provide support beyond financial assistance. [00:14:14] Lorenzo explains the flexible, personalized nature of mentorship versus coaching and discuses common challenges and Mirko talks about the balance between full-time jobs and maintaining open source projects and explores the idea of part-time maintenance and considers making room for small freelance maintainers. [00:18:59] Richard asks why the program isn’t supporting more maintainers for fewer house each week. Mirko explains how the pilot is designed to experiment with different models. [00:20:29] Richard questions how STF will ensure diversity in selecting fellows and Mirko explains how STF is committed to global inclusion and how freelancers can apply. [00:22:22] We learn how STF will measure success with a discussion on how it be evaluated through various metrics and external experts will also help STF define success metrics for the fellowship. [00:26:39] Richard inquires if STF has reached out to other countries to expand the program. Mirko explains that STF is building global awareness of the program and the European Union and other entitles have shown interests. [00:28:24] Find out where to apply and the application process. Spotlight [00:30:23] Abby’s spotlight is Yoga Mamas Toronto, the community. [00:31:06] Richard’s spotlight is his friend, Jamie McQuilken. [00:31:53] Lorenzo’s spotlight is Proton. [00:32:47] Mirko’s spotlight is Signal app. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Abby Cabunoc Mayes X Lorenzo Sciandra LinkedIn Lorenzo Sciandra Website Mirko Swillus LinkedIn Mirko Swillus chaos social Sustain Podcast-Episode 17: How Formidable Supports Open Source With Lorenzo Sciandra Powen Shiah LinkedIn Sovereign Tech Fund Mission Sovereign Tech Fund-Fellowship for Maintainers Introduction Sovereign Tech Fund Fellowship for Maintainers Application Sovereign Tech Fund-Fellowship for Maintainers Program Sovereign Tech Fund-Fellowship for Maintainers FAQ Yoga Mamas-Toronto Proton Signal Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guests: Lorenzo Sciandra and Mirko Swillus.Support Sustain

Chad Whitacre, Head of Open Source at Sentry and a pivotal figure in the open source community, discusses the journey of Sentry from an open source project to a profitable startup. He highlights the launch of the OSS Pledge, aimed at encouraging companies to financially support open source initiatives. The conversation also covers the challenges of funding in this space, the importance of community engagement, and the evolving role of open source foundations in sustaining projects. Chad emphasizes making open source a core part of company culture.

Guest Divya Mohan Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode, host Richard Littauer welcomes guest Divya Mohan, Principal Technology Advocate at SUSE, as they discuss her journey into open source and her role in advocating for SUSE's projects. The conversation delves into the importance of community involvement, the goals of CHAOSS Asia, and the challenges of fostering a cohesive open-source community across a diverse continent. They also explore the necessity of standardization within the CHAOSS project to ensure trust and reliability, highlighting cultural differences in open-source adoption across Asia. Additionally, Divya shares insights on bridging gaps in FOSS education, overcoming language barriers, and new initiatives, including efforts to include Oceania and focus on disabled Asians in the open-source community. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:30] Divya explains her journey into open source and her current role in advocating for projects without focusing on marketing or selling. [00:02:24] She elaborates on SUSE’s focus on cloud-native projects, SAP, and Edge, while mentioning that she was the sole technology advocate until recently. [00:03:02] Divya discusses her responsibilities, including creating awareness materials, live streams, and courses around SUSE’s projects, particularly focusing on open source projects. [00:04:22] Divya emphasizes the importance of community involvement in open source projects, mentioning that while the core maintainers are SUSE employees, the wider community is encouraged to contribute. She also clarifies that SUSE projects are inherently open source from the beginning. [00:07:42] The conversation shifts to Divya’s involvement in CHAOSS Asia, a regional chapter of the CHAOSS project, and she talks about the goals of CHAOSS Asia, which include discovering unique challenges of open source communities in Asia, building a database of these communities, and working on the standardization of metrics. [00:11:42] The discussion delves deeper into why standardization is necessary for CHAOSS Asia, particularly focusing on the regional differences and the need for a trusted seal of approval. [00:13:26] Richard questions the necessity of ISO standards for open source projects, and Divya explains that it’s about providing a clear definition of what is accepted within the metrics, drawing parallels with the open chain standard. [00:15:39] The conversation returns to the ISO standard, with Divya noting that the demand for a standard came from Asian companies, highlighting the cultural and regional differences in the IT industry. [00:17:14] Richard and Divya discuss the diverse approaches to open source contributions across different Asian regions and the challenges of fostering a cohesive open source community across such a diverse continent. [00:19:03] Divya shares insights on the varying governmental and business support for open source in different Asian countries, and the fragmented nature of FOSS education across the continent. [00:22:17] Divya touches on the language barriers within CHAOSS Asia and how they’re addressed through transcription tools and subgroups. She also mentions new initiatives, including a focus group for disabled Asians in the open source community. [00:23:26] Richard and Divya discuss the inclusion of Oceania in CHAOSS Asia and expresses hope for more participation from Oceania. [00:24:40] Find out where you can follow Divya and CHAOSS Asia online. Quotes [00:22:50] “OSS projects are the best example of how asynchronous communities can give something of value.” Spotlight [00:25:36] Richard’s spotlight is Stephen E. Thorpe. [00:26:44] Divya’s spotlight is Savitha Raghunathan. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org (email) richard@theuserismymom.com (email) SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Divya Mohan LinkedIn Divya Mohan’s Website Divya Mohan X/Twitter SUSE CHAOSS Asia CHAOSS Metrics and Metrics Models Stephen E. Thorpe Savitha Raghunathan LinkedIn Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Divya Mohan.Support Sustain

Brian Douglas, founder and CEO of Open Sauced, explores the nuances of sustaining open-source projects. He shares insights from his tenure at GitHub and Netlify while discussing the importance of effective metrics, like the 'contributor absence factor.' Brian also delves into the challenges of funding and supporting smaller projects amidst enterprise needs. With a focus on community engagement and mentorship, he emphasizes how diverse perspectives can drive innovation and ensure the longevity of open-source ecosystems.

Jan Lehnardt and Alba Herrerías Ramírez of Neighbourhood.ie share their journey in the open source landscape. They discuss the rise and challenges of the Hoodie project, alongside the successes of CouchDB and PouchDB. The duo highlights their collaboration with the Sovereign Tech Fund, emphasizing the need for resilience in open source projects. Ethical considerations in consultancy and the importance of community support in tech are also explored, showcasing their commitment to making a sustainable impact.

Guests Elizabeth Barron | Luis Cañas-Diaz | Dawn Foster Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by three guests, Dawn Foster, Elizabeth Barron, and Luis Cañas Diaz, to discuss the CHAOSS Project's recent development of Practitioner Guides. The show delves into the purpose of these guides, which are designed to help open source projects interpret and utilize metrics to improve community health and sustainability. The guests explain the significance of metrics in open source projects, the challenges of defining and making them accessible, and how the guides can benefit different types of projects, from large corporations to individual developers. Topics covered include the background and format of the guides, specifics on the metrics discussed, and the practical applications and improvements these guides aim to facilitate. Go ahead and download this episode now! [00:01:53] Dawn fills us in on the connections between the guests and their collective work on the CHAOSS Practitioner Guides. [00:02:33] The conversation shifts to the specifics of the CHAOSS Project, highlighting the international community involvement and various working groups focusing on different aspects of open source projects like corporate OSPOs, university OSPOs, and diversity and equity initiatives. [00:04:21] Luis describes the origin and work of Bitergia and its collaboration with CHAOSS Project, particularly in developing tools like Grimoire Lab. [00:06:07] Richard turns the discussion to the CHAOSS Project’s Practitioner Guides, where Dawn discusses the purpose of the introduction guide in the series, designed to help users understand and apply metrics effectively across various open source contexts. [00:09:48] There’s a discussion on the format of the guides, emphasizing their accessibility, ethical considerations in data handling, and how they’re designed to be adaptable to different needs. Luis highlights the need for CHAOSS and Bitergia projects to provide actionable insights rather than just more metrics. [00:12:18] Elizabeth and Dawn explain the broader goal of the guides to not only provide metrics but also helps users interpret and apply these to drive tangible improvements in open source projects. [00:13:44] We learn about the target audience for the guides and how they cater to both large organizational structures (OSPOs) and individual project maintainers. [00:15:04] Dawn explains what the Contributor Sustainability Guide focuses on, emphasizing strategies for sustainable contribution and community involvement in open source projects. [00:16:42] The discussion centers on renaming the “bus factor” metric to “contributor absence factor” to avoid the negative connotations of the original term, Luis emphasizes the relevance of metrics, particularly in small projects, and Dawn explains that the guides focus on a few key metrics per guide, chosen for their ease of understanding and minimal requirement for data collection. [00:20:47] Richard inquires about the effectiveness of metrics in identifying if a project is on the wrong path, prompting a discussion on the goals of a project and how metrics align with those metrics. Elizabeth and Dawn stress the importance of aligning metrics with project goals and involving project contributors in discussions about what metrics are most relevant. [00:23:26] The discussion continues with considerations on how metrics should supplement, not replace, expert judgement and involvement in project management. Elizabeth and Richard discuss the potential for projects to start with community growth in mind and the challenges in measuring and guiding such growth. [00:27:07] The conversation switches to the remaining guides not yet covered, with Richard asking about the guides on Responsiveness and Organizational Participation. Dawn explains the Responsiveness guide, with its focus on key metrics like time to first response, time to close, and change request closure ratio. Elizabeth and Luis share why this is one of their favorite guides. [00:32:12] We hear about the broader applicability of the guides. Richard questions if the guides are only for corporate-driven projects or if they can serve more relaxed open source environments. Dawn and Luis emphasize that the guides are valuable for a variety of stakeholders, including foundations and volunteers. [00:33:49] Find out where you can look at the Practitioner Guides online. Quotes [00:06:34] “At the CHAOSS Project we have a whole bunch of metrics, and we have tools or software that help you gather those metrics.” [00:06:56] “There is no one-size-fits-all approach to interpreting metrics.” [00:14:00] “A lot of these guides were designed with OSPOs in mind. They’re all useful to anyone who’s managing a project.” [00:18:45] “For metrics, the bigger the project, the more useful they are.” Spotlight [00:34:43] Richard’s spotlight is Johnny Wilson, an eBird reviewer. [00:35:23] Elizabeth’s spotlight is a project called Clocker. [00:36:19] Dawn’s spotlight is Nadia Eghbal’s book, _Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software, _and her paper, “Roads and Bridges: The Unseen Labor Behind Our Digital Infrastructure.” [00:37:18] Luis’s spotlight is Moodle, the OSS learning platform. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Mastodon Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Elizabeth Barron Website Elizabeth Barron LinkedIn Luis Cañas-Diaz Website Luis Cañas-Diaz LinkedIn Dawn Foster Website Dawn Foster LinkedIn CHAOSS CHAOSS slack CHAOSS Practitioner Guides Johnny Wilson-Ventures Birding Tours Clocker Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software by Nadia Eghbal “Roads and Bridges: The Unseen Labor Behind Our Digital Infrastructure” by Nadia Eghbal Nadia Asparouhova (Eghbal) Website Moodle Sustain Podcast featuring Nadia Eghbal Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guests: Dawn Foster, Elizabeth Barron, and Luis Cañas Diaz.Support Sustain

Guest Ben Cotton Panelist Leslie Hawthorne Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Leslie Hawthorn is joined by guest, Ben Cotton, the Open Source Community Lead at Kusari and former Fedora Program Manager. Ben discusses his career path, the importance of intentional program management in open source projects, and shares insights from his book, 'Program Management for Open Source Projects.' The conversation covers the evolution of engagement in open source communities, the impact of professionalization, and the challenges posed by AI in maintaining open source inclusivity. They also touch on the current trends of corporate involvement in open source. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:38] Ben mentions that he wrote his book to see his name on a cover but also explains the practical reasons for writing it, aiming to assist with the program management of open source projects. [00:04:42] Leslie mentions Karl Fogel’s book and discusses how engagement with open source often starts with a technical interest but deepens due to human interactions within the community. [00:05:28] Ben shares his background in synpotic meteorology and how an unexpected opportunity led him to maintain software for weather data visualization, which paved his way into system administration and eventually open source. [00:10:43] Leslie and Ben discuss the evolution of participation in open source projects, noting changes in the community’s structure, barriers to entry for newcomers, and the importance of fostering a respectful and inclusive environment for all contributors. [00:13:43] Leslie discusses the trend towards older participants in open source projects and attributes it to the professionalization of these projects and she expresses concerns about how the focus on AI development might limit open engagement in open source projects. [00:16:46] Ben remarks on the ease of using modern technology like Linux systems, contrasting it with earlier experiences that required more user involvement and customization. Leslie shares the potential benefits of AI, envisioning a future where technology adapts to individual needs, like assisting her visually impaired daughter. [00:23:07] Ben reflects on generational differences in technology use and stresses the importance of understanding the impact of our technological choices on future generations, especially concerning environmental sustainability. [00:27:24] Leslie brings up a question from Richard who was interested in hearing Ben’s view on program management in open source projects, and how it differs from the role of a developer who manages projects. Ben explains that roles in open source differ from corporate roles as individuals often wear multiple hats, switching between developer, designer, and documenter tasks. [00:30:15] Leslie reflects on the challenges of task switching and the potential for burnout among open source maintainers, particularly those without corporate support. Ben suggests that open source maintainers allow newcomers to handle low-risk tasks to prevent burnout and maintain engagement. [00:34:21] Leslie shares the grief she hears from friends about the typical career progression for developers into management roles, which may not align with their passions, emphasizing the importance of finding fulfillment in one's tasks. [00:35:24] Ben discusses the challenging corporate attitudes towards open source as economic conditions shift. Leslie expresses dissatisfaction with how corporations have historically invested in open source communities, suggesting that even when funding was plentiful, investment was inadequate. Spotlight [00:40:56] Ben’s spotlight is WeeWX. [00:42:44] Leslie’s spotlight is the great city of Berlin, Germany. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org (email) richard@theuserismymom.com (email) SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Leslie Hawthorn X/Twitter Leslie Hawthorn LinkedIn Ben Cotton Mastodon Ben Cotton Website Ben Cotton LinkedIn Kusari Program Management for Open Source Projects by Ben Cotton Producing Open Source Software by Karl Fogel WeeWX Berlin Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Ben Cotton.Support Sustain

Tracy Hinds and Ashley Williams discuss open source funding challenges, misaligned incentives, regulatory changes, and the need for more equitable systems in the industry. They highlight the economic impact of sustaining efforts, the roles of open source foundations, and their involvement in a working group focused on European CRA legislation to bridge gaps between maintainers and policymakers.

Guest Yo Yehudi Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by Yo Yehudi, Executive Director of Open Life Science (OLS), who discusses the importance of sustaining open source and scientific research. They cover topics such as the transition of OLS from a life sciences focus to all sciences, the importance of sharing scientific work openly, and strategies for building inclusive and sustainable communities within open source projects. Yo also touches on the challenges of funding and supporting volunteer-driven initiatives, their approach to managing volunteer contributions, and insights from their doctoral research on open source project sustainability. Hit download now to hear more! [00:02:19] Yo describes OLS as an organization helping scientists to share their work globally, addressing the common issue of data loss when scientists leave academia without sharing their work. [00:02:56] The conversation explores how OLS has expanded to include all sciences, not just life sciences, and even fields outside of traditional scientific disciplines. [00:03:46] Yo critiques the traditional methods of scientific communication, highlighting the importance of sharing code and computational methods alongside traditional manuscripts. [00:05:55] Richard and Yo discuss the inclusive definition of a scientist, emphasizing curiosity and rigor over formal educational credentials. [00:07:28] There’s a discussion on OLS’s operational scope and strategic focus to prevent “scope creep,” emphasizing training, mentoring, and incubation projects. [00:09:57] Yo details the team size and funding strategy of OLS, mentioning how they transitioned from a volunteer-based to a funded organization. [00:00:00] Richard discusses the challenge of differentiating OLS for funding in a competitive space filled with similar organizations. Yo explains that OLS views similar organizations not as competitors but as potential collaborators, striving to differentiate by working together and clearly defining each other’s unique roles. [00:16:20] There’s a discussion on volunteer contributions and avoiding exploitation. [00:17:49] Richard and Yo discuss the challenges of altering the mindset around volunteer compensation and ensuring that project contributions are recognized and supported financially. Yo explains how OLS had adapted its approach to offering support, ensuring it meets diverse needs efficiently. [00:20:44] The conversation shifts to how OLS assists open source practitioners in publishing their work and code effectively, emphasizing the importance of flexibility and thoughtful sharing practices. [00:22:34] Yo highlights changes in OLS’s teachings, particularly focusing on equity and the experience of marginalized individuals in open source communities and talks about open access publishing. [00:25:13] Yo acknowledges that using platforms like GitHub and arXiv could be viable options for sharing scientific work, providing it’s done responsibly, respecting privacy, and not including sensitive data. [00:26:12] Richard draws a parallel between the challenges faced by scientists needing traditional publication credentials and open source contributors needing recognition for their contributions outside mainstream channels. Yo shares their personal stance on working within the capitalist system to bring about change. [00:28:45] Yo details their doctoral study focused on the longevity of open source projects, noting their findings that the metrics used did not predict project sustainability as expected. [00:32:23] Yo announces their recent successful defense of their doctoral thesis, emphasizing the importance of practical and community-focused approaches in open source projects. [00:33:36] Find out where you can learn more about Yo and their work online. Quotes [00:04:10] “Science is everything else we see.” [00:04:20] “Science uses a lot of code to create outputs, to visualize the work they’re doing, to understand things….code and computations come into science in so many different ways.” [00:18:53] “We had a very low uptake, which was surprising, and then we changed the way we asked people to ask for money, and we had more [people ask for funds].” [00:27:50] “The fact that open source really was founded pragmatically as a way to exploit free labor makes me uncomfortable.” [00:33:14] “Make sure you have functional friendly humans.” Spotlight [00:34:22] Richard’s spotlight is the book, _Joseph Banks: A Life _by Patrick O’Brian. [00:35:12] Yo’s spotlight is InterMine. Links SustainOSS SustainOSS Discourse podcast@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Mastodon Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Yo Yehudi Website Yo Yehudi LinkedIn Open Life Science (OLS) Sustain Podcast with host Abigail Cabunoc Mayes Mozilla Joseph Banks: A life by Patrick O’Brian InterMine Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Yo Yehudi.Support Sustain