Sustain

Guests Ben Nickolls | Andrew Nesbitt Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard is joined by guests Ben Nickolls and Andrew Nesbitt to discuss the ecosyste.ms project. They explore how ecosyste.ms collects and analyzes metadata from various open-source projects to create a comprehensive database that can help improve funding allocation. The discussion covers the importance of funding the most critical open-source projects, the existing gaps in funding, and the partnership between ecosyste.ms and Open Source Collective to create funding algorithms that support entire ecosystems. They also talk about the challenges of maintaining data, reaching out to project maintainers, and the broader implications for the open-source community. Hit the download button now! [00:01:58] Andrew and Ben explain ecosyste.ms, what it does, and how it compares to Libraries.io. [00:04:59] Ecosyste.ms tracks metadata, not the packages themselves, and enriches data via dependency graphs, committers, issues, SBOMs, and more. [00:06:54] Andrew talks about finding 1,890 Git hosts and how many critical projects live outside GitHub. [00:08:37] There’s a conversation on metadata uses and SBOM parsing. [00:12:49] Richard inquires about the ecosystem.ms funds on their website which Andrew explains it’s a collaboration between Open Collective and ecosyste.ms. that algorithmically distributes funds to the most used, not most popular packages. [00:15:45] Ben shares how this is different from previous projects and brings up a past project, “Back Your Stack” and explains how ecosyste.ms is doing two things differently. [00:18:59] Ben explains how it supports payouts to other platforms and encourages maintainers to adopt funding YAML files for automation. Andrew touches on efficient outreach, payout management, and API usage (GraphQL). [00:25:36] Ben elaborates on how companies can fund ecosyste.ms (like Django) instead of curating their own lists and being inspired by Sentry’s work with the Open Source Pledge. [00:29:32] Andrew speaks about scaling and developer engagement and emphasizes their focus is on high-impact sustainability. [00:32:48] Richard asks, “Why does it matter?” Ben explains that most current funding goes to popular, not most used projects and ecosyste.ms aims to fix the gap with data backed funding, and he suggests use of open standards like 360Giving and Open Contracting Data. [00:35:46] Andrew shares his thoughts on funding the right projects by improving 1% of OSS, you uplift the quality of millions of dependent projects with healthier infrastructure, faster security updates, and more resilient software. [00:38:35] Find out where you can follow ecosyste.ms and the blog on the web. Quotes [00:11:18] “I call them interesting forks. If a fork is referenced by a package, it’ll get indexed.” [00:22:07] We’ve built a service that now moves like $25 million a year between OSS maintainers on OSC.” [00:33:23] “We don’t have enough information to make collective decisions about which projects, communities, maintainers, should receive more funding.” [00:34:23] “The NSF POSE Program has distributed hundreds of millions of dollars of funding to open source communities alone.” [00:35:47] “If you have ten, twenty thousand really critical open source projects, that actually isn’t unachievable to make those projects sustainable.” Spotlight [00:39:35] Ben’s spotlight is Jellyfin. [00:40:20] Andrew’s spotlight is zizmor. [00:42:21] Richard’s spotlight is The LaTeX Project. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Ben Nickolls LinkedIn Andrew Nesbitt Website Andrew Nesbitt Mastodon Octobox ecosyste.ms ecosyste.ms Blog Open Source Collective Open Source Collective Updates Open Source Collective Contributions Open Source Collective Contributors Open Collective 24 Pull Requests Libraries.io The penumbra of open source (EPJ Data Science) FOSDEM ’25- Open source funding: you’re doing it wrong (Andrew and Ben) Vue.js thanks.dev StackAid Back Your Stack NSF POSE Django GitHub Sponsors Sustain Podcast-Episode 80: Emma Irwin and the Foss Fund Program Sustain Podcast- 3 Episodes featuring Chad Whitacre Sustain Podcast- Episode 218: Karthik Ram & James Howison on Research Software Visibility Infrastructure Priorities Sustain Podcast-Episode 247: Chad Whitacre on the Open Source Pledge Invest in Open Infrastructure 360Giving Open Contracting Data Standard Jellyfin zizmor The LaTeX Project Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guests: Andrew Nesbitt and Benjamin Nickolls.Support Sustain

Guests Marianne Bellotti | Greg Wilson Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer talks with Marianne Bellotti, author of *Kill It with Fire, *and Greg Wilson, co-founder of the Carpentries, about what happens to your code when you leave your job and how to make sure it survives. They discuss their new paper, "10 quick tips for making your software outlive your job," and share practical strategies for protecting, documenting, and sustaining code in open source, research, and civil service environments. Whether you're preparing for a job change or want to future-proof your work, this conversation offers real-world advice for developers and researchers alike. Hit the download button now! [00:03:04] Greg and Marianne talk about challenges in code sustainability. [00:05:46] Greg speaks about how scientists often prototype rather than build production quality code. [00:09:48] We start with Step 1 in the paper: “Consider your threat mode.” Greg explains the different plans needed for individual vs. systematic departures, Marianne speaks about the importance of understanding code lifecycle-some code has a “fruit fly” lifespan others a “tortoise” one, and Richard adds to think about reframe threat modeling around future usefulness. [00:15:53] There’s a discussion on Step 2: “Get sign-off on releasing it publicly.” [00:21:30] Greg discusses Step 3: “Choose an open license” and emphasizes to stick to well-known licenses (MIT, BSD), don’t write your own, and he shares a funny story. [00:25:29] Richard talks about Step 4: “Put your code somewhere safe” and shares to upload code to GitHub, Codeberg, OSF, Zenodo, etc. Greg suggest peer-to-peer methods like torrents could help long-term preservation and Marianne emphasizes the importance of verified identities when sharing. [00:29:21] Marianne introduces Step 5: “Document your code.” Greg shares that most documentation goes unread and LLMs could help mine useful documentation from conversation records and Marianne emphasizes to focus on “how to run it” first and tests are a part of your documentation. [00:35:17] Step 6: “Make your code reproducible.” Greg and Marianne discuss using tools like Docker, uv for Python lockfiles, etc., for dependency management. [00:36:23] Step 7: “Make your code citable” and Step 8: “Encourage community adoption.” Richard mentions to add a CITATION.cff file so others can cite your code and Greg mentions a great book he read that changed the way he viewed this called, Marketing for Scientists, by Marc Kuchner. [00:38:49] Step 9: “Write a succession or sunsetting plan.” Marianne shares to define success and failure criteria for projects explicitly. [00:40:36] Step 10: “Talk about what you’re doing.” Greg emphasizes to celebrate and grieve project endings properly and Richard encourages listeners to check out the paper, read it, and if you see something missing you can contribute back. [00:43:12] Fnal thoughts from Greg and Marianne: Organize collectively to protect science and code sustainability and find your team. Quotes [00:12:10] “Weapons begin as toys.” [00:14:09] “All code is throwaway code.” [00:27:34] “Sooner or later every library burns.” [00:29:44] “Most documentation is never read by anybody because it’s not answering the questions that you actually have.” [00:41:05] “Take some time to celebrate and to grieve.” Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Marianne Bellotti (Medium) Marianne Bellotti LinkedIn Greg Wilson GitHub Greg Wilson LinkedIn “10 Quick tips for making your code last beyond your current job” (draft) Kill It With Fire by Marianne Bellotti Marketing for Scientists: How to Shine in Tough Times by Marc J. Kuchner Codeberg Zenodo OSF Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guests: Greg Wilson and Marianne Bellotti.Support Sustain

Guest Dirkjan Ochtman Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this special Maintainer Month episode of Sustain, host Richard speaks with Dirkjan Ochtman, a long-time open source contributor and Rust advocate. They dive deep into what it's like maintaining critical infrastructure libraries, the motivations behind taking over "abandonware," and how funding ecosystems like GitHub Sponsors and thanks.dev help sustain low-level dependencies. Dirkjan also reflects on how Rust’s design lends itself well to long-term maintainability and shares thoughts on the challenges of burnout, context switching, and ensuring project continuity. Hit the download button now! [00:01:33] Dirkjan explains how he chooses which projects he’s maintaining, being passionate about memory safety via Rust, and maintaining tools like Rustls, Hickory DNS, and Quinn. [00:03:14] Dirkjan describes his motivation for maintaining abandonware and sees it as providing value to the community. [00:04:23] ISRG funds Dirkjan’s work on memory-safe DNS and TLS libraires, and they are replacing C-based libraires with Rust equivalents. [00:05:33] Dirkjan uses thanks.dev to help fund maintainers through the full dependency graph and revenue is limited but promising. [00:08:06] Richard brings up Tidelift and Dirkjan mentions it’s not yielding results for Rust projects yet because the Rust ecosystem is smaller. [00:09:30] We hear Dirkjan’s journey into Rust, starting in Python but frustrated by lack of type safety and performance, and creating his own compiler before appreciating Rust’s complexity. [00:12:20] Dirkjan talks about his transition from Python to Rust. [00:13:39] Dirkjan uses PyO3 to create Python bindings for Rust libraries. [00:15:31] Richard wonders why projects become unmaintained and Dirkjan responds that people have life events, job changes, or shifting interests. [00:17:11] How are unmaintained projects flagged? Dirkjan uses the RustSec Advisory DB to detect projects with no active maintainers. [00:18:47] Dirkjan avoids burnout as a maintainer by keeping the scope narrow, only responds to PRs, doesn’t overcommit, and focuses on high-efficiency, low-effort maintenance. [00:19:51] Rust has a strong system, built-in unit tests, great CI support, and Dirkjan encourages atomic commits to simplify code review. [00:21:28] Dirkjan speaks about languages that are more maintainer safe. [00:22:18] Richard brings up attack vectors and the ‘left-pad incident.’ Dirkjan shares how he builds trust via his public GitHub record. [00:24:17] We hear Dirkjan’s offboarding and succession planning as he explains handing off projects like Askama and promoting multiple maintainers to reduce bus factor. [00:26:08] Dirkjan’s long-term vision for OSS sustainability is he hopes to move higher in the stack and wants to make high-quality software easier to build. [00:27:38] Dirkjan explains why he prefers to do asynchronous collaboration over pair programming. [00:28:52] Dirkjan discusses Rust’s long-term ecosystem stability. [00:31:09] Find out where you can follow Dirkjan on the web. Quotes [00:03:23] “You call it abandonware and I call it a dependency that has a million users.” [00:19:02] “[When I take on a project], I don’t take on the burden of proactively improving the project.” [00:19:11] “I will be there when someone submits a PR." [00:20:37] “I ask folks to make small changes: atomic commits.” Spotlight [00:31:37] Richard’s spotlight is Allan Day. [00:32:20] Dirkjan’s spotlight is Xilem. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Dirkjan Ochtman LinkedIn Dirkjan Ochtman Blog Dirkjan Ochtman Mastodon Dirkjan Ochtman GitHub Dirkjan Ochtman Bluesky Rust Rustls Hickory DNS Quinn Internet Security Research Group (ISRG) Let’s Encrypt Automatic Certificate Management Environment PyO3 user guide Sustain Podcast-Episode 108: Sarah Gran and Josh Aas: Sustainable Digital Infrastructure with Memory Safe Code Sustain Podcast-Episode 148: Ali Nehzat of thanks.dev and OSS Funding Tidelift RustSec Advisory Database-GitHub Askama Allan Day’s GNOME Blog Xilem Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Dirkjan Ochtman.Support Sustain

Michelle Barker, Director of the Research Software Alliance (ReSA), discusses her journey from sociology to championing open science. She highlights the importance of research software and ReSA's role in uniting global efforts for software collaboration. The conversation delves into building social infrastructure in the open-source ecosystem and the challenges of connecting various stakeholders. Michelle also shares insights on effective networking strategies and the significance of community engagement in advancing research software projects.

Guests Eriol Fox | Allen “Gunner” Gunn | Leslie Hawthorn | Abby Cabunoc Mayes Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this special episode of Sustain, Richard has a discussion with guests and fellow hosts Eriol Fox, Abby Cabunoc Mayes, Leslie Hawthorne, and Gunner, about the recent virtual Sustain event discussing the current state and future of sustaining open source software. The conversation covers a broad range of topics, from the impact of AI on open source and the complexity of corporate funding, to the importance of succession planning and the need for a continued focus on equity and inclusion. The group also express gratitude to the community and highlight the necessity of creating safe spaces for deep and meaningful discussions about the human aspects of open source. Future events and potential topics are also teased. Hit the download button now! [00:01:45] Gunner shares an event summary starting on the evolution of SustainOSS, and talks about the topics ranging from usage metrics, donor programs, geopolitical barriers in FOSS, and details the working sessions. [00:03:34] Everyone shares their personal takeaway from the event. [00:09:57] We hear about the conversations that were missed at the event and what everyone would like to talk about in the future about sustaining open source. [00:17:56] Gunner briefs us on the next event with a possibility of another forum focused entirely on AI, and Richard proposes exploring digital sovereignty and how it intersects with open source principles. [00:19:39] We end with final thoughts from everyone: Gunner expresses gratitude for the community, Abby is grateful for the space and conversations, Leslie gives a shoutout to UN Open Source Week for fostering global cooperation, Eriol praises Jonah Duckles for putting out “Ten Simple Rules for Academic Open Source Collaborations with Industry,” and Richard encourages listeners to keep contributing and engaging with the Sustain community. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Eriol Fox Website Allen “Gunner” Gunn LinkedIn Leslie Hawthorn LinkedIn Abby Cabunoc Mayes Website Monki Gras 2025 UN Open Source Week 2025 Ten Simple Rules for Academic Open Source Collaborations with Industry by Jonah Duckles, Dan Sholler, Beth Duckles Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Support Sustain

Sean Goggins, a tenured professor at the University of Missouri, dives into the world of open source through his work with the CHAOSS Project. He emphasizes distributed leadership as a cornerstone for open source sustainability and explores how metrics can drive improvement. Sean reflects on balancing academia with community engagement, discussing challenges like the maintenance of open-source software. He also highlights the significance of mentorship and collaboration in creating inclusive and supportive environments within open source communities.

Guest Neil Chue Hong Panelists Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, hosts Richard Littauer and Justin Dorfman talk with Neil Chue Hong, Director of the Software Sustainability Institute (SSI). They discuss the SSI's mission to sustain software used in research, the institute's history and funding, the role of research software engineers, and the newly launched Research Software Maintenance Fund (RSMF) with £4.8 million dedicated to supporting research software. Neil shares insights into the collaboration, training initiatives, and policy work done by the SSI to promote sustainability in software development. The episode also touches on the impact of large funding initiatives like those from the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative and the evolving role of software development in the age of large language models (LLMs). Hit the download button now! [00:01:44] Neil explains SSI’s mission and purpose. [00:02:27] Richard inquires about SSI’s funding model and how long SSI has existed. Neil explains SSI is a government funded collaboration via UK Research and Innovation (UKRI), and it was founded in 2010 and is funded through 2028. [00:05:03] Richard highlights SSI’s impact and Neil discusses how SSI helped establish “Research Software Engineer (RSE)’ as a recognized role. [00:08:20] SSI’s annual Collaborations Workshop (May 13-15 in Stirling, UK) is mentioned, and Neil recalls a pivotal collaboration with Greg Wilson (Software Carpentry), which expanded training programs. [00:11:16] Neil explains that the SSI has evolved from consultancy to training, community initiatives, and policy advocacy to scale its impact and ensure long-term sustainability in research software. [00:13:57] Richard introduces SSI’s new £4.8M Research Software Maintenance Fund (RSMF). Neil explains it supports maintaining existing research software and it’s funded by the UK’s Digital Research Infrastructure Programme (UKRI). [00:16:54] A question comes up about the geopolitical impact of this funding and Neil states the UK is maintaining leadership in research software sustainability, not just focusing on national capability. [00:20:54] Neil defines research software products being targeted by the RSMF as software used beyond its original development team. [00:22:54] Richard asks if £4.8M is a significant investment and Neil explains this is comparable to past UK research software grants.. [00:25:10] Neil acknowledges Chan Zuckerberg Initiative (CZI) for improving funding models for research software. [00:29:45] Justin asks how LLMs are changing research software engineering. Neil compares LLMs’ impact on software development to smartphones revolutionizing photography. [00:34:05] Find out where you can connect with UKRI, SSI, and with Neil on the web. Quotes [00:02:07] “We’ve got this motto: Better Software, Better Research.” [00:29:03] “You can define what is clearly sci-fi, you can define what is clearly research software, but making an arbitrary cut-off point is really hard.” Spotlight [00:35:13] Justin’s spotlight is ghostty. [00:35:40] Richard’s spotlight is Olympus Tough cameras. [00:36:34] Neil’s spotlight is The Carpentries and Cinema For All. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Justin Dorfman X Neil Chue Hong LinkedIn Software Sustainability Institute (SSI) Save the date for Collaborations Workshop 2025 (CW25)-SSI UKRI awards the Software Sustainability Institute £4.8m to strengthen research software maintenance in the UK (SSI) Digital Research Infrastructure Programme (UKRI) Sustain Podcast- Episode 43: Investing in Open Infrastructure with Kaitlin Thaney Sustain Podcast- Episode 230: Kari L. Jordan on The Carpentries Sustain Podcast- Episode 235: The State of Open Infrastructure 2024, from IOI with Emmy Tsang Open Source in Academia Map ghostty Olympus Tough camera The Carpentries Cinema For All Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Neil Chue Hong.Support Sustain

In this engaging conversation, Alison Hill, VP of Product at Anaconda and a cognitive scientist, shares her journey from academia to the tech industry. She explores the vital role of product management in open source, especially in balancing user needs with business goals. Alison discusses the challenges of maintaining open source projects like the Palmer Penguins, emphasizing the importance of community engagement and sustainable practices. Her insights on data science education and the significance of statistics will inspire anyone in the tech field!

Brian Muenzenmeyer, a seasoned open source contributor and author of 'Approachable Open Source,' shares his journey from early contributions to overcoming burnout. He discusses the importance of building sustainable open source communities and the balance between innovation and stability. Offering insights from his book, he emphasizes the significance of diverse contributions and accessible avenues for participation, while advocating for corporate engagement in funding models. Tune in for practical advice on navigating challenges in the open source landscape!

In this conversation, Alexander Petros, the core maintainer of htmx, shares his passion for sustainable web development tools. He delves into the evolution of HTML and critiques the overcomplexity many developers bring to solutions. The origins of htmx as a jQuery extension and its transition during the pandemic are discussed. Alexander emphasizes the need for lightweight systems and long-term sustainability in digital infrastructure. He also offers a vision for the future of web technologies focused on simplicity and scalability.