When you have an idea for a change that would make your workplace better for women, where do you begin? How can you push for a childcare stipend, a company-wide pay audit, a more comprehensive health care plan, or an ombuds office? If you instigate the change, do you have to be the face of it? What are the other roles you can play? Two experts in systemic, organizational change explain the behind-the-scenes strategizing, relationship building, and risk management that should happen before approaching the people in charge, who will then need to support, fund, and build out the proposal. And because sustaining a grassroots initiative requires motivating a bunch of volunteers, they also share tried-and-true ways to keep everyone invested in the cause, aligned, and on track. Guests:   Lily Zheng is a diversity, equity, and inclusion strategist and executive coach. Their latest book is DEI Deconstructed: Your No-Nonsense Guide to Doing the Work and Doing It Right. Ashley Lewis is the assistant director of the UAW’s women’s department and a national vice president for the Coalition of Labor Union Women. Resources: “To Avoid DEI Backlash, Focus on Changing Systems — Not People,” by Lily Zheng “Dig, Bridge, Collectively Act,” by Tina Opie and Beth A. Livingston “How Leaders Get in the Way of Organizational Change,” by Ron Carucci “Cultivating Everyday Courage,” by James R. Detert “How to Figure Out How Much Influence You Have at Work,” by Maxim Sytch Sign up for the Women at Work newsletter. Email us: womenatwork@hbr.org

Tuck speaks with DEI strategist Lily Zheng (they/them). Topics include:  Why pizza can be more useful than a 60-minute workshop Can we DEI our way out of transphobic workplaces? What makes allyship performative? (It’s not what you think!) Should corporations be hosting Trans Day of Remembrance events? Plus: does DEI work delay the proletarian revolution?? This Week in Gender: an exclusive Gender Conceal clip with Kirby Conrod about all things -ussy.   Find Lily at lilyzheng.co and on LinkedIn. Listen to Tuck on NPR’s It’s Been a Minute. Tickets for our Feb. 1 Brooklyn live show are on sale now!  Submit a piece of Theymail: a small message or ad that we’ll read on the show. Join our Patreon (patreon.com/gender) to get access to our monthly bonus podcast, weekly newsletter, and other fun perks. Find episode transcripts at genderpodcast.com. We’re also on Twitter and Instagram @gendereveal. Senior Producer: Ozzy Llinas Goodman Logo: Ira M. LeighMusic: Breakmaster CylinderAdditional Music: Blue Dot Sessions Sponsors: DeleteMe (promo code: TUCK20)

In this discussion, guests Brad Johnson and David Smith, both esteemed professors and co-authors of influential works on gender equity, delve into the critical role of male allies in the workplace. They share strategies for men to authentically support their female colleagues, emphasizing the balance between involvement and the risk of diminishing women's voices. Joining them, Lily Zheng, a leading diversity consultant, stresses the necessity for systemic change and ongoing advocacy, exploring how remote work has reshaped gender dynamics and the importance of equitable partnerships both at work and home.