There are maps, and there are territories, and humans frequently confuse the two. No matter how insistently this point has been made by cognitive neuroscience, epistemology, economics, and a score of other disciplines, one common human error is to act as if we know what we should measure, and that what we measure is what matters. But what we value doesn’t even always have a metric. And even reasonable proxies can distort our understanding of and behavior in the world we want to navigate. Even carefully collected biometric data can occlude the other factors that determine health, or can oversimplify a nuanced conversation on the plural and contextual dimensions of health, transforming goals like functional fitness into something easier to quantify but far less useful. This philosophical conundrum magnifies when we consider governance at scales beyond those at which Homo sapiens evolved to grasp intuitively: What should we count to wisely operate a nation-state? How do we practice social science in a way that can inform new, smarter species of   political economy? And how can we escape the seductive but false clarity of systems that rain information but do not enhance collective wisdom?Welcome to COMPLEXITY, the official podcast of the Santa Fe Institute. I’m your host, Michael Garfield, and every other week we’ll bring you with us for far-ranging conversations with our worldwide network of rigorous researchers developing new frameworks to explain the deepest mysteries of the universe.This week on the show we talk to SFI External Professor Paul Smaldino at UC Merced and University of Utah Professor of Philosophy  C. Thi Nguyen. In this episode we talk about   value capture and legibility, viewpoint diversity, issues that plague big governments, and expert identification problems…and map the challenges “ahead of us” as SFI continues as the hub of a five-year international research collaboration into emergent political economies. (Find links to all previous episodes in this sub-series in the notes below.)Be sure to check out our extensive show notes with links to all our references at complexity.simplecast.com. If you value our research and communication efforts, please subscribe, rate and review us at Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and consider making a donation — or finding other ways to engage with us — at santafe.edu/engage.If you’d like some HD virtual backgrounds of the SFI campus to use on video calls and a chance to win a signed copy of one of our books from the SFI Press, help us improve our science communication by completing a survey about our various scicomm channels. Thanks for your time!Lastly, we have a bevy of summer programs coming up! Join us June 19-23 for Collective Intelligence: Foundations + Radical Ideas, a first-ever event open to both academics and professionals, with sessions on adaptive matter, animal groups, brains, AI, teams, and more.  Space is limited!  The application deadline has been extended to March 1st.OR apply to the Graduate Workshop on Complexity in Social Science.OR the Complex ity GAINS UK program for PhD students.(OR check our open listings for a staff or research job!)Join our Facebook discussion group to meet like minds and talk about each episode.Podcast theme music by Mitch Mignano.Follow us on social media:Twitter • YouTube • Facebook • Instagram • LinkedInMentioned & Related Links:Transparency Is Surveillanceby C. Thi NguyenThe Seductions of Clarityby C. Thi NguyenThe Natural Selection of Bad Scienceby Paul Smaldino and Richard McElreathMaintaining transient diversity is a general principle for improving collective problem solvingby Paul Smaldino, Cody Moser, Alejandro Pérez Velilla, Mikkel WerlingThe Division of Cognitive Laborby Philip KitcherThe Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in The Natural Sciencesby Eugene WignerOn Crashing The Barrier of Meaning in A.I.by Melanie MitchellSeeing Like A Stateby James C. ScottJim RuttSlowed Canonical Progress in Large Fields of Scienceby Johan Chu and James EvansThe Coming Battle for the COVID-19 Narrativeby Wendy Carlin and Samuel BowlesPeter TurchinIn The Country of The Blindby Michael Flynn82 - David Krakauer on Emergent Political Economies and A Science of Possibility (EPE 01)83 - Eric Beinhocker & Diane Coyle on Rethinking Economics for A Sustainable & Prosperous World (EPE 02)84 - Ricardo Hausmann & J. Doyne Farmer on Evolving Technologies & Market Ecologies (EPE 03)91 - Steven Teles & Rajiv Sethi on Jailbreaking The Captured Economy (EPE 04)97 - Glen Weyl & Cris Moore on Plurality, Governance, and Decentralized Society (EPE 05)

Associate philosophy professor C. Thi Nguyen discusses how games can shape our understanding of trust, collaboration, and new realities. They explore the timeless and transcendent nature of games, role-playing in video and board games, racial bias in gaming, and the complexities of value systems.

C. Thi Nguyen, expert in games and agency as art, discusses the unique value of games as an art form. He explores the motivational structure of playing games and how they allow us to experience the beauty of struggle. Nguyen also highlights games as a technology for communicating and transmitting forms of agency. The podcast delves into the intersection of games and aesthetics, the role of framing in game design, and the tension between transparency and trust in expertise. It concludes with a discussion on the tension between metrics and expertise in personal and public life.

Games are everywhere, but why exactly do we play them? It seems counterintuitive, to artificially invent goals and obstacles just so we can struggle to achieve them. (And in some games, like Twister, the fun is in losing, even though you’re supposed to try to win.) C. Thi Nguyen is a philosopher who has developed a theory of games as an art form whose medium is agency. Within each game, we have defined goals, powers, and choices, and by playing different games we can experiment with different forms of agency. A dark side of this idea is to be found in “gamification” — turning ordinary-life activities into a game. Games give us clarity of values, and that clarity can be seductive but misleading, leading people to turn to conspiracy theories about the real world.Support Mindscape on Patreon.C. Thi Nguyen received his Ph.D. in philosophy from the University of California, Los Angeles. He is currently associate professor of Philosophy at the University of Utah. He has written public philosophy for venues such as Aeon and The New York Times, and is an editor of the aesthetics blog Aesthetics for Birds. He was the recipient of the 2020 Article Prize from the American Philosophical Association. His recent book is Games: Agency as Art.Web sitePhilPeople profileGoogle Scholar publicationsTwitterSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

C. Thi Nguyen, Associate Professor of Philosophy, discusses losing control of values, tradeoffs of legibility and simplification, risks of gamification, and the influence of technology on rationality and agency. Topics include political value choices in ML, heuristics in decision-making, epistemic arms races, and the impact of classification systems on data perception.