The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk 647: Tim Ferriss - Chasing Your Curiosity, Internal vs External Scoreboards, Effectiveness over Efficiency, Winning Even if You Fail, Fame's Hidden Costs, & The Mount Rushmore of Podcasting
In this engaging discussion, Tim Ferriss, bestselling author and influential podcaster, shares his insights on nurturing curiosity and the profound impact of upbringing. He explores the balance between internal and external success measures and emphasizes the value of viewing failures as learning opportunities. Tim also delves into the creation of his card game, COYOTE, and its role in fostering real-world connections. Additionally, he reflects on the hidden costs of fame and the importance of joy amidst seriousness in life.
01:21:52
Mother's Role in Curiosity
- Tim Ferriss' mother fostered his curiosity through a "books are always in budget" policy despite tight finances.
- She arranged unique experiences like meeting Frank Mundus and crab fishing with chicken bones to fuel his interests.
Risks of Taking Yourself Seriously
- Taking yourself too seriously can create a recursive feedback loop that leads to burnout.
- Embracing play, laughter, and fiction can help illuminate life's absurdities and prevent taking life too seriously.
Effectiveness Over Efficiency
- Prioritize effectiveness over efficiency by doing the right things first, not just doing things well.
- Schedule recovery phases or "deloading" to maintain long-term sustainability and energy.
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Intro
00:00 • 2min
Nurturing Curiosity and Life Lessons
02:01 • 18min
Balancing Internal and External Scorecards
19:34 • 14min
Creating Connections: The Game of Coyote
33:22 • 27min
Navigating Uncertainty: Embracing Experimentation
01:00:48 • 16min
The Balance of Joy and Seriousness in Life
01:17:11 • 2min
Embracing Learning Through Curiosity and Surrounding Oneself with Excellence
01:18:48 • 3min
#737
• Mentioned in 29 episodes
TRIBE OF MENTORS
Tim Ferriss
In 'Tribe of Mentors', Tim Ferriss collects and shares deep, meaningful, and life-changing tips and hacks from a diverse group of mentors.
These mentors include iconic entrepreneurs, elite athletes, artists, and billionaire investors.
The book is structured around a set of 11 questions that Ferriss asked these mentors, covering topics such as morning routines, overcoming failure, achieving work-life balance, and reassessing priorities.
It offers a rich tapestry of experiences and viewpoints, ensuring there is something valuable for readers from all walks of life.
#339
• Mentioned in 50 episodes
The 4-Hour Chef
The Simple Path to Cooking Like a Pro, Learning Anything, and Living the Good Life
Tim Ferriss
In 'The 4-Hour Chef', Tim Ferriss uses cooking as a vehicle to teach 'meta-learning', a step-by-step process for mastering any skill quickly.
The book is divided into five sections: Meta-Learning, The Domestic, The Wild, The Scientist, and The Professional.
It includes tips and stories from world-class chefs, athletes, and other experts, and focuses on overcoming common obstacles in learning and cooking.
The book aims to make readers self-sufficient in the kitchen and in life, applying principles of failure points and margin of safety to ensure success.
#290
• Mentioned in 55 episodes
Tools of Titans
The Tactics, Routines, and Habits of Billionaires, Icons, and World-Class Performers
Ryan Holiday
Mike Del Ponte
Therese Plummer
Ray Porter
Tim Ferriss
Kaleo Griffith
Kevin Rose
Jocko Willink
Tim Kreider
Tools of Titans is a comprehensive guide to achieving peak performance and personal transformation.
The book is divided into three main sections: Healthy, Wealthy, and Wise.
It features insights and strategies from over 200 interviews with successful individuals such as Arnold Schwarzenegger, Ariana Huffington, and many others.
Ferriss highlights common patterns among these high achievers, including daily meditation, disciplined routines, and the ability to turn weaknesses into strengths.
The book is designed to be a resource for continuous learning and improvement, providing actionable advice and tools for readers to enhance their health, wealth, and wisdom.
#3268
• Mentioned in 9 episodes
Zorba the Greek
Nikos Kazantzakis
The novel, originally titled 'Víos kai Politeía tou Aléxē Zorbá' (Life and Times of Alexis Zorbas), tells the story of a young Greek intellectual who, feeling stifled by his bookish life, hires the charismatic and experienced Alexis Zorba to manage a lignite mine in Crete.
The narrative revolves around the conversations and interactions between Zorba and the young 'boss', highlighting their vastly different approaches to life.
Zorba, with his passionate and practical worldview, challenges the boss's more passive and aesthetically inclined nature.
The book delves into themes such as the meaning of life, religion, women, and the human condition, set against the backdrop of rural Cretan life and the characters' personal struggles and adventures.
#7687
• Mentioned in 4 episodes
Ozymandias
John Ott
Percy Bysshe Shelley
Published in 1818, 'Ozymandias' is one of Shelley's most famous short works.
The poem describes a ruined statue of Ozymandias (Ramses II of Egypt) with the inscription 'Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
' and contrasts the grandeur of the past with the desolation of the present.
The illustrated version by John Ott Jr. includes unique illustrations that breathe new life into the poem.
#21
• Mentioned in 235 episodes
The Anxious Generation
Jonathan Haidt
In 'The Anxious Generation', Jonathan Haidt examines the sudden decline in the mental health of adolescents starting in the early 2010s.
He attributes this decline to the shift from a 'play-based childhood' to a 'phone-based childhood', highlighting mechanisms such as sleep deprivation, attention fragmentation, addiction, loneliness, social contagion, and perfectionism that interfere with children’s social and neurological development.
Haidt proposes four simple rules to address this issue: no smartphones before high school, no social media before age 16, phone-free schools, and more opportunities for independence, free play, and responsibility.
The book offers a clear call to action for parents, teachers, schools, tech companies, and governments to restore a more humane childhood and end the epidemic of mental illness among youth.
#11
• Mentioned in 312 episodes
The 4 Hour Workweek
Tim Ferriss
In 'The 4-Hour Workweek', Timothy Ferriss presents a step-by-step guide to 'lifestyle design', encouraging readers to question the traditional notion of retirement and instead create a lifestyle that prioritizes freedom, adventure, and personal growth.
The book teaches how to outsource life tasks, automate income, and eliminate unnecessary work using principles like the 80/20 rule and Parkinson’s Law. Ferriss shares his personal journey from a corporate workaholic to a location-independent entrepreneur and provides practical tips and case studies to help readers achieve similar results.
The book emphasizes the importance of focusing on high-value activities, taking 'mini-retirements', and living life to the fullest in the present rather than deferring enjoyment until retirement.
#872
• Mentioned in 26 episodes
The Effective Executive
The Definitive Guide to Getting the Right Things Done
Peter Drucker
In this book, Peter F. Drucker identifies five essential practices for business effectiveness: managing time, choosing what to contribute to the organization, knowing where and how to mobilize strength for best effect, setting the right priorities, and making effective decisions.
Drucker emphasizes that these habits can and must be learned to achieve true effectiveness in an executive role.
The book draws from his extensive experience in organizational management and consulting, offering insights that remain relevant despite the passage of time since its original publication in 1967.
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My Guest: Tim Ferriss is the author of five #1 New York Times bestsellers (including The 4-Hour Work Week, Tools of Titans, and Tribe of Mentors). His podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show, has been listened to more than a billion times. Tim was an early investor in Uber, Shopify, Twitter, Alibaba, and many others. He’s the creator of a new card game called COYOTE.
- Decision making - How can I win even if I lose? He viewed angel investing like his personal MBA. Instead of paying for business school, he invested in companies and learned about business by working with actual businesses. He didn’t expect to make money on those investments. That was just a bonus. Think, “How can I win even if I lose?” Tim won with those investments, regardless of whether he made money or not on them.
- Key Takeaways and Learnings:
- Parents Who Foster Curiosity – Tim's mother created a "books are always in budget" policy despite tight finances. Used remainder tables at bookstores to expose him to random, off-menu knowledge that sparked lifelong curiosity about unconventional topics.
- Curiosity-Driven Exploration – When Tim showed interest in marine biology, his mom found Frank Mundus (inspiration for Jaws character), arranged a meeting, and created low-cost adventures like crab fishing with chicken bones to fuel his interests.
- The Mask You Wear Becomes You – "Be very careful what you pretend to be" - spent years presenting as overly serious to be taken seriously, which created a recursive feedback loop. Now embraces more play and laughter to avoid burnout.
- Fiction and Poetry as Life Teachers – Shifted from non-fiction purist to reading more fiction/poetry. Recommends "Ozymandias" as a monthly reminder that all achievements fade: "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings. Look on my works, ye mighty and despair. Nothing beside remains."
- Internal vs External Scorecards – Money and fame amplify whatever's underneath, like alcohol or power. "If you have certain insecurities or paranoia, all of those are going to be amplified. If you're generous, that's also gonna be the case."
- Effectiveness Over Efficiency – "Effectiveness is doing the right things, efficiency is doing things well, but doing something well does not make it important." Focus on choosing the right targets rather than optimizing everything.
- Strategic Slack in Systems – Moved away from filling every 10 minutes. Takes 10 minutes each morning with coffee to read fiction/poetry/meditate to prove "you do not have to front flip out of bed and land in a full sprint."
- How to Win Even If You Fail – Project selection framework: "How can I win even if I fail?" Focus on relationships built and skills acquired that transfer beyond the project if external metrics don't pan out.
- The COYOTE Game Philosophy – Created a card game to address the social isolation epidemic. "People don't have a shortage of productivity advice... It's taking some steam out of the system and actually enjoying what you have worked so hard for."
- Social Bonds as Foundation – "It's the relationships, stupid." Countries rated happiest fundamentally come down to social ties. In-person social interactions are down 70% in certain age groups over the last 10 years.
- Podcasting as Relationship Building – "My goal is not to have 100% of my audience like any episode... but I do want 10% of my audience to love each episode." The personal is the most universal.
- Fame's Hidden Costs – With the audience size of major cities comes proportional number of unstable people. "If you have a small village, you're gonna have one village idiot... "How many crazy people are there in New York City?"
- "Be suspicious of what you want."
- Tim read me the poem by Ozymandias by Percy Bysshe Shelley
- "If more information were the answer, we'd all be billionaires with six-pack abs."
- Be a talent scout - You don’t need a huge network. A+ players in one area know A+ players in others. Seek out people who are great at what they do, regardless of what they do. Study what makes them great at that thing. Then you’ll probably meet other A+ players. Also, it’s on us to strive to be an A+ player at what we do. Be so good at whatever your thing is that other A+ players want to meet you. Tim has been very good at that.
- Quotes:
- "Be very careful what you pretend to be... the mask you wear often becomes the person you are."
- "Be suspicious of what you want." (Rumi)
- "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings. Look on my works, ye mighty and despair. Nothing beside remains."
- "Effectiveness is doing the right things, efficiency is doing things well, but doing something well does not make it important."
- "How can I win even if I fail?"
- "The personal is the most universal."
- "It's the relationships, stupid."
- "If more information were the answer, then we'd all be billionaires with six-pack abs."
- "Follow your curiosity and obsessions with great rigor. Do that and I like your chances."
- "The superheroes you have in your mind are nearly all walking flaws who've maximized one or two strengths."
- "You don't need a huge network... the super A+ players tend to know other A+ players."
- Life Lessons:
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- Cultivate Childhood Curiosity – Create "always yes" policies for learning and exploration. Use constraints (like remainder tables) to discover unexpected interests.
- Embrace Strategic Experimentation – View life as a series of 6-12-month projects with 2-4 week experiments. Design studies to get feedback, not just chase outcomes.
- Balance Seriousness with Play – Taking yourself too seriously leads to burnout. Build in recovery phases and "deloading" periods across all life areas.
- Choose Projects for Learning – Select opportunities based on relationships you'll build and skills you'll acquire, not just potential external rewards.
- Start With Personal Pain Points – Best opportunities often come from solving problems you personally understand deeply, then expanding adjacent.
- Build Safety Nets First – Like Arnold's real estate, before acting, create financial/emotional cushions that allow you to say no and wait for right opportunities.
- Quality Over Quantity in Relationships – Better to have deep connections with fewer people than surface-level networks with many.
- Morning Rituals Create Calm – Prove to your nervous system you don't have to be frantic by taking 10 minutes each morning for something peaceful.
- Scratch Your Own Itch – Whether in podcasting, investing, or any pursuit, follow genuine personal interest for sustainable energy and authentic results.
- Prepare for Success Taxes – Fame and wealth amplify existing traits. Address insecurities and develop strong boundaries before scaling.
- Value Present Experience – Focus on daily energy in/out rather than constantly deferring happiness to future achievements.
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- Apply to be part of my next Learning Leader Circle.
Time Stamps
00:38 Tim's Childhood and Parental Influence
01:15 Curiosity and Lifelong Learning
02:56 Marine Biology and Childhood Adventures
07:06 Influence of Mentors and Teaching Aspirations
08:45 Thoughts on Parenthood and Relationships
12:11 Balancing Seriousness and Humor
25:15 Effectiveness vs. Efficiency
30:50 Creating Slack and Self-Care
34:41 The Importance of Social Bonds and Play
41:07 Meeting a Game-Changing Partner
42:13 The Importance of Analog Social Interaction
42:55 Podcasting: A Platform for Deep Connections
43:30 The Evolution and Challenges of Podcasting
43:47 The Art of Interviewing
49:18 Navigating Fame and Public Exposure
01:04:26 The Philosophy of Risk and Experimentation
01:10:27 Spotting Talent and Following Curiosity
01:20:37 Closing Thoughts and Future Endeavors