In this episode, John Vervaeke, Gregg Henriques, Michael Levin, and Justin McSweeny come together to discuss the complexities of consciousness, intelligence, and the human condition. The conversation balances between imagination and empirical evidence, introducing cognitive light cones to frame goal-directed behavior. They explore recursive relevance realization, predictive processing, and mutual modeling to show how our sense of self and our interaction with the world are connected. Addressing the meaning crisis, the discussion acknowledges various forms of intelligence and emphasizes the transformative nature of human experiences. This episode highlights the importance of rethinking how we see ourselves, the ongoing process of self-reconstruction, and the value of interdisciplinary dialogue in deepening our understanding of human existence and consciousness.
Bios and Links:
Gregg Henriques, Ph.D., is a professor of graduate psychology at James Madison University and founder of the Unified Theory of Knowledge. Discover more about Henriques through his website, and follow his insights on Twitter at @henriqgx.
Michael Levin, Ph.D., is a distinguished professor and director of the Allen Discovery Center at Tufts University, specializing in developmental biology and biophysics. His pioneering research explores the bioelectric patterns that guide growth and form. Explore Levin's groundbreaking work on his lab's website, and follow his latest discoveries on Twitter at @drmichaellevin.
Justin McSweeny is the visionary host of the Idea Cast Interview Series, where he facilitates thought-provoking discussions on a wide array of intellectual topics. Access episodes on his YouTube channel, and connect with him for updates on LinkedIn.
Embark on a journey with us to tackle the Meaning Crisis by joining our exclusive Patreon group: John Vervaeke | Responding to The Meaning Crisis with The Vervaeke Foundation.
Connect with John: Website | YouTube | Patreon | X
Resources:
The Vervaeke Foundation
Awaken to Meaning
Transcendent Naturalism Ep. 1 | Dr. John Vervaeke and Gregg Henriques
The Elusive I - Part 1 - The Cognitive Science Show
Levin, M. (2019). The Computational Boundary of a “Self”: Developmental Bioelectricity Drives Multicellularity and Scale-Free Cognition. Frontiers in Psychology, 10. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.02688
Vervaeke, J., Lillicrap, T. P., & Richards, B. A. (2009, October 26). Relevance Realization and the Emerging Framework in Cognitive Science. Journal of Logic and Computation. https://doi.org/10.1093/logcom/exp067
Transformative Experience - L. A. Paul
Quotes:
"What biology does is assumes that you can't just learn the structure of the past. You have to make problem-solving agents." - Michael Levin [00:39:10]
"When you're modeling the world, you're always, to some degree, modeling yourself, and as you're modeling yourself, you're always, to some degree, modeling the world. The two are interpenetrating." - John Vervaeke [00:16:30]
Glossary of Terms:
Cognitive Light Cone: A conceptual framework used to describe the spatial and temporal limits of an entity's cognition, determining what it can perceive and influence.
Relational Frame Theory (RFT): A theory of human language and cognition that focuses on how humans learn and how language interacts with cognition.
Chapters:
00:00:00 - Introduction and the Balance Between Imaginal and Empirical
00:02:00 - Understanding Complexification through Layered Ontology
00:04:30 - The Evolution of Goal-Directed Behavior and Cognitive Light Cones
00:12:30 - Recursive Relevance, Predictive Processing, and Mutual Modeling
00:30:00 - Addressing the Crisis of Meaning through Diverse Intelligence
00:38:00 - Transformative Experiences: Reconstructing Self and Reality
00:52:00 - Rationality, Dialogical Self, and Evolutionary Perspectives
01:16:00 - Conclusion: Interdisciplinary Dialogue and Final Reflections
Dr. John Vervaeke 
