The Chuck ToddCast

Interview only w/ Caleb Gayle - Black Moses: The Failed Dream Of Building A “Black State” In Oklahoma

Sep 22, 2025
Caleb Gayle, a journalist and historian from Oklahoma, dives into the untold story of Edward McCabe, dubbed 'Black Moses,' who dreamed of establishing a 'Black state' in Oklahoma. He discusses McCabe's political maneuvering and recruitment of Black settlers during Reconstruction, alongside the challenges posed by Jim Crow laws. Gayle sheds light on the tensions between northern Black elites and freed southern Blacks, and the impact of Oklahoma's distorted history. He connects these themes to today's political climate and envisions future narratives on race and ambition.
Ask episode
AI Snips
Chapters
Books
Transcript
Episode notes
ANECDOTE

Discovery Sparked By A Roadside Sign

  • Caleb Gayle first saw Edward McCabe's name on a Guthrie sign and dismissed it, then connected him to letters while researching Black citizens in Indigenous nations.
  • That discovery turned into a five-year obsession that became his book Black Moses.
INSIGHT

Multiple Routes Into Oklahoma

  • Many Black people in Oklahoma arrived via multiple routes: adoption into tribes, escape, and westward migration like the Exodusters to Kansas.
  • Those varied paths created unique Black-Indigenous relationships that shaped settlement patterns.
ANECDOTE

From Wall Street Clerk To Western Politician

  • Edward McCabe arrived from the North, worked in New York and Chicago, then moved West to Nicodemus, Kansas and became the first Black statewide elected official in the old West.
  • His Kansas success became the launchpad for political ambitions in Oklahoma territory.
Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode
Get the app