Apple News In Conversation The little-known official quietly driving Trump’s second term
Oct 30, 2025
Andy Kroll, an investigative reporter known for his in-depth profiles, joins to discuss Russell Vought’s substantial influence in shaping Trump’s second term. He reveals Vought's strategy to weaken federal agencies and believes in a dismantling of what he terms a 'deep state.' Kroll explains Vought's Christian nationalist ideology and the implications for policy, as well as his role as 'shadow president' through budget control. The conversation also touches on Vought's preparations for a potential second Trump administration and his ultimate goal of permanently altering government structure.
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Deliberate Strategy To Undermine Federal Staff
- Russell Vought openly seeks to 'traumatize' federal workers to weaken the bureaucracy.
- Andy Kroll found the recording crucial to understanding Vought's intent and pursued further reporting.
Deep-State Framing Drives Policy Actions
- Vought views a 'deep state' bureaucracy as having subverted democracy and needing to be dismantled.
- His actions in office—mass firings and agency weakening—translate that worldview into policy.
Religious Nationalism Meets Bureaucratic Know-How
- Vought self-identifies as a Christian nationalist and ties governance to Judeo-Christian principles.
- He pairs religious nationalism with technical mastery of government levers to reshape agencies.