The Gray Area with Sean Illing

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What a slow civil war looks like

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Apr 24, 2023

Guest

Jeff Sharlet

Reporter Jeff Sharlet, author of "The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War," delves into the current political climate in America. He discusses the implications of January 6th, particularly the narrative surrounding Ashli Babbitt's death. Sharlet critiques the blending of fringe beliefs with politics, likening political rallies to religious experiences. He explores the growing division in society, fueled by anger and perceived injustices, and emphasizes the urgent need for dialogue amid escalating tensions across the nation.

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INSIGHT

The Trumpocene

America is in the "Trumpocene," an era shaped by Trump's influence.
This goes beyond Trump himself, impacting political discourse and even climate action.

insights

INSIGHT

Shift in American Politics

Trump's rise normalized violence and personality cults in American politics.
This shift marks a departure from traditional American values and norms.

question_answer

ANECDOTE

Ashli Babbitt's Martyrdom

Ashli Babbitt, killed on January 6th, became a martyr figure.
Her death, mythologized, is a key moment in the current political climate.

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America's Slow Civil War

01:52 • 16min

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The Martyrdom and Mythology of January 6th

17:42 • 3min

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The Mythology of a Martyr: Exploring Ashley Babbitt's Narrative

21:11 • 5min

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Politics, Belief, and the Rise of Fascism

26:40 • 13min

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A Nation on Edge: Uncovering Anger and Readiness for Conflict

39:58 • 3min

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Cultural Divides and Civil Discord

42:36 • 15min

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#10636

• Mentioned in 3 episodes

The Family Roe

An American Story

Joshua Prager

Joshua Prager's 'The Family Roe' offers a comprehensive look at Norma McCorvey's life, from her early days as a sex worker in Dallas to her dealings with feminist and Christian leaders. The book also explores the lives of her three daughters, who were placed for adoption, and delves into the complexities of the Roe v. Wade case, revealing the intricate web of lives affected by it.

#21

• Mentioned in 223 episodes

How to Change

The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be

Katy Milkman

In this ground-breaking book, Katy Milkman reveals a proven path to help readers move from where they are to where they want to be. Drawing on her original research and the work of her world-renowned scientific collaborators, Milkman shares strategic methods for identifying and overcoming common barriers to change, such as impulsivity, procrastination, and forgetfulness. The book offers innovative approaches like 'temptation bundling,' using timely reminders, and creating 'set-it-and-forget-it systems' to make change more achievable. It emphasizes the importance of tailoring solutions to specific roadblocks and using science to stack the deck in favor of successful change.

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• Mentioned in 12 episodes

The Anatomy of Fascism

Robert O. Paxton

In 'The Anatomy of Fascism,' Robert O. Paxton delves into the nature of fascism by examining the actions of fascist movements rather than their ideologies. He surveys how these movements sought followers, formed alliances, and exercised power, highlighting characteristics such as the emphasis on historical grievances, the cult of leadership, mass-based national militant movements, repression of democratic liberties, and the use of violence. Paxton also explores why fascists came to power in some countries but not others and whether fascism could exist outside its early-twentieth-century European context. The book is based on a lifetime of research and provides a comprehensive understanding of fascism, its variations, and its implications for modern history.

#10580

• Mentioned in 3 episodes

The Undertow, Scenes from a Slow Civil War

Jeff Charlotte

#60032

A Brief History of Fascist Lies

Federico Finchelstein

In *A Brief History of Fascist Lies*, Federico Finchelstein explores how fascism uses lies as a tool for political power, integrating them into a distinctive structure of 'truth' that serves its ideological ends. The book provides insights into the relationship between totalitarian regimes and the manipulation of truth, highlighting the historical lineage of contemporary 'post-truth' politics.

Sean Illing is joined by reporter Jeff Sharlet, whose new book The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War takes readers on the ground across America right now, as all kinds of people seem to be preparing for a violent fight with other Americans. They discuss the killing of Ashli Babbitt on Jan. 6 and how the story of her death has evolved, the religious nature of some "fringe" political beliefs, and what life is like living in what Jeff calls "the Trumpocene."

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jeff Sharlet (@JeffSharlet), reporter; author

References:

The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War by Jeff Sharlet (W.W. Norton; 2023)
The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power by Jeff Sharlet (Harper Collins; 2008)
The Anatomy of Fascism by Robert O. Paxton (Vintage; 2005)
A Brief History of Fascist Lies by Federico Finchelstein (University of California; 2020)
"Ashli Babbitt a martyr? Her past tells a more complex story" by Michael Biesecker (AP; Jan. 3, 2022)
"January 6 Was Only the Beginning" by Jeff Sharlet (Vanity Fair; June 22, 2022)
"Man who rested feet on desk in Pelosi's office on Jan. 6 found guilty on 8 counts" by Hannah Rabinowitz and Holms Lybrand (CNN; Jan. 23)
"Marjorie Taylor Greene got into a screaming match with Rep. Cheney over 'Jewish space lasers' comment" by Azmi Haroun (Insider; Oct. 21, 2021)
"If you see an all-black American flag, what does that mean?" by Matt Gregory and Mia Salenetri (WUSA9; Nov. 12, 2021)
"What does the end of Roe mean for IVF?" by Bridgit Bowden (Wisconsin Public Radio; July 6, 2022)
"The Blast That Changed Everything" by Preston Schmitt and Doug Erickson (On Wisconsin magazine; Summer 2020)

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This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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