The Gray Area with Sean Illing

What a slow civil war looks like

Apr 24, 2023

Reporter Jeff Sharlet, author of "The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War," delves into the current political climate in America. He discusses the implications of January 6th, particularly the narrative surrounding Ashli Babbitt's death. Sharlet critiques the blending of fringe beliefs with politics, likening political rallies to religious experiences. He explores the growing division in society, fueled by anger and perceived injustices, and emphasizes the urgent need for dialogue amid escalating tensions across the nation.

56:24

Episode guests

Jeff Sharlet

AI Chapters

Episode notes

Intro

2min

America's Slow Civil War

16min

The Martyrdom and Mythology of January 6th

3min

The Mythology of a Martyr: Exploring Ashley Babbitt's Narrative

5min

Politics, Belief, and the Rise of Fascism

13min

A Nation on Edge: Uncovering Anger and Readiness for Conflict

3min

Cultural Divides and Civil Discord

15min

Sean Illing is joined by reporter Jeff Sharlet, whose new book The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War takes readers on the ground across America right now, as all kinds of people seem to be preparing for a violent fight with other Americans. They discuss the killing of Ashli Babbitt on Jan. 6 and how the story of her death has evolved, the religious nature of some "fringe" political beliefs, and what life is like living in what Jeff calls "the Trumpocene."

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jeff Sharlet (@JeffSharlet), reporter; author

References:

The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War by Jeff Sharlet (W.W. Norton; 2023)
The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power by Jeff Sharlet (Harper Collins; 2008)
The Anatomy of Fascism by Robert O. Paxton (Vintage; 2005)
A Brief History of Fascist Lies by Federico Finchelstein (University of California; 2020)
"Ashli Babbitt a martyr? Her past tells a more complex story" by Michael Biesecker (AP; Jan. 3, 2022)
"January 6 Was Only the Beginning" by Jeff Sharlet (Vanity Fair; June 22, 2022)
"Man who rested feet on desk in Pelosi's office on Jan. 6 found guilty on 8 counts" by Hannah Rabinowitz and Holms Lybrand (CNN; Jan. 23)
"Marjorie Taylor Greene got into a screaming match with Rep. Cheney over 'Jewish space lasers' comment" by Azmi Haroun (Insider; Oct. 21, 2021)
"If you see an all-black American flag, what does that mean?" by Matt Gregory and Mia Salenetri (WUSA9; Nov. 12, 2021)
"What does the end of Roe mean for IVF?" by Bridgit Bowden (Wisconsin Public Radio; July 6, 2022)
"The Blast That Changed Everything" by Preston Schmitt and Doug Erickson (On Wisconsin magazine; Summer 2020)

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This episode was made by:

Producer: Erikk Geannikis
Engineer: Patrick Boyd
Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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