Ascend - The Great Books Podcast Law of Nature: Part Three of Plato's Gorgias with Dr. Gregory McBrayer
Nov 25, 2025
Dr. Gregory McBrayer, an expert in classical political thought and co-host of the New Thinkery podcast, dives into the intense showdown between Socrates and Callicles in Plato's Gorgias. They explore themes of justice, the transformative power of true rhetoric, and the distinction between noble and flattery-focused speech. McBrayer highlights Callicles as Plato's most aggressive character, challenging conventional morality with audacious claims. The discussion even tackles the absurdity of hedonism through vivid examples, revealing a nuanced critique of power dynamics and human nature.
01:21:25
How New Thinkery Started
- The New Thinkery began during COVID as three friends blending high philosophy with juvenile banter.
- The podcast sustained connections and opened academic and public opportunities for its hosts.
Why Teach The Gorgias First
- The Gorgias functions like a compact Republic, probing justice via rhetoric.
- Plato uses a clear 'bad guy' to dramatize and test Socratic defenses of virtue.
Callicles As A Revealing Antagonist
- Callicles is the nastiest character in Plato but still reveals latent moral attachments.
- Socrates' exchanges aim partly to teach Gorgias by exposing consequences of rhetorical education.
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Intro
00:00 • 3min
How New Thinkery Began
02:30 • 3min
Podcast Tone: High Ideas, Low Jokes
05:01 • 2min
Why Great Books Should Be Public
06:57 • 5min
Why Teach the Gorgias
12:04 • 2min
Gorgias, Protagoras and Bad Interlocutors
13:58 • 2min
Is Gorgias Creating Little Tyrants?
16:06 • 2min
Socrates' Pedagogy toward Gorgias
18:32 • 3min
Callicles: Plato's Nastiest Character
21:30 • 2min
Law vs. Nature: Callicles' Claim
23:49 • 2min
Is Callicles a Nihilist?
26:02 • 2min
The One Versus the Many
28:27 • 5min
Callicles' Mixed Disposition
33:04 • 2min
Socrates Uses Callicles' Logic Against Him
35:30 • 2min
Rhetoric vs. Dialectic Distinction
37:26 • 6min
Is Rhetoric Morally Neutral?
43:04 • 2min
Good Rhetoric Exists
45:14 • 3min
Socrates Probes Pleasure as Happiness
47:48 • 3min
The Leaky-Jar and Vulgar Examples
50:34 • 3min
Shame Shows Callicles' Moral Residue
54:01 • 5min
Why Socrates Turns to a Myth
58:33 • 3min
Two Kinds of Rhetoric Defined
01:01:10 • 3min
Pleasure, Intermediate Goods, and the Final Good
01:04:25 • 2min
Socrates as True Politician
01:06:39 • 2min
Reading the Final Myth of Judgment
01:09:06 • 3min
Myth's Power and Limitations
01:11:41 • 3min
Myth as Final Reckoning Against Rhetoric
01:14:44 • 6min
Outro
01:20:59 • 18sec
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People of Plato
Debra Nails
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The Lame Shall Enter First
Flannery O'Connor
Flannery O'Connor's 'The Lame Shall Enter First' explores pride and distorted compassion.
Sheppard, a recreation director, is consumed by his artificial goodwill and fails to recognize his own son's emotional needs.
Norton, a troubled boy with a clubfoot, challenges Sheppard's self-serving charity.
Sheppard's misguided attempts to 'fix' Norton and neglect of his son, Rufus, leads to tragic consequences.
The story delves into themes of pride, spiritual blindness, and the complexity of human relationships.
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the Mino
Plato
'Meno' is a Socratic dialogue primarily concerned with the question of whether virtue can be taught.
Meno initially proposes several definitions of virtue, which Socrates refutes, leading Meno to express his famous paradox: If one doesn't know what virtue is, how can one inquire into it?
Socrates addresses this paradox by introducing the theory of recollection, suggesting that learning is actually remembering what the soul already knows.
The dialogue explores the nature of knowledge, belief, and how true opinions can guide right action.
Ultimately, 'Meno' raises profound questions about epistemology and moral understanding.
#1110
• Mentioned in 28 episodes
Inferno
Dante Alighieri
Inferno is the first part of Dante Alighieri's epic poem, The Divine Comedy.
It describes Dante's journey through the nine concentric circles of Hell, each representing a different level of sin and punishment.
Guided by Virgil, Dante encounters various historical and mythological figures, witnessing their punishments which are symbolic of their sins.
The poem is an allegory of the soul's journey towards God, with Inferno representing the recognition and rejection of sin.
Dante's journey through Hell is also a personal and spiritual exploration, reflecting his own struggles and the political and social issues of his time.
#3716
• Mentioned in 10 episodes
Apology
Plato
Plato's *Apology* is a historical and philosophical account of Socrates' defense at his trial in 399 BCE. Socrates was charged with corrupting the youth and impiety, but instead of apologizing, he defended his actions as a philosopher, emphasizing his commitment to truth and virtue.
The dialogue captures Socrates' fearless reasoning and his reflections on mortality, leading to his eventual sentencing to death by drinking hemlock.
#73681
Protagoras
Benjamin Jowett
Plato
#5046
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Memorabilia
Xenophon
Xenophon's 'Memorabilia' is a collection of anecdotes and dialogues that portray the life and teachings of Socrates.
Written in the 4th century BC, it offers valuable insights into Socratic philosophy and its impact on ancient Greece.
The work presents Socrates as a teacher who used questioning and critical thinking to challenge conventional wisdom and encourage self-examination.
Through vivid accounts of conversations and events, Xenophon captures the essence of Socratic thought and its enduring relevance.
'Memorabilia' remains a significant historical and philosophical text, providing a rich understanding of one of history's most influential thinkers.
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The Bacchae
Euripides
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Clouds
Aristophanes
Aristophanes' "Clouds" is a comedic play that satirizes Socrates and the intellectual movements of his time.
The play presents a caricature of Socrates, portraying him as a sophist who teaches young men to argue fallaciously.
While not a historically accurate portrayal, "Clouds" offers a glimpse into the public perception of Socrates and the intellectual climate of ancient Athens.
The play's humor and satirical elements provide a contrasting perspective to the more serious philosophical works of Plato and Xenophon.
It remains a valuable source for understanding the social and intellectual context of Socrates' life.
#32652
The Art of Rhetoric
Aristotle
In 'The Art of Rhetoric', Aristotle provides a comprehensive guide to the principles of persuasion, focusing on three key elements: logos (logic), pathos (emotion), and ethos (character).
The book is structured into three parts, covering the groundwork of rhetoric, the materials for persuasion, and the formulation and application of rhetoric in various contexts.
Aristotle's work remains influential in understanding human psychology and effective communication.
#4105
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Euthyphro
Plato
Plato's "Euthyphro" is a short but significant dialogue that explores the nature of piety and the relationship between morality and divine will.
The dialogue centers on a conversation between Socrates and Euthyphro, who is prosecuting his own father for murder.
Socrates challenges Euthyphro's definition of piety, leading to a series of attempts to define the concept that ultimately fail.
The dialogue raises the famous Euthyphro dilemma: is something pious because the gods love it, or do the gods love it because it is pious?
This dilemma highlights the tension between divine command theory and the existence of objective moral truths.
"Euthyphro" is a classic example of Socratic questioning and its enduring relevance lies in its exploration of fundamental questions about morality and the nature of the divine.
#8003
• Mentioned in 5 episodes
Crito
Spence, Joseph
In 'Crito,' Plato presents a dialogue between Socrates and his friend Crito, who tries to persuade Socrates to escape from prison.
The dialogue delves into themes of justice, duty, and the moral obligations of citizens towards their state.
Socrates argues that he must obey the laws of Athens, even if they are unjust, because he has benefited from them throughout his life.
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• Mentioned in 3 episodes
Alcibiades
Plato
#168
• Mentioned in 106 episodes
Nicomachean Ethics
Aristotle
The Nicomachean Ethics is Aristotle's most renowned work on ethics, focusing on the science of the good for human life.
The text is divided into ten books and discusses the concept of eudaimonia, often translated as 'happiness' or 'flourishing,' which is achieved through living a virtuous life.
Aristotle argues that eudaimonia is an activity of the soul in accordance with virtue, emphasizing the importance of reason, moral virtues, and the pursuit of excellence.
The work also explores the division of the soul, the role of rationality in human life, and the ultimate goal of human activity, which is to achieve happiness through virtuous actions and a complete life.
#121
• Mentioned in 126 episodes
The Iliad
Homer
The Iliad is an epic poem attributed to Homer, set during the Trojan War. It begins in the ninth year of the war, where a quarrel between King Agamemnon and the warrior Achilles sets off a chain of events.
The poem explores themes of heroism, honor, and fate as it describes the battles and interactions between Greek warriors like Achilles, Diomedes, and Odysseus, and Trojan warriors like Hector and Paris.
The story is interspersed with divine interventions from Greek gods and goddesses, influencing the outcome of the war.
The poem culminates with Achilles' reconciliation with Agamemnon and his subsequent rage against the Trojans, leading to the death of Hector and the eventual funeral rites for Patroclus and Hector.
#75
• Mentioned in 173 episodes
The Odyssey
Homer
The Odyssey, attributed to Homer, is an ancient Greek epic poem that tells the story of Odysseus, king of Ithaca, and his ten-year journey home after the Trojan War. The poem explores Odysseus's encounters with various mythical creatures, divine interventions, and natural challenges.
Upon his return to Ithaca, he must confront the suitors who have been vying for his wife Penelope's hand in marriage.
With the help of his son Telemachus and the goddess Athena, Odysseus devises a plan to defeat the suitors and reclaim his throne.
The poem is a reflection on human nature, loyalty, and the consequences of one's actions, and it remains a crucial component of ancient Greek literature and Western cultural heritage.
#3467
• Mentioned in 11 episodes
Phaedo
Benjamin Jowett
Plató
In this dialogue, Plato presents his metaphysical, psychological, and epistemological views through the conversations of Socrates and his friends on the day of his execution.
The dialogue includes four arguments for the immortality of the soul, discussions on the theory of Forms, and Socrates' account of his final hours.
It is a key work in Plato's middle period, combining profound philosophy with a vivid narrative of Socrates' last day.
#5987
• Mentioned in 7 episodes
Gorgias
Plató
Gorgias es un diálogo de Platón que explora la naturaleza de la retórica, la justicia y el bien.
El diálogo presenta una discusión entre Sócrates y Gorgias, un sofista conocido por su habilidad retórica.
Platón critica la retórica vacía y argumenta que la verdadera justicia se basa en el conocimiento del bien.
Gorgias es un ejemplo de la crítica de Platón a la sofística y su búsqueda de la verdad.
Su impacto radica en su exploración de la retórica y su relación con la justicia.
In the incredible final act of Plato’s Gorgias (481–527), Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Greg McBrayer (Ashland University, New Thinkery podcast) tackle the longest and most brutal confrontation: Socrates versus Callicles, the most shameless, most ambitious, and—as Greg insists—nastiest character in all of Plato.
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Callicles storms in threatening to “whoop Socrates in the mouth” and delivers the most radical claim yet: conventional justice is a sham invented by the weak; by nature the superior should rule, take more, and live without restraint—coining the first recorded “law of nature” in Western literature to mean might makes right (482e–484c).
Socrates flips the argument, forces Callicles to admit intelligence without self-control is mere cleverness, and reduces his unlimited-pleasure principle to absurdity with the leaky-jar and escalating vulgar examples (constant scratching, the catamite, 494–495), provoking Callicles’ outraged “Aren’t you ashamed?”—proof he still clings to the noble (kalon) despite his bravado.
At 503a Socrates finally reveals the two kinds of rhetoric: the shameful, flattering kind that seeks only pleasure, and the true, noble rhetoric that “makes the souls of citizens as good as possible” and strives to say “what is best” whether pleasant or painful—the kind Socrates claims to be the only Athenian practicing (521d).
When Callicles becomes completely recalcitrant, Socrates turns to the audience with the unforgettable myth of naked souls judged by dead judges (523a–527e): every injustice leaves visible scars no rhetoric or power can hide; the cosmos itself is ordered toward justice and will not allow injustice to triumph forever.
Athens is about to execute its only true statesman, but the myth promises that in the final reckoning Socrates’ just soul will shine while his accusers’ scarred souls stand exposed. The dialogue ends not with Callicles’ conversion but with Socrates’ quiet vindication: living justly is ultimately worth it, even in a city that kills its best citizen.
Next week: a short break from Plato for Flannery O’Connor’s “The Lame Shall Enter First.”