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#129 - Why I Don’t Call it “Self-Management” Anymore - with Lisa Gill

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Nov 25, 2025

Guest

Lisa Gill

Lisa Gill, a coach and host of the Leadermorphosis podcast, dives into the world of radically decentralized organizations, sharing insights from her extensive research. She discusses the importance of dynamic hierarchies and enabling structures, arguing that true accountability is rooted in relationships rather than coercion. Lisa warns against the 'green trap' in organizational dynamics and emphasizes the necessity of inner shifts for leaders. Drawing lessons from models like Buurtzorg, she outlines vital systems for decentralization and the integration of care with performance.

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insights

INSIGHT

Decentralization With Conscious Hierarchies

Radically decentralized organizations aim for no coercion while keeping conscious, dynamic hierarchies.
They replace traditional bosses with enabling structures that distribute authority based on expertise.

insights

INSIGHT

Organizations As Hosts, Not Homes

Organizations cannot be homes that fix people's personal trauma; they can act as hosts balancing care and structure.
Mutual accountability matters more than unconditional acceptance.

insights

INSIGHT

Redesign The Five Core Systems

Five core systems must be redesigned: decision-making, information, feedback, resources, and conflict engagement.
Ignoring them lets old, coercive habits re-emerge in decentralized designs.

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State of the self-management movement

02:51 • 3min

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What truly defines self-management

06:13 • 2min

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Balancing structure, hierarchy, and autonomy

08:00 • 4min

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The 'green trap' and organizational limits

11:31 • 7min

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Practical decentralization: five core systems

18:36 • 4min

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Inner shifts for leaders and teams

22:24 • 3min

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Soil, conditions and accountability without coercion

25:10 • 5min

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Integrating care with performance

29:42 • 4min

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Scaling decentralization to community impact

33:42 • 4min

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Design choices and trade-offs in units

37:55 • 6min

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Practical practices and confirmations

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Karen Tinellius

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Adrienne Maree Brown's "Loving Corrections" offers a framework for navigating conflict and fostering transformative change within communities. The book emphasizes the importance of love and accountability in addressing systemic issues and promoting healing. Brown draws on her experience as a facilitator and activist to provide practical strategies for navigating difficult conversations and building stronger relationships. The book explores the concept of 'emergent strategy,' a flexible and adaptable approach to social change that emphasizes collaboration and collective action. It encourages readers to embrace vulnerability and engage in honest dialogue to create more just and equitable societies.

Lisa Gill - a coach, facilitator, and host of the acclaimed Leadermorphosis podcast - joins us to explore the evolving world of self-managing organisations.
Drawing on over a decade of experience and examples from companies like Buurtzorg and her own work at TUFF Leadership, Lisa speaks about what makes radically decentralised organisations work: dynamic hierarchies, enabling structures, and accountability without coercion.
Drawing on lessons from allied fields such as social justice and disability justice, she emphasises that accountability is a relational practice rather than a top-down mechanism, and that true accountability requires choice, trust, and transparent communication.
This episode is packed with essential insights and practical nuggets that you can take back and reflect on, so don’t miss out.

In this episode, Lisa takes us deep into the realities of implementing self-management and radically decentralised organisations in practice.
Reflecting on the self-management movement's trajectory, she discusses the concept of the "green trap" - a common organisational sticking point - and uses it to emphasise why psychological comfort without sufficient accountability is unsustainable.
She also covers several other core topics for the future of decentralised organisations - like the five organisational systems, the importance of inner shifts, what it means to create environments where people can sit in discomfort, learn, and grow without relying on coercion, and so much more.

Key Highlights
👉 Self-managing organisations thrive on dynamic hierarchies, enabling structures, and distributed decision-making rather than rigid top-down control.
👉 Accountability works best as a relational practice grounded in choice, trust, and transparent communication, not coercion.
👉 True accountability requires freedom: individuals must be able to say no for their yes to be meaningful and fully owned.
👉 Balancing care and performance creates spaces for development where individuals and teams can grow sustainably.
👉 Psychological safety paired with challenge fosters both learning and innovation, avoiding the traps of comfort or anxiety extremes.
👉 Exposure to real consequences - like zero distance to customers - builds responsibility and encourages self-correcting behaviour.
👉 Both market performance and human-centred care can coexist when organisations prioritise autonomy, clarity, and alignment on values.
👉 Commitment-keeping and follow-through are foundational principles for self-managing, high-trust organisations.

Topics /chapters
(00:00) Why I Don’t Call it “Self-Management” Anymore - INTRO
(01:22) Introducing Lisa Gill
(03:19) Introducing Self-Management
(11:41) Radically decentralised organisations and the future of Collaboration
(19:03) Operationalizing Decentralization in Self-Managing organisations
(24:56) Learnings on Self-Reflection from Allied Industries
(30:10) What's the Future of Self-Management?
(38:22) Enabling Ecosystemic Transformation
(44:18) Breadcrumbs and Suggestions

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/gill-lisa

Episode recorded on Oct 17, 25

Find out more about the show and the research at Boundaryless at https://boundaryless.io/resources/podcast/

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Music

Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music

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