Balancing structure, hierarchy, and autonomy

Lisa Gill - a coach, facilitator, and host of the acclaimed Leadermorphosis podcast - joins us to explore the evolving world of self-managing organisations.
Drawing on over a decade of experience and examples from companies like Buurtzorg and her own work at TUFF Leadership, Lisa speaks about what makes radically decentralised organisations work: dynamic hierarchies, enabling structures, and accountability without coercion.
Drawing on lessons from allied fields such as social justice and disability justice, she emphasises that accountability is a relational practice rather than a top-down mechanism, and that true accountability requires choice, trust, and transparent communication.
This episode is packed with essential insights and practical nuggets that you can take back and reflect on, so don’t miss out.

In this episode, Lisa takes us deep into the realities of implementing self-management and radically decentralised organisations in practice.
Reflecting on the self-management movement's trajectory, she discusses the concept of the "green trap" - a common organisational sticking point - and uses it to emphasise why psychological comfort without sufficient accountability is unsustainable.
She also covers several other core topics for the future of decentralised organisations - like the five organisational systems, the importance of inner shifts, what it means to create environments where people can sit in discomfort, learn, and grow without relying on coercion, and so much more.

Key Highlights
👉 Self-managing organisations thrive on dynamic hierarchies, enabling structures, and distributed decision-making rather than rigid top-down control.
👉 Accountability works best as a relational practice grounded in choice, trust, and transparent communication, not coercion.
👉 True accountability requires freedom: individuals must be able to say no for their yes to be meaningful and fully owned.
👉 Balancing care and performance creates spaces for development where individuals and teams can grow sustainably.
👉 Psychological safety paired with challenge fosters both learning and innovation, avoiding the traps of comfort or anxiety extremes.
👉 Exposure to real consequences - like zero distance to customers - builds responsibility and encourages self-correcting behaviour.
👉 Both market performance and human-centred care can coexist when organisations prioritise autonomy, clarity, and alignment on values.
👉 Commitment-keeping and follow-through are foundational principles for self-managing, high-trust organisations.

Topics /chapters
(00:00) Why I Don’t Call it “Self-Management” Anymore - INTRO
(01:22) Introducing Lisa Gill
(03:19) Introducing Self-Management
(11:41) Radically decentralised organisations and the future of Collaboration
(19:03) Operationalizing Decentralization in Self-Managing organisations
(24:56) Learnings on Self-Reflection from Allied Industries
(30:10) What's the Future of Self-Management?
(38:22) Enabling Ecosystemic Transformation
(44:18) Breadcrumbs and Suggestions

Remember that you can always find transcripts and key highlights of the episode on our website: https://www.boundaryless.io/podcast/gill-lisa

Episode recorded on Oct 17, 25

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Music

Music from Liosound / Walter Mobilio. Find his portfolio here: https://blss.io/Podcast-Music