Jeffrey Goldberg, Editor-in-Chief of the Atlantic, talks with Chuck Todd about the toll Trump's indictments take on democracy, the challenges faced by the American judicial system, the potential consequences of ongoing legal proceedings, and the importance of accountability and transparency in the political climate. They also discuss the obstacles and strategies for the Democratic party in upcoming elections, anxiety about Joe Biden's age and potential decline, speculation on potential candidates and actuarial likelihood, the possibility of Trump going to prison in 2024, and the future of television and smart conversation.