Paul Elie, a writer and senior fellow at Georgetown, dives into the fascinating intersection of religion and pop culture. He discusses Martin Scorsese’s complex portrayal of Jesus and the backlash surrounding 'The Last Temptation of Christ.' Elie reflects on Leonard Cohen's spiritual evolution and how his music, especially 'Hallelujah,' resonates with themes of faith. He also examines Bono and U2's shift towards a nuanced spirituality and explores cultural icons like Madonna, showcasing how they navigate sexuality and faith in their artistry.
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Vatican II Influenced Upbringing
Paul Elie grew up in a newly built 1950s Catholic church shaped by Vatican II reforms.
His family background included seminarian relatives, nurturing his deep connection to Catholicism.
insights INSIGHT
Reverence Sparks Religious Writing
Reverence drives Paul Elie's interest in religion and writing.
Early influences like Flannery O’Connor and Thomas Merton blended literary art with faith for him.
insights INSIGHT
Miłosz’s Crypto-Religious Outlook
Czesław Miłosz defined his outlook as crypto-religious, wrestling with how openly to express faith.
This reflects the challenge of expressing religion authentically in secular or hostile environments.
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This book delves into the intellectual and cultural history of late 19th- and early 20th-century America, focusing on the lives and ideas of four key figures: Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., William James, Charles Sanders Peirce, and John Dewey. It explores how these thinkers, associated with the informal 'Metaphysical Club' in Cambridge, Massachusetts, contributed to the development of pragmatism. The book also examines the broader social and historical context, including the impact of the American Civil War and the emergence of new scientific disciplines like statistics and evolutionary biology. Menand's work is praised for its detailed biographical accounts and its insightful analysis of how these thinkers shaped modern American thought.
The captive mind
Czesław Miłosz
Written after his defection from Stalinist Poland in 1951, 'The Captive Mind' is a philosophical and political essay that explores the allure of Stalinism to intellectuals and the mechanisms of totalitarian control. Miłosz uses metaphorical portraits of four Polish writers (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and Delta) to illustrate the universal human phenomena and attitudes towards totalitarianism. The book critiques the philosophical systems of Marxism and Hegelian historical determinism, highlighting the internal longing for harmony and happiness that can lead individuals to submit to such regimes. It also discusses the personal and psychological costs of living under totalitarian rule, including the transformation of 'free minds' into instruments of the state[1][2][4].
Paul is a writer, an editor, and an old friend. He’s a regular contributor to The New Yorker and a senior fellow in Georgetown’s Berkley Center for Religion, Peace, and World Affairs. He’s the author of The Life You Save May Be Your Own and Reinventing Bach, and his new book is The Last Supper: Art, Faith, Sex, and Controversy in the 1980s.
For two clips of our convo — on Martin Scorsese’s extraordinary religious films, and the strikingly resilient Catholicism of Andy Warhol — head to our YouTube page.
Other topics: Paul raised in upstate NY as a child of Vatican II; his great-uncle was the bishop of Burlington who attended the 2nd Council; Thomas Merton and Flannery O’Connor as formative influences; working in publishing with McPhee and Wolfe; Cullen Murphy on the historical Christ; Jesus as tetchy; Czesław Miłosz; Leonard Cohen making it cool to be religious; the row over The Last Temptation of Christ and Scorsese’s response with Silence; Bill Donahue the South Park caricature; Bono and U2; The Smiths; The Velvet Underground; Madonna and her Catholic upbringing; “Like A Prayer” and “Papa Don’t Preach”; her campaign for condom use; when I accidentally met her at a party; Camille Paglia; Warhol the iconographer; his near-death experience that led to churchgoing; Robert Mapplethorpe; S&M culture in NYC; Andres Serrano’s “Piss Christ”; Jesse Helms’ crusade against the NEA; Sinead O'Connor’s refusal to get an abortion; tearing up the JP II photo on SNL; the sex-abuse crisis; Cardinal O’Connor; the AIDS crisis; ACT-UP’s antics at St. Patrick’s Cathedral; the AIDS quilt as a cathedral; and Paul’s gobsmacking omission of the Pet Shop Boys.
Coming up: Edward Luce on the war with Iran, Walter Isaacson on Ben Franklin, Tara Zahra on the revolt against globalization after WWI, Thomas Mallon on the AIDS crisis, and Johann Hari turning the tables to interview me. (NS Lyons indefinitely postponed a pod appearance — and his own substack — because he just accepted an appointment at the State Department; and the Arthur Brooks pod is postponed because of calendar conflicts.) Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.
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