The Peter Attia Drive #65 - Rick Doblin, Ph.D.: MDMA— the creation, scheduling, toxicity, therapeutic use, and changing public opinion of what is possibly the single most important synthetic molecule ever created by our species
Rick Doblin, founder of MAPS, shares his groundbreaking insights on MDMA, revealing its potential to revolutionize PTSD treatment. He dives into the molecule's history, the obstacles leading to its criminalization, and his passionate advocacy for its therapeutic use. The conversation dissects myths surrounding MDMA's safety and touches on the intricacies of current FDA trials for MDMA therapy. With compelling stories and a vision for a compassionate future, this dialogue underscores the importance of reevaluating drug classifications to embrace psychedelic healing.
03:00:56
Doblin's Psychedelic Journey
- In 1972, Rick Doblin sought guidance for integrating powerful psychedelic experiences.
- Reading Stan Grof's book on LSD showed him the potential of combining science, spirituality, and therapy.
First Encounter with MDMA
- In 1982, Rick Doblin learned about MDMA from Debbie Harlow at Esalen.
- He initially underestimated MDMA, thinking it less profound than LSD due to its subtle effects.
Classifying MDMA
- MDMA is a psychedelic, but not a classic one like LSD.
- Terms like "empathogen" and "intactogen" arose to distinguish MDMA in legal battles.
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Intro
00:00 • 4min
The Journey of MDMA: From Creation to Therapeutic Potential
03:46 • 4min
Exploring MDMA: Legal Pathways and Therapeutic Promise
07:38 • 3min
The Evolution of MDMA: From Therapy to Ecstasy
10:41 • 22min
Classifying Controversy: The DEA's Drug Schedule
33:01 • 11min
Healing through MDMA: Therapy and Transformation
43:41 • 19min
Regulatory Complexities of MDMA Rescheduling
01:02:33 • 8min
Bridging the Divide: Empathy and Understanding in Law Enforcement
01:10:40 • 4min
MDMA: Journey Through Research and Regulation
01:14:59 • 18min
The Long Game: Integrity in Therapy Advocacy
01:32:33 • 2min
Safety Considerations for MDMA Therapy
01:34:40 • 2min
MDMA: Therapy vs. Recreation
01:36:41 • 17min
Empathy and Healing: The Role of MDMA in Trauma Recovery
01:53:27 • 2min
Awakening Through Psychedelics
01:55:47 • 15min
The Origins and Evolution of LSD
02:10:56 • 24min
The Psychedelic Experience: Insights and Controversies
02:35:02 • 24min
Gratitude and Closing Thoughts on MDMA's Impact
02:59:07 • 2min
Realms of the Human Unconscious
Stanislav Grof
The Secret Chief Revealed
Myron J. Stolaroff
The Secret Chief Revealed is a transcription of an interview with Leo Zeff, a pioneering psychedelic therapist who conducted much of his work underground after psychedelics were declared illegal. The book provides insights into Zeff's research and practice with psychedelic-assisted therapy, along with contributions from other leaders in the psychedelic movement.
How to Change Your Mind
What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence
Michael Pollan
In this book, Michael Pollan delves into the history of psychedelic drugs, from their rise in the 1960s to their current resurgence in medical research. He combines historical and scientific analysis with personal narratives of his own experiences with psychedelics, such as LSD and psilocybin. The book explores how these substances are being used to treat conditions like depression, addiction, and anxiety, and discusses their potential to revolutionize our understanding of the human mind and consciousness. Pollan's work is a blend of science, memoir, and travel writing, offering a nuanced and engaging look at the therapeutic and spiritual benefits of psychedelics[1][2][4].
The Body Keeps the Score
Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma
Bessel van der Kolk
In this book, Dr. Bessel van der Kolk uses recent scientific advances to show how trauma reshapes both the body and brain, compromising sufferers’ capacities for pleasure, engagement, self-control, and trust. He explores various treatments, including neurofeedback, meditation, sports, drama, and yoga, which activate the brain’s natural neuroplasticity to aid in recovery. The book emphasizes the power of relationships in both causing and healing trauma and offers hope through descriptions of novel approaches to treatment. It is based on Dr. van der Kolk’s own research and that of other leading specialists in the field[1][2][5].
Doors of Perception
Aldous Huxley
In this book, Huxley recounts his first psychedelic experience with mescaline in May 1953. He describes how the drug altered his perception of the world, making ordinary objects and experiences take on profound aesthetic and philosophical significance. Huxley draws on various philosophical and spiritual traditions, including those of William Blake, Meister Eckhart, Plato, and Buddhism, to contextualize his insights. The book challenges conventional views on perception and reality, suggesting that certain substances can reveal deeper aspects of existence that are normally filtered out by the human brain's 'reducing valve'[1][2][4]
The Secret Chief Revealed
Myron J. Stolaroff
The Secret Chief Revealed is a transcription of an interview with Leo Zeff, a pioneering psychedelic therapist who conducted much of his work underground after psychedelics were declared illegal. The book provides insights into Zeff's research and practice with psychedelic-assisted therapy, along with contributions from other leaders in the psychedelic movement.
New Genesis
Robert Muller
In 'New Genesis: Shaping a Global Spirituality', Robert Muller discusses the need for a unified global perspective, emphasizing education, human relations, and cooperation. The book outlines a vision for a new spiritual ideology that transcends national boundaries, promoting peace and harmony on a global scale.
LSD, my problem child
Albert Hofman
In *LSD: My Problem Child*, Albert Hofmann recounts the story of LSD, tracing its path from a promising psychiatric research medicine to a recreational drug that sparked widespread hysteria and prohibition. The book includes his journeys to discover sacred plants related to LSD and interactions with notable figures like Timothy Leary and Aldous Huxley. Hofmann reflects on the potential of mystical experiences, whether induced by LSD or other means, as a key to understanding the divine and promoting global survival.
Shivitti: A Vision
Ka-Tzetnik 135633 (Yehiel De-Nur)
In 'Shivitti: A Vision', Ka-Tzetnik recounts his experiences under LSD treatment, weaving together visions of God and reflections on his time in Auschwitz. The book offers a unique blend of psychological insight and spiritual exploration, delving into the depths of human suffering and redemption. It is a powerful testament to the enduring impact of the Holocaust on survivors and a pioneering work in the use of psychedelic therapy for trauma.
The Interpersonal Diagnosis of Personality
The Interpersonal Diagnosis of Personality
A Functional Theory and Methodology for Personality Evaluation
Timothy Leary
The Interpersonal Diagnosis of Personality, published in 1957, focuses on interpersonal behavior observed in psychotherapeutic settings. It outlines a system for diagnosing personality by analyzing responses and applying mathematical techniques to predict interpersonal interactions. The book was influential in the field of psychology, particularly in the development of transactional analysis.
In this episode, Rick Doblin, founder and executive director of MAPS, discusses MDMA, a molecule that has (at a minimum) revolutionary therapeutic benefits for PTSD, but arguably could have, at the highest order, a lasting impact on humanity’s ability to peacefully coexist. Rick details the history of MDMA, what lead to its unfortunate criminalization, and his lifelong work trying to protect MDMA (and other psychedelics) from criminalization (and his subsequent attempt to decriminalize it). Through his founding of MAPS, Rick has made enormous progress in debunking many of the exaggerated risks being claimed against MDMA (neurotoxicity, memory loss, depression, Parkinson’s, etc.), and is very close to getting FDA approval for a psychotherapy technique using MDMA. Additionally, in this discussion, you will learn about the history of LSD, psilocybin, and other psychedelics and how the combination of the misunderstanding of them with the crackdown on drug use in the 1970s lead to their designation of schedule 1 substances. But it’s important to note that you will also realize from this discussion just how different MDMA is compared to the average psychedelic. We end this discussion with a message of hope: there are going to be many people who are going to wonder what can they do to receive this MDMA therapy. We talk about what those clinical trials look like, what the enrollment looks like, and perhaps more importantly, what a compassionate use license would look like, such that if there are patients who are in need of this therapy (prior to its approval) they can have an understanding of the legal paths to doing just that.
We discuss:
- Discovering MDMA, how Rick learned about it and his first experiences with it [9:45];
- The timeline of MDMA’s evolution, the reinvention in the 1970s, “ecstasy”, the criminalization of MDMA [21:10];
- Explaining the different “schedules” of drugs [30:55];
- Rick’s fight to protect it for therapeutic uses, losing to the DEA despite winning in the court, the scientific community, and the media [38:25];
- The risks involved with taking MDMA [42:30];
- An incredible MDMA-LSD case study: Rick’s story of healing a treatment-resistant PTSD patient in the 1980s [44:45];
- How and why MDMA was declared illegal on an emergency basis going against the judge’s recommendation after hearing Rick’s compelling case (and multiple appeals) in court [57:15];
- Rick’s decision to study politics to affect change from the inside out, and the recent progress being made with the DEA [1:07:00];
- Debunking the exaggerated risks of MDMA (e.g., neurotoxicity) [1:16:30];
- Rick’s unbelievable ability to play the long game [1:28:45];
- Which patients would not be good candidates for MDMA from a safety perspective? [1:34:30];
- How MDMA is different from all other psychedelics, the importance of the setting, and Peter’s experiences with MDMA [1:36:30];
- MDMA studies which lead to the crucial designation as a “breakthrough therapy” [1:40:30];
- How someone with PTSD can get treated now through “expanded access for compassionate use” [1:46:00];
- Rick’s ultimate goal and long term vision for psychedelic clinics [1:50:30];
- Trip of Compassion documentary, and how psychedelics could change the world [1:52:30];
- Rick’s early life: Resisting the draft, his feeling of wanting to change the world, and his profound experiences with LSD and other psychedelics [1:55:30];
- The history of LSD and psilocybin, and the CIA’s interest in psychedelics [2:10:45];
- Timothy Leary and the Good Friday Experiment [2:22:00];
- Rick’s follow up study to the Good Friday Experiment, and his criticism (and praise) of Tim Leary [2:33:50];
- Peter’s experience taking psilocybin [2:44:30];
- The Concord Prison Experiment, and Rick’s follow up study 34 years later [2:47:00]; and
- More.
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