Ep. 232: Bob Elliott on US Recession Odds, Fed Policy and Equity Risks
Sep 6, 2024
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Bob Elliott, co-founder of Unlimited, shares his expertise in alternative investment ETFs and his past at Bridgewater Associates. He discusses the evolution of economic cycles, emphasizing the shift from credit-driven dynamics to income-based ones, and draws parallels to the 1950s and 60s. Bob expresses skepticism about the Fed's interest rate strategies and analyzes the market risks related to the upcoming US elections. He also examines global monetary policies, particularly in Japan and Europe, while addressing implications for investment portfolios.
The current economic cycle relies more on income growth rather than substantial borrowing, indicating greater stability and sustainability in expansion.
Historical parallels suggest that low borrowing and income-driven growth reflect consumer caution similar to the post-World War II era, influencing today's economic dynamics.
Deep dives
Current Business Cycle: Income Driven vs. Credit Driven
The current business cycle is characterized as an income-driven cycle rather than a credit-driven one. Unlike past cycles, such as the one in 2008 where borrowing significantly supported economic activity, individuals today are financing their spending largely through income growth, which is increasing by about 4% to 5% annually. This trend indicates minimal reliance on debt, as household borrowing levels are reminiscent of recession conditions. Consequently, this results in a more stable and sustainable economic expansion since households are not accumulating excessive liabilities that could lead to economic downturns.
Historical Comparisons: 1950s and 60s Economic Expansions
Historical parallels can be drawn between the current economic conditions and those of the 1950s and 60s, particularly in the context of low borrowing and income-driven growth. During this period, following the Great Depression and World War II, people were generally hesitant to incur debt, leading to expansions reliant on income rather than credit. This behavioral shift seems similar to today's environment where consumer caution stems from the lasting impacts of the global financial crisis. The absence of substantial borrowing bodes well for economic stability, suggesting that lessons from these earlier periods may be particularly relevant in understanding current dynamics.
Interest Rate Sensitivity and Economic Impacts
The discussion about interest rates highlights that despite significant increases, the broader economy does not appear overly restricted by current monetary policy. Many sectors that are sensitive to liquidity have indeed faced tightening, but the overall economy remains resilient as many businesses and households are cash flow positive. There is a noted disconnect where the expected impacts of substantial interest rate hikes have not manifested in a broad economic slowdown, countering the typical credit-driven cycle outcomes. This implies that perceptions of tight monetary policy may be overstated, given that activities in most sectors continue to demonstrate growth.
Asset Prices and Recession Signals
Asset prices are currently at elevated levels, coupled with high expectations for growth and aggressive monetary easing, which could lead to a self-reinforcing cycle that might trigger a recession if prices fall. It is posited that a downturn in asset prices would likely precede any significant slowing in spending or investment, as households and businesses adjust their expectations based on their balance sheets. The current valuation in equity markets suggests that if growth expectations are not met, this could lead to asset price declines, igniting a broader economic reaction. Hence, the interconnectedness of asset pricing, economic sentiment, and spending behavior underscores the critical nature of monitoring these parameters.
Bob Elliott is the Co-Founder of Unlimited, which uses machine learning to create index replication ETFs of alternative investments, like hedge funds. Prior to founding Unlimited, Bob was a Senior Investment Executive at Bridgewater Associates, where he served on the Investment Committee (G7) and led Ray Dalio’s personal investment research team for nearly a decade. Bob holds a degree in History and Science from Harvard. In this podcast we discuss income business cycle rather than credit cycle, parallels to 1950s and 1960s, whether Fed policy is restrictive, and much more.