Jim Bianco, Mark Yusko, & Jurrien Timmer on Real Interest Rates, Banking System, and Crypto (Panel at Permissionless 2023)
Sep 18, 2023
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Jim Bianco, Mark Yusko, & Jurrien Timmer discuss whether macro will be a headwind or tailwind for crypto, impact of real interest rates, future of banking system, possibility of a recession in 2024, and final verdict on macro's influence on crypto.
The reversal of favorable macro conditions, such as negative real rates and loose monetary policy, has become a headwind for crypto, impacting its adoption and value.
Unlike traditional assets, crypto assets like Bitcoin are driven by factors such as millennial adoption, technology development, regulatory changes, and monetary policies, providing a degree of independence from traditional markets.
Deep dives
Macro's Impact on Crypto: A Headwind for Adoption
The speakers discuss how the macroeconomic environment has shifted, affecting the adoption and value of cryptocurrencies. Previously, the favorable macro conditions, such as negative real rates and loose monetary policy, supported the growth of cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin. However, the reversal of these conditions, with the Fed tightening monetary policy and real rates turning positive, has become a headwind for crypto. Higher interest rates and competition from traditional financial instruments, offering returns like 5.5%, impact the attractiveness of crypto investments. The current higher real rates and uncertainty regarding the Fed's future actions pose challenges to the adoption and value of crypto in the coming months.
The Intricacies of Crypto and Macro Correlation
The speakers delve into the relationship between crypto assets and macro factors. While stocks, bonds, and traditional assets are influenced by macroeconomic indicators like GDP growth, inflation, and interest rates, crypto assets like Bitcoin are driven by factors such as millennial adoption, technology development, regulatory changes, and monetary policies. Unlike traditional assets, many crypto assets lack equity or debt value tied to cash flows. They are instead traded on the basis of network growth and scarcity. Hence, macro factors do not have a direct correlation with crypto asset values, providing a degree of independence from traditional markets.
The Role of Real Rates and Monetary Policy
The speakers highlight the significance of real rates and monetary policies on the value of cryptocurrencies. Positive real rates, along with the tightening of monetary policy by central banks like the Fed, present challenges for crypto adoption and growth. Real rates, which have moved from negative to positive territory, affect the adoption curve of cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin. However, the speakers note that real rates typically do not escalate much beyond current levels and anticipate that the Fed's tightening cycle may be nearing its end. A potential shift towards further easing could re-accelerate the adoption curve for crypto assets.
The Recession Debate and Economic Outlook
The speakers share their perspectives on the business cycle and potential recession. While there was expectation for a recession last year, the global pandemic and various mitigating factors delayed an official recession declaration. They believe the economy is experiencing nominal growth, but caution that the high competition posed by risk-free interest rates could impede other investments, including the stock market. The Fed's future actions will play a crucial role in determining the direction of interest rates. Although a recession may not be imminent, the speakers express concerns about the resilience and challenges faced by the economy in the face of higher nominal growth and interest rates.
Jack Farley hosts Jim Bianco of Bianco Research, Mark Yusko of Morgan Creek Capital, and Jurrien Timmer, Director of Global Macro at Fidelity Investments, for a panel on whether the near-term macro situation will be a headwind or tailwind for crypto.
Filmed on September 12, 2023, at Blockworks' Permissionless II in Austin, Texas.
Follow Jim Bianco on Twitter https://twitter.com/biancoresearch
Follow Mark Yusko on Twitter https://twitter.com/MarkYusko
Follow Jurrien Timmer on Twitter https://twitter.com/TimmerFidelity
Follow Jack Farley on Twitter https://twitter.com/JackFarley96
Follow Forward Guidance on Twitter https://twitter.com/ForwardGuidance
Follow Blockworks on Twitter https://twitter.com/Blockworks_
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Timecodes:
(00:00) Introduction
(00:51) Is Macro A Headwind Or Tailwind For Crypto?
(23:41) Will Fed Keep Interest Rates "Higher For Longer"?
(28:53) The Banking System
(34:14) Will There Be A Recession In 2024?
(39:58) Final Verdict: Will Macro Be A Headwind Or Tailwind For Crypto (Or Does It Not Matter)?
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