Jeffery Martin, founding director of the Center for the Study of Non-Symbolic Consciousness, discusses enlightenment, fundamental wellbeing, and the locations within it. They explore the effectiveness of the Finders Course and the necessity of control groups in researching enlightenment. The guest also delves into the limitations of surveys in measuring well-being and introduces the Mindease app for stress relief. They discuss different stages of spiritual development and consciousness and the challenges faced by late location finders. The concept of a continuum combining location and depth is introduced. The layers of the mind, fluidity, and integration are explored, along with the trade-off between well-being and functionality. The success rate of a protocol in achieving fundamental well-being is examined, along with methods and challenges in this pursuit.
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Quick takeaways
Fundamental well-being comprises different locations along a continuum, each characterized by specific shifts in perception and experience.
Transitioning between locations is not always linear and can be influenced by changes in emotion, self-referential thoughts, and perception.
The locations of fundamental well-being are determined by clusters of experiences and changes in individuals, with nuances and variations accounted for by the depth dimension.
The protocol to achieve fundamental well-being aims to phase individuals into the state gradually, leading to deeper well-being for those who continue the journey.
Achieving the highest form of well-being may limit practical functionality, so finding a balance between peace and functionality is crucial.
Deep dives
Locations of Fundamental Well-being
Fundamental well-being can be experienced in different locations along a continuum. Location 1 is characterized by a shift in psychological well-being, where a fundamental sense of discontentment changes to a sense that everything is fundamentally okay. Location 2 involves a non-dual perception, where there is a lessening of self-referential thoughts and a sense of non-separation between subject and object. Location 3 is marked by a peak positive experience and a deep sense of union with the divine. Location 4 brings a sense of freedom, but also a loss of emotion, agency, and the sense of the divine.
Transitioning Between Locations
Transitioning from one location to another is not always linear, and individuals may move from one location to another in different orders. Most people transition from location 1 to 2, then to 3. However, some may transition directly to location 4. The movement between locations is influenced by changes in emotion, self-referential thoughts, and perception of self and the world.
Clusters and Layers of Depth
The locations of fundamental well-being are determined by clusters of experiences and changes in individuals, identified through extensive interviews. The y-axis of depth adds another dimension, with different layers of depth within each location. This depth accounts for the individual nuances and variations within the different locations, providing a more precise understanding of an individual's experience.
Challenges and Limitations
Some challenges in understanding and categorizing individuals within the locations include the difficulty of conducting interviews with individuals in later locations due to their diminished self-reflexivity. Additionally, accounting for the y-axis of depth helps address the variations and complexities within each location. While the system is generally accurate, there may be rare cases where individuals do not fit neatly into the identified locations.
Transitioning to Fundamental Well-Being
The podcast episode discusses the protocol designed to help people transition to a state of fundamental well-being. The protocol aims to phase individuals into fundamental well-being rather than providing an instant experience. The speaker explains that while some people drop out after experiencing fundamental well-being early on in the protocol, those who continue the journey may leave the program in a deeper state of well-being. The episode highlights the importance of sticking with the protocol to fully benefit from the process.
Phasing Between Locations
The podcast explores how individuals can phase between different locations within fundamental well-being. It is explained that some people may experience a transient phase between two locations where they don't precisely align with either location. However, over time, as their system settles, they will align with a specific location. The speaker also explains their own experience of fluidity, where their system can be in different locations simultaneously, optimizing their present experience.
Integration and Trade-Off between Peace and Functionality
The episode discusses the trade-off between experiencing peace and functionality in the world. While achieving the highest form of well-being may be desirable, it can limit practical functionality in daily life. The speaker highlights that in their own journey, they have found a balance between peace and functionality, allowing them to fulfill responsibilities while experiencing fundamental well-being. The episode also mentions that finding spiritual teachers who understand and support those in fundamental well-being can be a challenge, as different individuals may have conflicting beliefs on what constitutes well-being.
Findings on Transitioning to Fundamental Well-being
In the podcast episode, the speaker discusses the process of transitioning to fundamental well-being. They highlight that approximately 65% of individuals who were not initially in fundamental well-being reported transitioning after completing a seven-week course. The course utilized various methods, including awareness-based and direct inquiry techniques. The speaker emphasizes the importance of finding the most effective methods for each individual. Additionally, they mention ongoing research exploring the potential benefits of ketamine in conjunction with the protocol.
Tailoring Therapeutic Techniques
The speaker addresses the challenge of integrating different therapeutic techniques and determining the most appropriate approach for each individual. They suggest considering a personalized and causal approach, matching the underlying causes of a person's issues with techniques that target those causes. For example, if someone struggles with self-limiting beliefs, a technique focused on addressing such beliefs may be more effective. They also mention that while cognitive behavioral therapy has the most evidence, the effectiveness of other techniques is still being researched.
Is enlightenment the same as being happy all the time? Or being at peace all the time? Or something else? What is "fundamental wellbeing"? What are the "locations" within fundamental wellbeing? What is "persistent non-symbolic experience"? How effective is the Finders Course? Are control groups necessary when researching enlightenment?
Jeffery Martin is the founding director of the Center for the Study of Non-Symbolic Consciousness (nonsymbolic.org) and a research professor and director of the Transformative Technology Lab (transtechlab.org). Prior to his current affiliation with Stanford University, he was Distinguished University Professor, William James Professor of Consciousness, and Dean of Research at Sofia University. He spent the last 15+ years conducting the largest international study on persistent non-symbolic experience (PNSE) — or as it's publicly known, Fundamental Wellbeing — which includes the types of consciousness commonly known as: persistent awakening, enlightenment, nonduality, the peace that passeth understanding, unitive experience, and hundreds of others. He has authored, co-authored, or co-edited over 20 books and numerous other publications. Learn more about him at his website, drjefferymartin.com.
