The Lawfare Podcast Chatter: Closing the Chatterbox, with Shane Harris and David Priess
Dec 31, 2024
The hosts reflect on three years of exploring national security through diverse lenses. They dive into the intersection of art and intelligence, discussing how culture shapes identity. Critical events like the Snowden leaks are examined, shedding light on public perceptions of intelligence. The conversation spans spy thrillers and the misconceptions surrounding journalism. With heartfelt farewells, they celebrate their journey while considering future projects and the importance of thoughtful storytelling.
01:38:08
Chatter's Conclusion
- Shane Harris and David Priess discuss the end of their podcast, Chatter, after three years.
- They express gratitude for the experience and the opportunity to explore diverse national security topics.
Broader Scope
- Chatter explored national security through various lenses, including culture, art, history, and technology, broadening its scope.
- The podcast prioritized in-depth explorations, enabling longer discussions than typical media formats.
Unexpected Topics
- David Priess recalls an interview with Emily Bass about PEPFAR, highlighting its significance as George W. Bush's greatest achievement.
- This topic, though unexpected, showcased the podcast's ability to uncover less-known national security aspects.
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Intro
00:00 • 2min
Holiday Cheer and Sweater Shenanigans
01:56 • 2min
Reflections on 'Chatter': A Journey's End
03:42 • 25min
Art, Culture, and the Fabric of National Security
28:28 • 2min
Navigating National Security and Misinformation
30:13 • 26min
Cultural Reflections on Vietnam and Patriotism
56:22 • 4min
Exploring Stuxnet and Intelligence Narratives
01:00:43 • 8min
Navigating National Security and Technology
01:09:03 • 17min
Spy Thrillers Dissected
01:25:50 • 4min
Misconceptions in Intelligence and Journalism
01:30:10 • 5min
Reflections on Reading and Life Lessons
01:35:20 • 5min
The Craft: How the Freemasons Made the Modern World
John Dickie
This book provides a comprehensive history of Freemasonry, from its origins in 18th-century Scotland to its global spread and influence.
It discusses the paradoxical nature of Freemasonry, which adheres to Enlightenment values but has also been associated with cruelty and conspiracy theories.
The author, John Dickie, examines the role of Freemasonry in shaping modern society, including its impact on the British Empire, the French Revolution, and the lives of influential historical figures such as George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, and Winston Churchill.
The book also addresses the contradictions between Freemasonry's humanistic ideals and the sometimes brutal actions of its members, as well as its enduring influence and the myths surrounding its secrecy.
Victor in the Rubble and Victor in the Jungle
Spy Novels by Alex Finley
Alex Finley
In 'Victor in the Rubble' (2016), Victor Caro battles global terrorism, his own agency's bureaucracy, and a corrupt senator, while in 'Victor in the Jungle' (2019), he is posted in a fictional African nation and later in a setting similar to Venezuela, where he deals with drug cartels, a corrupt dictator, and internal bureaucratic struggles.
Both novels are characterized by their satirical take on espionage and bureaucracy, highlighting the universal nature of stupidity and ineptitude across different national and ideological contexts.
The Smithsonian history of space exploration
From the Ancient World to the Extraterrestrial Future
Roger D. Launius
This book provides an in-depth, fully illustrated history of global space discovery and exploration.
It covers thousands of years of human endeavors to understand the universe, including the work of ancient civilizations, Renaissance thinkers like Copernicus, Galileo, and Kepler, and the technological breakthroughs of recent decades.
The book also speculates on the future of space exploration, including potential space travel and humanity's possible future as an extraterrestrial species.
A Taste for Poison: Eleven Deadly Molecules and the Killers Who Used Them
Neil Bradbury
In this book, Dr. Neil Bradbury delves into the fascinating and morbid world of poison, detailing how eleven deadly molecules work within the human body.
The book combines popular science, medical history, and true crime stories to illustrate the effects of these poisons.
It includes real-life accounts of murderers and their crimes, as well as the historical and medical contexts of each poison.
Bradbury explains the biological and chemical workings of these substances, highlighting their use in various murders and the ways in which they were detected and prosecuted.
The book also touches on the broader historical and medical significance of these poisons, making it a riveting tour of the intricate systems that keep us alive or lead to death.
The Sisterhood: The Secret History of Women at the CIA
Liza Mundy
The Soviet Space Race With Apollo
Asif A. Siddiqi
This book, initially published by NASA in 2000 as 'Challenge to Apollo,' provides a detailed and definitive English-language history of the Soviet Union's space program.
It covers a period of thirty years, from the capture of German rocket technology after World War II to the collapse of the Soviet moon program in the mid-1970s.
The book is based on previously classified Russian-language sources and numerous interviews with veterans, offering a kaleidoscopic view of the technical, political, and personal history of the major Soviet space programs.
It includes dozens of previously classified photographs and provides the other side of the history of human space flight, putting the Soviet achievements and failures into context with the Apollo program.
A Man of Iron: The Turbulent Life and Improbable Presidency of Grover Cleveland
Troy Senik
This biography by Troy Senik explores the life and presidency of Grover Cleveland, who rose from obscurity as a lawyer to become president in just three years.
The book delves into Cleveland's principled character, his belief in limited government, and his battles against corruption and political machines.
It also covers significant events of his presidency, including the annexation of Hawaii, the gold standard debate, and labor struggles.
Senik's work aims to reintroduce Cleveland into the American historical consciousness, emphasizing his integrity and unique political stance[1][4][5].
The Wrath to Come: Gone with the Wind and the Lies America Tells
Sarah Churchwell
In this book, Sarah Churchwell examines the creation and legacy of 'Gone with the Wind,' both the novel by Margaret Mitchell and the 1939 film adaptation.
Churchwell delves into how the book and film reflect and shape American myths about the Civil War, Reconstruction, and the 'Lost Cause' narrative.
She argues that these works have contributed to the perpetuation of white nationalism, racism, and denialism in American society.
The book also explores the historical context of Mitchell's life, the influence of her nostalgia for the 'good old days' of slavery, and how these elements shaped the racial politics of 'Gone with the Wind.
' Churchwell connects these historical themes to contemporary issues, including the rise of Trumpism, the Black Lives Matter movement, and ongoing political violence in the United States[1][3][5].
Neither Confirm Nor Deny
How the Glomar Mission Shielded the CIA from Transparency
M. Todd Bennett
This book delves into the 1974 CIA mission involving the Hughes Glomar Explorer, a deep-sea mining vessel used as a cover to retrieve a sunken Soviet submarine.
The operation, known as Project Azorian, is explored through recently declassified documents, highlighting the logistics, media fallout, and geopolitical significance.
Bennett argues that the Glomar mission played a pivotal role in the CIA's efforts to maintain secrecy amidst growing demands for transparency and accountability in the 1970s.
The book offers insights into the history of the security state, the politics of intelligence, and the CIA's relationship with the media and the public.
Reagan's War Stories
Reagan's War Stories
A Cold War Presidency
Benjamin Griffin
In this book, Benjamin Griffin explores how Ronald Reagan's worldview and decision-making were shaped by the popular culture he consumed.
Griffin delves into Reagan's childhood reading, including science fiction series like the John Carter books by Edgar Burroughs, western novels by Louis L’Amour, and techno-thrillers by Tom Clancy.
The book highlights how these literary influences, particularly Clancy's works such as 'The Hunt for Red October' and 'Red Storm Rising,' impacted Reagan's policies and interactions with world leaders, including his negotiations with Soviet Premier Mikhail Gorbachev.
Griffin argues that Reagan's consumption of popular culture was a significant factor in his presidency, often influencing his decisions more than formal reports or briefings.
To End a Plague
Emily Bass
In 'To End a Plague', Emily Bass chronicles the story of PEPFAR (President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief), a program launched by George W. Bush in 2003 to combat the HIV/AIDS epidemic in sub-Saharan Africa.
The book traces the lives of activists who pushed for the program, the political and social challenges faced, and the significant impact PEPFAR had in reducing HIV cases and AIDS deaths.
It also highlights the ongoing struggles and the importance of continued commitment to such global health initiatives.
Putin's People
How the KGB Took Back Russia and Then Took on the West
Catherine Belton
In 'Putin’s People: How the KGB Took Back Russia and Then Took on the West', Catherine Belton provides a comprehensive and chilling account of Vladimir Putin’s rise to power.
The book reveals how Putin, along with a small group of KGB men, seized control of Russia, looted the country, and built a new league of loyal oligarchs.
Belton’s research, based on exclusive interviews with key insiders, exposes the intricate network involving politicians, organized crime, and sympathetic journalists that helped Putin consolidate his power.
The book also details how Putin’s regime subverted Russia’s economy and legal system, suppressed independent voices, and launched covert influence operations abroad, extending their reach into Western markets and institutions.
Daniel Silva's spy novels
Daniel Silva's spy novels
Daniel Silva
Brad Thor's military action thrillers
Brad Thor's military action thrillers
Brad Thor
The Fabric of Civilization
How Textiles Made the World
Virginia Postrel
The Fabric of Civilization delves into the history and global effects of fabric-making, dyeing, the clothing trade, and other textile-related activities.
The book covers topics such as the origins of string and fabric, the value of purple in the Roman Empire, the importance of fabrics for armies and warships, the development of weaving, and the role of textile merchants in modern political economy.
It also discusses historical espionage related to textiles, such as Spain's monopoly on vibrant reds and French efforts to steal Indian indigo.
The book is divided into sections on fiber, thread, cloth, dye, traders, consumers, and innovators, providing a detailed and academic treatment of the subject.
Jewish Space Lasers
The Rothschilds and 200 Years of Conspiracy Theories
Mike Rothschild
This book delves into the history of antisemitic conspiracy theories centered around the Rothschild family, from their emergence in the Jewish ghetto of Frankfurt to the present day.
It explores how these theories have evolved and persisted, influencing culture and politics.
The author, Mike Rothschild, meticulously separates myth from reality, addressing various conspiracy theories such as the 'Jewish space lasers' myth popularized by Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene.
The book highlights the pernicious nature of antisemitism and its role in shaping these conspiracy theories.
No specific book found
Vince Houghton's works do not include a book on this topic
Vince Houghton
Vince Houghton is known for his work as the Director of the National Cryptologic Museum and his discussions on cryptography.
However, he has not written a book that focuses exclusively on cryptology and cryptography in movies and pop culture.
His books include 'Nuking the Moon' and 'The Nuclear Spies', which cover different aspects of intelligence history.
The Seventh Floor
David McCloskey
Book on The Day After and nuclear weapons
Book on The Day After and nuclear weapons
Annie Jacobson
Challenger
A True Story of Heroism and Disaster on the Edge of Space
Adam Higginbotham
This book provides a comprehensive and riveting history of the Challenger disaster, which occurred on January 28, 1986.
Higginbotham delves into the years leading up to the accident, detailing the ambitions, ingenuity, and political cynicism that undermined the space shuttle program.
The narrative follows the seven members of the doomed crew and the designers, engineers, and test pilots who struggled to get the first shuttle into space.
It highlights the ominous warning signs ignored by NASA, the investigation driven by leakers and whistleblowers, and the broader context of the space race and its impact on the NASA space program.
The book is a masterful blend of human drama and scientific detail, exposing the complex costs of innovation and the fatal compromises made in the pursuit of national prestige.
In True Face
A Woman's Life in the CIA Unmasked
Jonna Mendez
Jonna Mendez's memoir, "In True Face," offers a captivating account of her extraordinary career as a CIA officer.
The book details her unconventional entry into the agency, her pioneering work in disguise and clandestine photography, and the challenges she faced as a woman in a male-dominated field.
Mendez shares thrilling anecdotes from her assignments overseas, highlighting the risks and rewards of her profession.
Her experiences provide unique insights into the world of espionage and the human side of intelligence work.
The memoir also underscores the importance of adaptability, resourcefulness, and teamwork in achieving mission success.
Making the Presidency
John Adams and the Precedents That Forged the Republic
Lindsay M Chervinsky
This book is an authoritative exploration of the second US presidency, a period critical to the survival of the American republic.
Through meticulous research and engaging prose, Lindsay Chervinsky illustrates the unique challenges faced by John Adams and shows how he shaped the office for his successors.
Adams, one of the most qualified presidents in American history, had been a legislator, political theorist, diplomat, minister, and vice president but had never held an executive position.
He relied on his ideas about executive power, the Constitution, politics, and the state of the world to navigate the hurdles of the position.
Adams defended the presidency from his own often obstructionist cabinet, protected the nation from foreign attacks, and forged trust and dedication to election integrity and the peaceful transfer of power between parties, even though it cost him his political future.
Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK
Gerald Posner
In 'Case Closed,' Gerald Posner presents a comprehensive and well-researched argument that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone assassin of President John F. Kennedy.
The book meticulously examines the evidence, including the lives of Oswald and Jack Ruby, the ballistic and medical evidence, and the various conspiracy theories surrounding the assassination.
Posner uses computer modeling, graphics, and detailed appendices to support his conclusion that the Warren Commission's findings were correct.
Despite criticism from some conspiracy theorists, the book has been praised for its thoroughness and convincing argument, making it a significant work in the study of the JFK assassination[2][3][4].
1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed
1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed
The Year Civilization Collapsed
Eric H Cline
Eric Cline's "1177 B.C.
: The Year Civilization Collapsed" explores the simultaneous downfall of multiple interconnected Bronze Age civilizations.
The book delves into the complex interplay of factors contributing to this catastrophic event, including climate change, famine, invasions, and earthquakes.
Cline challenges traditional linear explanations, arguing for a more nuanced understanding of a 'perfect storm' scenario.
He examines the impact on various societies, from the Mycenaeans to the Egyptians, and the long-lasting consequences of this systemic collapse.
The book offers valuable insights into the fragility of complex societies and the potential lessons for our own time.
The watchers
A Novel
A. E. W. Mason
Written in the late 19th century, 'The Watchers' is a historical fiction novel that takes place in July 1758.
The story centers around Dick Parmiter, who arrives in London with important news about the death of Adam Mayle.
The novel explores the complex relationships and tensions among the characters, particularly surrounding the enigmatic Cullen Mayle, and delves into themes of adventure, piracy, treasure troves, and mesmerism.
Neil Stevenson's books
Neil Stevenson's books
Neil Stevenson
Waking Up
A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion
Sam Harris
In this book, Sam Harris argues that there is more to understanding reality than science and secular culture generally allow.
He explores the scientific underpinnings of spirituality, suggesting that how we pay attention to the present moment largely determines the quality of our lives.
The book is part memoir and part exploration, discussing the illusion of the self, the benefits of meditation, and the importance of understanding consciousness through both scientific and philosophical lenses.
The Paranoid Style in American Politics
Richard Hofstadter
In this seminal work, Richard Hofstadter explores the concept of the 'paranoid style' in American politics, which he defines as a way of seeing and doing politics characterized by heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratorial fantasy.
The book, which includes the titular essay first published in Harper's Magazine in 1964, delves into historical examples such as the Anti-Masonic Movement, Father Coughlin's antisemitic conspiracies, and the post-McCarthy Right.
Hofstadter argues that this style is not exclusive to any one side of the political spectrum and has been a recurring theme throughout American history, influencing political discourse and the behavior of individuals and groups.
The book also includes other essays on topics like 'Free Silver and the Mind of 'Coin' Harvey' and 'What Happened to the Antitrust Movement?
'[2][4][5]
Bewilderment
Richard Powers
Set in a near-future dystopian America, 'Bewilderment' follows Theo Byrne, an astrobiologist, and his nine-year-old son Robin, who is diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, ADHD, and other conditions.
After the death of his wife, Alyssa, Theo resists psychoactive medication for Robin and instead turns to an experimental neurofeedback therapy that involves training Robin to mimic his mother's brain patterns.
The novel explores themes of family, environmental degradation, and the search for life beyond Earth, highlighting the deep bond between Theo and Robin as they face the challenges of their troubled world.
The quiet American
Graham Greene
After more than three years, Chatter is ending its run. In this episode, Shane and David reflect on the diverse range of topics at the frontiers of national security that this podcast has explored—from spy fiction to lessons of history, from climate change to the visual and musical arts, and from sports and culture to the practice of intelligence.
Along the way, they refer back to many of the podcast’s brilliant guests while lamenting conversations yet unrealized and specific issues yet unaddressed. And they finally ask *each other* several questions from the Chatterbox before closing it. (Forever?)
Works mentioned in this episode: Many too many to list.
Goodbye, and thank you for listening.
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.
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