What is Consciousness? Nested Observer Windows, Meta-Awareness & Mind Wandering | Jonathan Schooler

Jan 15, 2026

In this captivating discussion, Jonathan Schooler, a leading consciousness researcher and founder of Meta Lab at UCSB, explores the depths of human awareness. He delves into mind wandering, revealing how it uncovers hidden layers of thought and creativity. Schooler introduces his Nested Observer Windows model, likening consciousness to a hierarchical mosaic of experiences. The conversation also touches on the illusions of introspection, the complexities of time perception, and the intriguing notion of consciousness possibly extending beyond the brain and even beyond death.

Ask episode

AI Snips

Chapters

Books

Transcript

Episode notes

INSIGHT

Consciousness As Experience

Consciousness is best defined as experience — "what it's like" to be something.
Introspection and self-reports are useful but imperfect and can distort experience.

ADVICE

Validate Reports With Multiple Measures

Triangulate self-reports with behavior and physiology to validate subjective claims.
Use eye movements, reaction times, EEG, and fMRI to confirm reported mind-wandering.

INSIGHT

Meta-Awareness Is A Re-Representation

Meta-awareness is a re-representation of ongoing experience to oneself.
We often lack awareness of mind-wandering until a later meta-aware "snap" moment.

Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode

Get the app

What is Consciousness Really?

Professor Jonathan Schooler joins Dr Tevin Naidu the Mind-Body Solution Podcast for a deep exploration of consciousness, mind wandering, and the Nested Observer Windows (NOW) model. In this conversation, Schooler—founder of Meta Lab (Memory, Emotion, Thought & Awareness) at UCSB—explains why introspection can distort experience, how mind wandering reveals hidden layers of awareness, and why consciousness may be structured as a hierarchy of nested experiential windows.We explore:Why self-reports both matter and misleadMeta-awareness and the illusion of continuous attentionPanpsychism, idealism, and materialismSynchronization and coherence in conscious systemsThe three dimensions of time (objective, subjective, alternative)Free will, creativity, and openness to experienceConsciousness beyond the brain—and possibly beyond deathThis episode bridges psychology, neuroscience, philosophy, and physics, offering one of the clearest articulations of Schooler’s most ambitious ideas to date.TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) — Why Consciousness Is Paradoxical (04:24) — Why Introspection Distorts Experience (Verbal Overshadowing)(08:26) — How Scientists Measure Mind Wandering(11:25) — Do We Directly Access Experience or Construct It Later?(14:29) — Near-Death Experiences, Memory, and Illusion(17:43) — Evolutionary Advantages of Mind Wandering(20:35) — Inside Meta Lab: Memory, Emotion, Thought & Awareness(22:52) — Materialism vs Idealism vs Panpsychism(27:04) — Introducing the Nested Observer Windows (NOW) Model(30:49) — Consciousness as a Mosaic of Nested Windows(33:35) — Synchronization, Coherence & Cross-Frequency Coupling(41:50) — Why Information Is Lost as Awareness Scales Up(45:04) — Three Dimensions of Time Explained(50:51) — Why Science Struggles With Experience, Time & Free Will(55:09) — Subjective Time, Frame Rates & Flow of Consciousness(59:15) — Alternative Time & the Possibility of Free Will(1:05:46) — Measuring Subjective Time in the Brain(1:10:18) — Many Worlds Theory Reimagined Through Consciousness(1:18:48) — Creativity, Mind Wandering & Openness to Experience(2:01:09) — Consciousness, Openness & Humanity’s FutureEPISODE LINKS:- Jonathan's Website: https://labs.psych.ucsb.edu/schooler/jonathan/members/schooler- Jonathan's Publications: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=3UEI9NIAAAAJ&hl=en- Jonathan's Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Schooler- Jonathan's X: https://twitter.com/JonathanSchool6CONNECT:- Website: https://mindbodysolution.org - YouTube: https://youtube.com/@mindbodysolution- Podcast: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show/mindbodysolution- Twitter: https://twitter.com/drtevinnaidu- Facebook: https://facebook.com/drtevinnaidu - Instagram: https://instagram.com/drtevinnaidu- LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/drtevinnaidu- Website: https://tevinnaidu.com=============================Disclaimer: The information provided on this channel is for educational purposes only. The content is shared in the spirit of open discourse and does not constitute, nor does it substitute, professional or medical advice. We do not accept any liability for any loss or damage incurred from you acting or not acting as a result of listening/watching any of our contents. You acknowledge that you use the information provided at your own risk. Listeners/viewers are advised to conduct their own research and consult with their own experts in the respective fields.