Secrets and Spies Podcast: Espionage | Global Issues | Current Affairs S10 Ep16: Chasing Chi with Jim Gaylord
Nov 29, 2025
Jim Gaylord, a former FBI Special Agent who led a significant counterintelligence investigation, shares gripping insights from his book, Chasing Chi. He details the intriguing case of Chi Mak, an engineer who targeted critical submarine technologies for espionage. The conversation dives into how a vague tip evolved into a complex operation involving covert entries, trash pulls, and tactical surveillance. Gaylord emphasizes the ongoing threat posed by China's espionage tactics and the urgent need for stronger defenses in academia and industry.
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From Vague Tip To Home Evidence
- Jim Gaylord recounts how initial vague leads about stolen tech narrowed to Chi Mak through travel and trash evidence.
- A covert search of Mak's house revealed piles of technical documents confirming he was collecting sensitive naval research.
Why Unclassified Research Is High-Value
- Mak targeted emerging, not-yet-classified technologies because they attract less scrutiny yet offer strategic advantage.
- Stealing nascent tech like quiet electric drive can close gaps that give adversaries lethal capabilities.
Shredded Trash Rebuilt The Case
- Agents reconstructed tiny shredded pieces of Mak's tasking list from his trash over nearly two years.
- That reconstructed list was crucial to proving Mak had been given specific tasking by Chinese handlers.
