The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens

Always Adding More: The Unpopular Reality about Energy Transitions with Jean-Baptiste Fressoz

Feb 5, 2025

In this engaging discussion, historian Jean-Baptiste Fressoz delves into the intricate past of energy transitions. He reveals how past energy shifts, from wood to coal and oil, shape our current hopes for a renewable future. Fressoz critiques the narrative of a seamless transition, emphasizing the interdependence of energy sources and the technological innovations in coal mining. He raises critical questions about our ever-growing energy demands and the socioeconomic impacts of rising oil prices, urging a rethinking of economic growth in the face of environmental challenges.

01:15:06

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Jean-Baptiste Fressoz

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Quick takeaways

The historical trajectory of energy use reveals that transitions are more about integration rather than complete substitutions between energy sources.

Modern energy narratives must recognize the ongoing significance of traditional sources like wood, which continue to play a critical role globally.

Capitalist structures perpetuate unsustainable consumption patterns, posing challenges to transitioning towards sustainable energy practices and necessitating collective action.

Deep dives

Rethinking Energy Transition

The notion of an energy transition is critiqued as a simplistic slogan rather than a scientifically valid term, emphasizing that the focus should shift towards decreasing the carbon intensity of the economy. The history of energy use shows that instead of complete shifts from one energy source to another, various forms of energy have built upon and integrated with one another over time. This historical perspective challenges the popular belief that modern civilization is on the verge of a revolutionary change in energy, suggesting instead that advancements like solar panels are part of a continuous evolution rather than a dramatic breakthrough. The podcast highlights that previous transitions, such as that from coal to electricity, resulted not in substitution but in technological progress, making it essential to critically evaluate current energy narratives.

Intro

3min

Interconnected Energy Histories: Challenging the Narrative of Transition

5min

The Hidden Innovations in Coal Mining Technology

2min

Interconnected Energy and Materials History

19min

Energy Dynamics and Future Challenges

16min

The Impact of Energy Transitions on Human Labor Dynamics

2min

Critique of Humanity's Energy Aspirations

14min

Rethinking Growth: The Case for Degrowth

12min

The Uncommon Narrative of Energy Transitions

2min

(Conversation recorded on November 6th, 2024)

The vision of a carbon-free, net-zero society is often framed around the promise of transitioning away from fossil fuels. But what can we learn from past “energy transitions” that might inform how feasible – or unrealistic – this vision actually is?

Today, Nate is joined by energy and technology historian Jean-Baptiste Fressoz for a lesson on the importance of understanding the historical trajectory of energy use for realistically navigating the unprecedented challenges humanity faces today – including the dominant narrative of a modern-day “energy transition.” Jean-Baptiste explores the interdependent relationship between different energy sources—from wood to coal to oil—and reveals how this history shapes our hopes for renewables and nuclear energy moving forward.

How can examining the history of energy and material use help us fully grasp the scale at which human societies actually consume them? What role do our current economic systems play in driving an ever-growing demand for new energy sources? In the history of our species, have we ever fully transitioned off of one energy source and replaced it with another – and what does this imply for the hope of a fossil-free future?

About Jean Baptiste Fressoz:

Jean-Baptiste Fressoz is a historian and researcher at the Alexandre Koyré Center of the School for Advanced Studies in the Social Sciences in Paris, France. His work focuses on environmental history, technology and energy, and the Anthropocene. He is the author of Happy Apocalypse: A History of Technological Risk, as well as the co-author of the book Chaos in the Heavens: The Forgotten History of Climate Change. Most recently, he wrote More and More and More: An All Consuming History of Energy.

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