Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career
Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group)
Episode guests
Podcast summary created with Snipd AI
Quick takeaways
- Avoid falling into project management roles and focus on true product management responsibilities.
- Shift towards outcome-driven product teams over output-focused feature teams highlights the vital role of product managers in driving value.
- Future of product management involves maintaining focus on viability and value amidst AI advancements and evolving landscape of product development.
Deep dives
Companies Over Hired During the Pandemic and Need to Reevaluate Roles
Many companies over hired during the pandemic, leading to the creation of roles like agile coaches and product owners that might not align with real product management practices. The focus on project management roles has led to a culture of overpaid positions that prioritize output over outcomes.
Marty Kagan's Experience and Insights on Product Management Theater
Marty Kagan shares his extensive experience working with product teams and managers, highlighting the trend of product management theater and the need for real product managers. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the true responsibilities of product managers and how to avoid falling into project management roles.
Shift Towards Empowering Product Managers and Avoiding Feature Teams
The shift in the industry indicates a move towards empowering product managers to focus on solving problems and delivering outcomes instead of resorting to feature teams. The distinction between output-focused feature teams and outcome-driven product teams highlights the essential role of product managers in driving value and viability for the business.
Future Skills and Challenges for Product Managers in the Age of AI
As AI continues to evolve, certain product management tasks like communication and strategy optimization may become more efficient. However, the future of the PM role lies in maintaining focus on viability and value, navigating complex legal and ethical considerations, and adapting to the changing landscape of product development to remain effective and relevant.
Approach to Change in Working Methods
The podcast delves into the necessity of transforming work methods across organizations globally. It emphasizes the shift from merely suggesting a change in working patterns to actively providing techniques for effective transformation. By focusing on non-Silicon Valley companies that dramatically altered their approaches, the podcast showcases the innovation and success possible through such transformations.
Introduction to Product Operating Model
The discussion introduces the concept of the product operating model, aiming to define a common framework for successful companies. Emphasizing the importance of core principles over processes, the model consists of 20 principles guiding product strategy, problem-solving, and product delivery. It highlights the essential competencies of product manager, product designer, tech lead, and product leader within organizations to drive effective product strategies.
Marty Cagan is a luminary in the world of product. He’s the author of two of the most foundational books for product teams and product leaders (Inspired and Empowered), he’s the founder of Silicon Valley Product Group (one of the longest-running product advisory groups), and he’s almost certainly worked with more product leaders and teams than any human alive. Now he’s releasing his newest book, Transformed, which is sure to become a staple of tech-powered companies worldwide. Marty’s previous appearance on our show remains one of the most popular episodes to date. In this conversation, we discuss:
• The rise of “product management theater”
• Changes in the PM role post-ZIRP and the shift from growth to build functions
• The disconnect between good product companies and online product advice
• How over-hiring has created challenges in the product industry
• The most important skills for PMs to build
• How to know if you’re on a “feature team”
• The potential disruption of product management by AI
• Marty’s new book, Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model
• Four new competencies required for successful product organizations
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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-management-theater-marty
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Where to find Marty Cagan:
• X: https://twitter.com/cagan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cagan/
• Silicon Valley Product Group: https://www.svpg.com/
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Marty’s background
(04:46) His take on the state of product management
(12:08) Product management theater
(18:33) Feature teams vs. empowered product teams
(24:48) Skills of a real product manager
(29:27) The product management reckoning is here
(32:05) Taking control of your product management career
(34:59) The challenge of finding reliable product management advice
(40:18) The disconnect between good product companies and the product management community
(44:23) Top-down vs. bottom-up cultures
(47:06) The shift in product management post-ZIRP era
(49:44) The changing landscape of product management
(52:05) The disruption of PM skills by AI
(55:56) The purpose and content of Marty’s new book, Transformed
(01:02:05) The product operating model
(01:08:27) New competencies required for successful product teams
(01:11:25) Marty’s thoughts on product ops
(01:15:13) Advice for founders who don’t want product managers
(01:18:06) Lightning round
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Referenced:
• Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model: https://www.amazon.com/Transformed-Becoming-Product-Driven-Company-Silicon/dp/1119697336
• Inspired: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love: https://www.amazon.com/INSPIRED-Create-Tech-Products-Customers/dp/1119387507
• Empowered: Ordinary People, Extraordinary Products: https://www.amazon.com/EMPOWERED-Ordinary-Extraordinary-Products-Silicon/dp/111969129X
• The nature of product | Marty Cagan, Silicon Valley Product Group: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-nature-of-product-marty-cagan-silicon-valley-product-group/
• Product Leadership Theater: https://www.svpg.com/product-leadership-theater/
• Product Management Theater: https://www.svpg.com/product-management-theater/
• Linear: https://linear.app/
• How Linear builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linear-builds-product
• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/brian-cheskys-new-playbook/
• Mamas, don’t let your babies grow up to be coders, Jensen Huang warns: https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/27/jensen_huang_coders/
• Epic Waste: https://www.svpg.com/epic-waste/
• What is scrum and how to get started: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/scrum
• CSPO: https://www.scrumalliance.org/get-certified/product-owner-track/certified-scrum-product-owner
• PSPO: https://www.scrum.org/courses/professional-scrum-product-owner-training
• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira
• Continuous Discovery Habits: Discover Products That Create Customer Value and Business Value: https://www.amazon.com/Continuous-Discovery-Habits-Discover-Products/dp/1736633309
• Shreyas Doshi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shreyasdoshi/
• Ben Erez’s LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7168978777966891008/
• Oracle: https://www.oracle.com/
• The essence of product management | Christian Idiodi (SVPG): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-essence-of-product-management-christian-idiodi-svpg/
• Making Meta | Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth (CTO): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/making-meta-andrew-boz-bosworth-cto/
• Building a long and meaningful career | Nikhyl Singhal (Meta, Google): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-a-long-and-meaningful-career-nikhyl-singhal-meta-google/
• Partners at SVPG: https://www.svpg.com/team/
• Trainline: https://www.thetrainline.com/
• Almosafer: https://global.almosafer.com/
• Expedia: https://www.expedia.com/
• Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/
• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/
• The ultimate guide to product operations | Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-operations-melissa-perri-and-denise-tilles/
• Understanding the role of product ops | Christine Itwaru (Pendo): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/understanding-the-role-of-product-ops-christine-itwaru-pendo/
• Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making: https://www.amazon.com/Build-Unorthodox-Guide-Making-Things/dp/0063046067
• What’s Our Problem?: A Self-Help Book for Societies: https://www.amazon.com/Whats-Our-Problem-Self-Help-Societies/dp/B0BVGH6T1Q
• Rivian: https://rivian.com/
• AI-1 airbag vest: https://www.klim.com/Ai-1-Airbag-Vest-3046-000
• Leslie Lamport’s quote: https://quotefancy.com/quote/3702194/Leslie-Lamport-If-you-re-thinking-without-writing-you-only-think-you-re-thinking
• Joan Didion’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/264509-i-don-t-know-what-i-think-until-i-write-it
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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
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