Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group)

Mar 10, 2024

01:25:14

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In this engaging podcast, Marty Cagan discusses 'product management theater' and the shift from growth to build functions. He explores the challenges of over-hiring in the product industry and the skills essential for successful product managers. The potential disruption of product management by AI is also a hot topic, along with insights from his new book 'Transformed'. Tune in for a deep dive into the evolving dynamics of product management!

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Podcast summary created with Snipd AI

Quick takeaways

Avoid falling into project management roles and focus on true product management responsibilities.

Shift towards outcome-driven product teams over output-focused feature teams highlights the vital role of product managers in driving value.

Future of product management involves maintaining focus on viability and value amidst AI advancements and evolving landscape of product development.

Deep dives

Companies Over Hired During the Pandemic and Need to Reevaluate Roles

Many companies over hired during the pandemic, leading to the creation of roles like agile coaches and product owners that might not align with real product management practices. The focus on project management roles has led to a culture of overpaid positions that prioritize output over outcomes.

Understanding the Importance of Outcomes in Product Management

01:23

How real product teams work

02:41

Essential components of a Power Product Team (including a leader)

01:24

Factors impacting tech companies

01:46

Introduction

5min

Shifting Focus in Product Management and Leadership Writing

9min

Product Management: Transitioning to Real Product Managers

26min

Debating the Effectiveness of Feature Teams in B2B Sales-Driven Companies

2min

Empowerment in Product Management and Building Great Products

5min

Evolution of Product Management in the Era of AI Disruption

8min

Navigating Viability and Product Management Principles

24min

Innovative Product Discoveries and Safety Enhancements

3min

Passion for Engineering, Design, and Writing: A Conversation with a Veteran in the Field

3min

Marty Cagan is a luminary in the world of product. He’s the author of two of the most foundational books for product teams and product leaders (Inspired and Empowered), he’s the founder of Silicon Valley Product Group (one of the longest-running product advisory groups), and he’s almost certainly worked with more product leaders and teams than any human alive. Now he’s releasing his newest book, Transformed, which is sure to become a staple of tech-powered companies worldwide. Marty’s previous appearance on our show remains one of the most popular episodes to date. In this conversation, we discuss:

• The rise of “product management theater”

• Changes in the PM role post-ZIRP and the shift from growth to build functions

• The disconnect between good product companies and online product advice

• How over-hiring has created challenges in the product industry

• The most important skills for PMs to build

• How to know if you’re on a “feature team”

• The potential disruption of product management by AI

• Marty’s new book, Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model

• Four new competencies required for successful product organizations

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-management-theater-marty

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Where to find Marty Cagan:

• X: https://twitter.com/cagan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cagan/

• Silicon Valley Product Group: https://www.svpg.com/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Marty’s background

(04:46) His take on the state of product management

(12:08) Product management theater

(18:33) Feature teams vs. empowered product teams

(24:48) Skills of a real product manager

(29:27) The product management reckoning is here

(32:05) Taking control of your product management career

(34:59) The challenge of finding reliable product management advice

(40:18) The disconnect between good product companies and the product management community

(44:23) Top-down vs. bottom-up cultures

(47:06) The shift in product management post-ZIRP era

(49:44) The changing landscape of product management

(52:05) The disruption of PM skills by AI

(55:56) The purpose and content of Marty’s new book, Transformed

(01:02:05) The product operating model

(01:08:27) New competencies required for successful product teams

(01:11:25) Marty’s thoughts on product ops

(01:15:13) Advice for founders who don’t want product managers

(01:18:06) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model: https://www.amazon.com/Transformed-Becoming-Product-Driven-Company-Silicon/dp/1119697336

• Inspired: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love: https://www.amazon.com/INSPIRED-Create-Tech-Products-Customers/dp/1119387507

• Empowered: Ordinary People, Extraordinary Products: https://www.amazon.com/EMPOWERED-Ordinary-Extraordinary-Products-Silicon/dp/111969129X

• The nature of product | Marty Cagan, Silicon Valley Product Group: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-nature-of-product-marty-cagan-silicon-valley-product-group/

• Product Leadership Theater: https://www.svpg.com/product-leadership-theater/

• Product Management Theater: https://www.svpg.com/product-management-theater/

• Linear: https://linear.app/

• How Linear builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linear-builds-product

• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/brian-cheskys-new-playbook/

• Mamas, don’t let your babies grow up to be coders, Jensen Huang warns: https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/27/jensen_huang_coders/

• Epic Waste: https://www.svpg.com/epic-waste/

• What is scrum and how to get started: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/scrum

• CSPO: https://www.scrumalliance.org/get-certified/product-owner-track/certified-scrum-product-owner

• PSPO: https://www.scrum.org/courses/professional-scrum-product-owner-training

• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira

• Continuous Discovery Habits: Discover Products That Create Customer Value and Business Value: https://www.amazon.com/Continuous-Discovery-Habits-Discover-Products/dp/1736633309

• Shreyas Doshi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shreyasdoshi/

• Ben Erez’s LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7168978777966891008/

• Oracle: https://www.oracle.com/

• The essence of product management | Christian Idiodi (SVPG): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-essence-of-product-management-christian-idiodi-svpg/

• Making Meta | Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth (CTO): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/making-meta-andrew-boz-bosworth-cto/

• Building a long and meaningful career | Nikhyl Singhal (Meta, Google): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-a-long-and-meaningful-career-nikhyl-singhal-meta-google/

• Partners at SVPG: https://www.svpg.com/team/

• Trainline: https://www.thetrainline.com/

• Almosafer: https://global.almosafer.com/

• Expedia: https://www.expedia.com/

• Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/

• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/

• The ultimate guide to product operations | Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-operations-melissa-perri-and-denise-tilles/

• Understanding the role of product ops | Christine Itwaru (Pendo): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/understanding-the-role-of-product-ops-christine-itwaru-pendo/

• Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making: https://www.amazon.com/Build-Unorthodox-Guide-Making-Things/dp/0063046067

• What’s Our Problem?: A Self-Help Book for Societies: https://www.amazon.com/Whats-Our-Problem-Self-Help-Societies/dp/B0BVGH6T1Q

• Rivian: https://rivian.com/

• AI-1 airbag vest: https://www.klim.com/Ai-1-Airbag-Vest-3046-000

• Leslie Lamport’s quote: https://quotefancy.com/quote/3702194/Leslie-Lamport-If-you-re-thinking-without-writing-you-only-think-you-re-thinking

• Joan Didion’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/264509-i-don-t-know-what-i-think-until-i-write-it

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

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Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group)

Podcast summary created with Snipd AI

Quick takeaways

Deep dives

Companies Over Hired During the Pandemic and Need to Reevaluate Roles

Marty Kagan's Experience and Insights on Product Management Theater

Shift Towards Empowering Product Managers and Avoiding Feature Teams

Future Skills and Challenges for Product Managers in the Age of AI

Approach to Change in Working Methods

Introduction to Product Operating Model

Understanding the Importance of Outcomes in Product Management

How real product teams work

Essential components of a Power Product Team (including a leader)

Factors impacting tech companies

Get the Snipd
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AI-powered
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Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group)

Podcast summary created with Snipd AI

Quick takeaways

Deep dives

Companies Over Hired During the Pandemic and Need to Reevaluate Roles

Marty Kagan's Experience and Insights on Product Management Theater

Shift Towards Empowering Product Managers and Avoiding Feature Teams

Future Skills and Challenges for Product Managers in the Age of AI

Approach to Change in Working Methods

Introduction to Product Operating Model

Understanding the Importance of Outcomes in Product Management

How real product teams work

Essential components of a Power Product Team (including a leader)

Factors impacting tech companies

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Save anymoment

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