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Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group)

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Mar 10, 2024

Guest

Marty Cagan

Marty Cagan, a premier voice in product management and author of iconic books like 'Inspired,' delves into the concept of 'product management theater.' He discusses the aftermath of overhiring during the pandemic and the essential skills product managers must develop, especially with AI's rise. Cagan elaborates on the difference between empowered product teams and feature teams, emphasizing customer-centric strategies. He also introduces insights from his latest book, 'Transformed,' aimed at guiding companies through new challenges in product development.

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Episode notes

00:00 / 00:00

Raise Your Product Game

If you're a "product manager" without real product skills, raise your game by developing those skills.
Focus on value and viability for the customer and business, respectively.

00:00 / 00:00

The Product Management Reckoning

Be aware of the "product management reckoning" where companies realize the ineffectiveness of delivery teams and feature team PMs.
Raise your skills to focus on real product management contributions to remain valuable.

00:00 / 00:00

Beware of Online Product Advice

Be critical of online product advice, as much of it comes from companies with ineffective product practices.
Seek resources and mentorship from proven product leaders and companies.

Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode

Navigating Product Management Dynamics

04:53 • 14min

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Rethinking Product Management Dynamics

18:33 • 24min

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Empowerment vs. Feature Teams: Navigating Product Dynamics

42:14 • 5min

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The Evolving Role of Product Managers in an AI-Driven Market

47:07 • 8min

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Understanding Viability and Transformative Change in Business

55:03 • 5min

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Empowering Product Management

01:00:29 • 20min

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Tech Innovations and Personal Insights

01:20:28 • 5min

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#638

• Mentioned in 48 episodes

Inspired

How To Create Products Customers Love

Marty Cagan

In 'Inspired,' Marty Cagan provides a detailed and practical guide to product management. The book emphasizes the critical role of product managers in merging technology and design to address genuine customer needs while aligning with business objectives. Cagan discusses key concepts such as the importance of product vision, continuous discovery and delivery, and the need for a user-centric approach. He also highlights the differences between product management and other roles like product marketing, and stresses the importance of having a dedicated team for product development. The book is structured to help both junior and seasoned product managers understand and implement best practices in product management, drawing from Cagan's extensive experience in the tech industry.

#1012

• Mentioned in 35 episodes

Build

An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making

Tony Fadell

This book is an advice encyclopedia and a mentor in a box, written for anyone looking to grow at work, from young graduates to CEOs. It charts Tony Fadell's personal journey from a product designer to a leader, startup founder, executive, and mentor. The book includes captivating examples, such as the development of the first iPod and iPhone, and offers practical advice on various aspects of product development, leadership, and entrepreneurship. It emphasizes the importance of human relationships, continuous learning, and caring deeply about the work you do.

#2491

• Mentioned in 17 episodes

Empowered

Ordinary People, Extraordinary Products

Marty Cagan

Chris Jones

This book, written by Marty Cagan and Chris Jones, focuses on the practices of top tech companies like Amazon, Apple, Google, Netflix, and Tesla. It explains how these companies achieve consistent innovation not by hiring exceptional talent, but by enabling their people to work together effectively to solve hard problems. The book covers topics such as the difference between empowered product teams and feature teams, recruiting and coaching team members, creating inspiring product visions and strategies, and transforming organizations to adopt the empowered team model. It provides practical advice and frameworks for product leaders to create an environment where their teams can thrive and produce extraordinary products.

#11860

• Mentioned in 4 episodes

Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model

Marty Cagan

This book bridges the gap between current business practices and the need to adopt the product operating model to compete in an era of rapidly changing technology. It educates readers on the product operating model, convinces them of its feasibility through detailed case studies, and inspires with examples of product innovation. Cagan emphasizes empowering teams, fostering an environment of experimentation and learning, and overcoming challenges such as silos and risk aversion. The book is filled with real-world examples and practical advice from Cagan and his partners at the Silicon Valley Product Group.

#1136

• Mentioned in 31 episodes

What's Our Problem?

A Self-Help Book for Societies

Tim Urban

This book is a comprehensive analysis of modern society, delving into history, evolutionary psychology, political theory, neuroscience, and modern-day political movements. It introduces a vertical axis that explores how we think, as individuals and as groups, rather than the traditional left-center-right horizontal political axis. The book is packed with original concepts, sticky metaphors, and 300 drawings, offering readers a delightful and fascinating journey that will change their perspective on the world.

#2525

• Mentioned in 17 episodes

Continuous Discovery Habits

Teresa Torres

In this book, Teresa Torres provides a practical and actionable framework for continuous discovery. She emphasizes the importance of weekly touchpoints with customers and small research activities to guide product development. The book helps product teams understand who they are building for and what value they can create, ensuring that products meet customer needs while delivering business value. It also addresses common challenges and biases in the discovery process, such as the curse of knowledge, escalation of commitment, and confirmation bias. Torres offers concrete methodologies to clarify problems, structure opportunity spaces, and measure success, making it a must-read for product managers and teams.

Marty Cagan is a luminary in the world of product. He’s the author of two of the most foundational books for product teams and product leaders (Inspired and Empowered), he’s the founder of Silicon Valley Product Group (one of the longest-running product advisory groups), and he’s almost certainly worked with more product leaders and teams than any human alive. Now he’s releasing his newest book, Transformed, which is sure to become a staple of tech-powered companies worldwide. Marty’s previous appearance on our show remains one of the most popular episodes to date. In this conversation, we discuss:

• The rise of “product management theater”

• Changes in the PM role post-ZIRP and the shift from growth to build functions

• The disconnect between good product companies and online product advice

• How over-hiring has created challenges in the product industry

• The most important skills for PMs to build

• How to know if you’re on a “feature team”

• The potential disruption of product management by AI

• Marty’s new book, Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model

• Four new competencies required for successful product organizations

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• Sprig—Build a product people love

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-management-theater-marty

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Where to find Marty Cagan:

• X: https://twitter.com/cagan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cagan/

• Silicon Valley Product Group: https://www.svpg.com/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Marty’s background

(04:46) His take on the state of product management

(12:08) Product management theater

(18:33) Feature teams vs. empowered product teams

(24:48) Skills of a real product manager

(29:27) The product management reckoning is here

(32:05) Taking control of your product management career

(34:59) The challenge of finding reliable product management advice

(40:18) The disconnect between good product companies and the product management community

(44:23) Top-down vs. bottom-up cultures

(47:06) The shift in product management post-ZIRP era

(49:44) The changing landscape of product management

(52:05) The disruption of PM skills by AI

(55:56) The purpose and content of Marty’s new book, Transformed

(01:02:05) The product operating model

(01:08:27) New competencies required for successful product teams

(01:11:25) Marty’s thoughts on product ops

(01:15:13) Advice for founders who don’t want product managers

(01:18:06) Lightning round

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Referenced:

• Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model: https://www.amazon.com/Transformed-Becoming-Product-Driven-Company-Silicon/dp/1119697336

• Inspired: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love: https://www.amazon.com/INSPIRED-Create-Tech-Products-Customers/dp/1119387507

• Empowered: Ordinary People, Extraordinary Products: https://www.amazon.com/EMPOWERED-Ordinary-Extraordinary-Products-Silicon/dp/111969129X

• The nature of product | Marty Cagan, Silicon Valley Product Group: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-nature-of-product-marty-cagan-silicon-valley-product-group/

• Product Leadership Theater: https://www.svpg.com/product-leadership-theater/

• Product Management Theater: https://www.svpg.com/product-management-theater/

• Linear: https://linear.app/

• How Linear builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linear-builds-product

• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/brian-cheskys-new-playbook/

• Mamas, don’t let your babies grow up to be coders, Jensen Huang warns: https://www.theregister.com/2024/02/27/jensen_huang_coders/

• Epic Waste: https://www.svpg.com/epic-waste/

• What is scrum and how to get started: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/scrum

• CSPO: https://www.scrumalliance.org/get-certified/product-owner-track/certified-scrum-product-owner

• PSPO: https://www.scrum.org/courses/professional-scrum-product-owner-training

• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira

• Continuous Discovery Habits: Discover Products That Create Customer Value and Business Value: https://www.amazon.com/Continuous-Discovery-Habits-Discover-Products/dp/1736633309

• Shreyas Doshi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shreyasdoshi/

• Ben Erez’s LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7168978777966891008/

• Oracle: https://www.oracle.com/

• The essence of product management | Christian Idiodi (SVPG): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-essence-of-product-management-christian-idiodi-svpg/

• Making Meta | Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth (CTO): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/making-meta-andrew-boz-bosworth-cto/

• Building a long and meaningful career | Nikhyl Singhal (Meta, Google): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-a-long-and-meaningful-career-nikhyl-singhal-meta-google/

• Partners at SVPG: https://www.svpg.com/team/

• Trainline: https://www.thetrainline.com/

• Almosafer: https://global.almosafer.com/

• Expedia: https://www.expedia.com/

• Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/

• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/

• The ultimate guide to product operations | Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-operations-melissa-perri-and-denise-tilles/

• Understanding the role of product ops | Christine Itwaru (Pendo): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/understanding-the-role-of-product-ops-christine-itwaru-pendo/

• Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making: https://www.amazon.com/Build-Unorthodox-Guide-Making-Things/dp/0063046067

• What’s Our Problem?: A Self-Help Book for Societies: https://www.amazon.com/Whats-Our-Problem-Self-Help-Societies/dp/B0BVGH6T1Q

• Rivian: https://rivian.com/

• AI-1 airbag vest: https://www.klim.com/Ai-1-Airbag-Vest-3046-000

• Leslie Lamport’s quote: https://quotefancy.com/quote/3702194/Leslie-Lamport-If-you-re-thinking-without-writing-you-only-think-you-re-thinking

• Joan Didion’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/264509-i-don-t-know-what-i-think-until-i-write-it

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

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