Lawfare Archive: David Rohde on the Supposed "Deep State"
Feb 15, 2025
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In this engaging discussion, David Rohde, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist from The New Yorker and author of "In Deep," dives into the complexities of the 'deep state.' He explores historical tensions between U.S. presidents and intelligence agencies, revealing how these conflicts have shaped public perception. Rohde addresses the decline in trust in government and the misuse of the 'deep state' concept for political manipulation. With sharp insights, he sheds light on the need for oversight, transparency, and rebuilding public confidence in national security institutions.
The rise of the 'deep state' narrative reflects historical tensions between U.S. presidents and national security institutions, impacting public trust.
Public skepticism about unelected officials' influence on policy varies politically, complicating discussions of necessary reforms for accountability.
Former intelligence officials navigating their post-service roles contribute to public skepticism, underscoring the tension between integrity and the deep state narrative.
Deep dives
The Concept of the Deep State
The term 'deep state' originated as a reference to the military's influence in Turkey and has evolved in the U.S. context to denote an alleged conspiracy involving national security agencies like the FBI and CIA. This narrative has gained traction among both Trump supporters and certain segments of the American public, with many believing that unelected officials manipulate government policy. Interestingly, surveys show that a significant portion of Americans has expressed skepticism about the transparency and motivations of these institutions. As this perspective polarizes public opinion, it highlights a worrying trend in the relationship between the government and its citizens.
Historical Clashes with National Security Structures
The podcast underscores the historical instances of friction between various U.S. presidents and national security institutions, which have contributed to the formation of the deep state narrative. The discussion references how several presidents faced challenges from intelligence agencies and law enforcement, leading to significant reforms in the late 1970s aimed at increasing oversight. These reforms, namely the creation of congressional intelligence committees and the FISA court, sought to balance governmental power and protect civil liberties. This historical context is crucial for understanding how perceptions of a hidden power structure, or deep state, have developed over the decades.
Diverging Perspectives on the Deep State
The concept of the deep state is interpreted differently across the political spectrum, with liberals typically associating it with a military-industrial complex and conservatives citing an overwhelming administrative state. Poll results indicate a broad skepticism among Americans regarding the influence of unelected officials on policy decisions, but the definitions of this influence vary significantly based on political alignment. Conservatives perceive government agencies as infringing on individual freedoms, while liberals fear a military-focused agenda leading to continuous conflict. This division complicates discussions about necessary reforms to restore trust in these institutions.
The Role of Whistleblowers and Former Officials
The podcast addresses the challenges facing former intelligence and military officials as they navigate their post-service roles while seeking to maintain integrity in a polarized environment. Individuals like Jim Clapper and John Brennan have spoken out against the deep state narrative, driven by a sense of duty to provide accurate information based on their extensive experience. However, their actions can inadvertently reinforce the deep state narrative by fueling skepticism among the public about governmental motives and transparency. This tension is indicative of a larger issue regarding how civil servants balance their obligations to the public with the necessity of adhering to the democratic mandate set by elected leaders.
Calls for Oversight and Reform
The discussion emphasizes the need for reform in oversight mechanisms to restore trust in national security and law enforcement agencies in light of the deep state discourse. Parsing through historical lessons, there is a call for more stringent oversight of agencies like the FBI and CIA to ensure accountability and prevent abuses of power. The conversation around the FISA process highlights the importance of transparency and the implications of over-classification of information. Ultimately, the podcast suggests that increased collaboration and honesty between government entities and the public is essential for rebuilding confidence in these institutions.
From July 14, 2020: In a 2018 poll, 74 percent of Americans said they believed that some group of unelected government and military officials was definitely or probably secretly manipulating or directing national policy. What is the actual history of presidents and Congress clashing with national security and law enforcement institutions? And how has that led to Trump's notion of a deep state out to get him? David Priess spoke with two-time Pulitzer Prize winner David Rohde of The New Yorker, who has turned his attention to this tricky topic in the new book, "In Deep: The FBI, the CIA, and the Truth about America's 'Deep State.'" They talked about intelligence, law enforcement, inspectors general, public trust in government and of course, Bill Barr.
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