1st Order & 2nd Order Change

Oct 21, 2025

James Tripp, a therapist and trainer, dives into the intriguing distinction between first-order and second-order change. He illustrates how first-order changes merely shift things around without real impact, likening it to rearranging chess pieces in a losing game. Tripp argues for creative, unconventional solutions to break free from entrenched patterns. He discusses how Ericksonian methods provoke radical change by circumventing rigid logic, touching on topics like insomnia and familial dynamics. His insights emphasize that true transformation requires thinking outside the box.

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INSIGHT

Change That Actually Changes The System

First-order changes alter details but keep the system's logic, so the problem persists.
Second-order changes break the system's rules with creative acts outside the current logic.

ANECDOTE

Chess And The Unwritten Rules

James uses the chess and book-writing examples to show repeated actions that achieve nothing.
He explains that changing moves inside the same rules still keeps you playing the losing game.

INSIGHT

When Solutions Fuel The Problem

When attempted solutions are generated by the problem's logic they become part of the problem.
Effective change requires stepping outside that logic to discover novel solutions.

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In this episode, James Tripp introduces the powerful distinction between first-order and second-order change. First-order changes are modifications made within an existing system that ultimately change nothing—like rearranging chess pieces while still playing the same losing game. Second-order changes break the rules of the system entirely, requiring creative acts outside the current logic that keeps problems perpetuating. James explains how effective therapy and change work depends on helping clients escape their rigid frameworks and "the more, the more” patterns (the more I try to fix this, the worse it gets) through illogical, creative engagement rather than logical solutions. This concept underpins approaches from Ericksonian hypnosis to IFS, explaining why all successful therapies share this common thread. Timestamps: [00:00:00] Introduction to the episode [00:01:00] First-order vs second-order change distinction explained [00:01:15] The chess game metaphor - change that changes nothing [00:02:15] Example: Trying to write a book the same way repeatedly [00:02:45] How the logic of a system perpetuates the problem [00:03:00] Insomnia example - desperation perpetuating the problem [00:03:30] Attempted solutions becoming part of the problem pattern [00:04:15] Why Erickson used "crazy stuff" that doesn't make sense [00:04:30] Connecting to adaptive intelligence and novel solutions [00:05:00] Left hemisphere logic vs right hemisphere creativity [00:05:45] The nine-dot problem as an example [00:06:30] The origin of "thinking outside the box" [00:07:30] Unconscious rules blocking pathways to solutions [00:08:00] Relationship dynamics example - pursuing creates withdrawal [00:08:30] The "more pattern" - doing more of what doesn't work [00:09:30] Erickson's approach: "There's nothing you need to do" [00:10:00] Stop doing and start allowing - switching hemispheres [00:11:00] Context and expectations in change work [00:11:45] Hypnotherapy frame allowing for "weird and illogical" [00:12:30] All effective therapists get people outside their logic [00:13:00] IFS requires creative participation [00:14:00] There is no "correct logical process" for change [00:14:30] Staying in the framework vs stepping outside it [00:15:30] Listening for rigidity in client frameworks [00:16:00] NLP presupposition: "Do something different, anything different" [00:16:30] Being recruited by the problem [00:17:00] Clean language and the impulse to "get rid of it" [00:18:00] How IFS builds in second-order changes [00:18:45] First-order/second-order as the "golden thread" across therapies [00:19:15] How reframing works - offering different conceptual frameworks [00:20:15] Getting people to play a different game entirely [00:21:00] Patterns that perpetuate vs patterns that play through [00:21:30] Changing the rules changes the whole game [00:22:00] Chess "castling" example - rule added centuries later [00:22:15] Martial arts rules changing outcomes [00:23:30] Unconscious rule sets blocking outcomes [00:24:15] Signs you're stuck in a thinking box [00:25:15] Red flags in initial client emails [00:25:45] When clients tell you exactly what they want you to do [00:26:30] "If you think you're part of the solution, you might be part of the problem" [00:27:00] Solution-focused advertising engaging left hemisphere logic [00:28:00] The real solution will be a surprise [00:28:30] Holding an outcome like holding a baby bird [00:29:30] Working with rigidly locked-in clients [00:30:00] Pacing and leading vs getting beyond logic quickly [00:31:00] "Your best thinking got you here" [00:31:30] PTSD example - shifting from mind to body [00:33:00] Invitation to "just go with it and notice" [00:33:15] The "more pattern" signature of first-order change [00:33:30] Weight loss and eating control example [00:35:30] "Let the medicine do its work" - breaking the more pattern [00:37:00] Conversational hypnosis as reorganizing reality [00:38:00] Inviting people into different conceptual renderings [00:39:00] Difference between classical suggestion and Ericksonian approach [00:40:00] Changing rules vs giving instructions [00:40:45] When rules change, behavior changes by default [00:41:00] Closing and contact information changeworkingpod@gmail.com www.clientshifts.com