Full-Tilt Parenting: Strategies, Insights, and Connection for Parents Raising Neurodivergent Children

TPP 455: A Conversation with Dr. Naomi Fisher on Neurodivergence, PDA, and Self-Directed Learning

Jul 22, 2025

Dr. Naomi Fisher, a clinical psychologist and author specializing in trauma and alternative education, discusses the power of self-directed learning for neurodivergent children, especially those with PDA. She emphasizes the significance of agency in learning, explaining how traditional schools can hinder a child's self-worth. Naomi also highlights the importance of respecting a child's right to say no, re-framing demand avoidance as a natural response to overwhelm, and suggests flexible, relationship-centered approaches to education.

Ask episode

AI Snips

Chapters

Books

Transcript

Episode notes

ANECDOTE

Naomi's Diverse School Journey

Naomi attended 11 different schools worldwide, observing inconsistencies in educational priorities.
This experience seeded her skepticism about traditional schooling and sparked her advocacy for child-centered education.

INSIGHT

Natural Agency in Learning

Self-directed learning preserves children's natural agency and interest in learning.
It allows children to define what, how, and when they learn, building trust in their own judgment.

ANECDOTE

Reading Gained Through Interest

Naomi's son learned to read late through interest-driven discovery like road signs and Minecraft.
Her daughter learned to read at age 11 using beloved chapter books, fostering a positive reading relationship.

Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode

Get the app

In this conversation, I talk with clinical psychologist and author Dr. Naomi Fisher about self-directed education, and why it can be such a powerful approach for neurodivergent kids, especially those with a PDA profile. Naomi shares why agency is so important in learning, how traditional school can chip away at a child’s self-worth, and what it looks like when we truly support demand-avoidant kids in ways that work for them. We also get into the challenges parents face when stepping outside the norm and why keeping the parent-child relationship at the center is key.

About Dr. Naomi Fisher

Dr. Naomi Fisher is a clinical psychologist who specialises in trauma, autism and alternative education. She is the author of several books including When the Naughty Step Makes Things Worse and the Teenager’s Guide to Burnout. She runs webinars for parents and more of her work can be found at www.naomifisher.co.uk

Things you'll learn from this episode

Why agency in learning is essential for neurodivergent children to build confidence, reduce anxiety, and stay engaged
How self-directed education supports children—especially those with PDA—by minimizing pressure and honoring their natural pace
Why respecting a child’s right to say no is foundational for creating a safe, trust-based learning environment
How understanding the cycle of demand avoidance helps reframe “bad behavior” as a response to overwhelm, not defiance
Why shifting away from rigid definitions of academic success can open the door to more authentic growth and capability
How prioritizing the parent-child relationship and finding community support helps families confidently navigate less conventional paths

Resources mentioned

Dr. Naomi Fisher’s website

Naomi Fisher on Substack

A Different Way to Learn by Naomi Fisher

Eliza Fricker Talks About Parenting a Child with PDA (Tilt Parenting Podcast)

Eliza Fricker’s website

The Family Experience of PDA by Eliza Fricker

Eliza Fricker / Missing the Mark on Facebook

Changing Our Minds: How Children Can Take Control of Their Own Learning by Naomi Fisher

What Can We Do When School’s Not Working: An Illustrated Handbook for Professionals by Naomi Fisher

Dr. Ross Greene’s Collaborative and Proactive Solutions Model

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices