"Econ 102" with Noah Smith and Erik Torenberg

Immigration Debate w/ Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry and Noah Smith

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Dec 5, 2025

Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry, a noted writer and commentator on public policy, joins Noah Smith for a spirited debate on immigration. They delve into the moral and philosophical justifications of national borders, exploring the misconceptions held by voters about immigration's impact. Digging into enforcement strategies, Pascal questions progressive rhetoric while Noah suggests employer audits over mass deportations. The duo also discusses the intricate relationship between deportations, crime rates, and the fiscal toll on cities, leaving listeners with thought-provoking insights on a complex issue.

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INSIGHT

Borders Are Essential For Functioning States

Nations need borders and enforced rules to function and preserve democratic accountability.
Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry warns that devaluing borders risks undermining the nation-state as a working political form.

INSIGHT

Voter Views Shift With Better Information

Public opinion often opposes abstract open-borders theory but supports limiting enforcement extremes once informed.
Noah Smith argues many people hold inconsistent views because they lack facts on how policy operates in practice.

ANECDOTE

Parsley Massacre Cited As Extreme Example

Noah recounts the Dominican Republic's 1937 'parsley massacre' as an extreme historical response to immigration.
He uses it to illustrate how enforcement can become brutal, though he says the U.S. won't follow that path.

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In this episode of Econ 102 originally aired on the Sphere Podcast, Noah Smith and Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry sit down for a debate on immigration. They cover the philosophical underpinnings of their arguments, where they find common ground, border enforcement, deportation, public opinion, and more.

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Noah Smith and Pascal Emmanuel Gobry (PEG) engaged in a debate about immigration policy, focusing primarily on illegal immigration and enforcement approaches.
The conversation centered on philosophical positions about borders, practical enforcement strategies, and the societal impacts of immigration policies.
Both agreed that nations should have borders and control who enters, though they differed on enforcement methods.
Noah advocated for employer-focused enforcement through company audits and fines rather than deportations.
PEG supported stronger deportation measures and argued for the value of deterrence.
They debated whether deportations would reduce crime affecting legal residents.
Both agreed on the fiscal costs of illegal immigration as a significant issue.
They discussed the political challenges of passing immigration reform.

Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
05:00 – Philosophical Foundations: Borders, Nations, and Policy
09:00 – “No Human is Illegal” & Historical Context
13:25 – Sponsors: Notion | Netsuite
15:30 – Enforcement, Detention, and Public Perception
24:00 – Asylum Law, Legislative Gridlock, and Political Realities
28:10 – Sponsor: Found
41:00 – Mass Deportation: Crime, Economics, and Evidence
56:00 – Trust, Public Sentiment, and Policy Limits
1:10:00 – Final Thoughts & Outro
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Listen to the Sphere Podcast:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/48eWEcxSYDyrgjC3lO0EJZ

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCB2gs2TBXeP7vyn9QUaaxjQ
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FOLLOW on X:

Pascal - https://x.com/pegobry_en

Noah - https://x.com/Noahpinion

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