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Inside the expert network training every frontier AI model | Garrett Lord (Handshake CEO)

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Aug 24, 2025

Guest

Garrett Lord

Garrett Lord, co-founder and CEO of Handshake, shares how his career network evolved into a powerful data-labeling business tapping into a vast network of academic experts. He discusses the crucial role of expert data in training AI models, illustrating how PhDs help make models like GPT-5 smarter. The transformation from generalist to specialist labeling has opened new business opportunities. Garrett also touches on the collaboration with AI labs, and how AI technology enhances productivity, likening it to giving junior employees 'Iron Man suits.'

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Episode notes

00:00 / 00:00

Post-Training Is The New Frontier

Model improvement now comes mostly from post-training targeted data rather than raw pre-training scale.
Researchers run scientific experiments and collect specialized data to push capabilities in narrow domains.

00:00 / 00:00

Experts Replace Generalists

Experts, not low-cost generalists, are now required to improve frontier models in advanced domains.
Handshake's network of PhDs and masters students lets them target high-skill areas like chemistry, physics, and biology.

00:00 / 00:00

Fix Models By Providing Stepwise Ground Truth

Break models by finding where reasoning or steps fail, then provide ground truth and step-by-step corrections.
Use expert-created trajectories, rubrics, and SFT data to teach correct intermediate steps, not just final answers.

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Enhancing AI Through Expert Data Labeling

05:10 • 13min

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Navigating AI Model Development and Human Collaboration

17:50 • 14min

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Navigating the Shift from Generalists to Expert Networks

31:49 • 5min

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Building Connections and Driving AI Innovation

36:29 • 26min

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Building Dreams and Sharing Wisdom

01:02:24 • 3min

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Hustle and Growth: The Handshake Journey

01:05:51 • 4min

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Notes on Startups, or How to Build the Future

Peter Thiel

In 'Zero to One,' Peter Thiel argues that true innovation comes from creating something entirely new, going from 'zero to one,' rather than incrementally improving existing ideas. He emphasizes the importance of vertical progress through technology and the benefits of monopoly in driving innovation. Thiel also discusses the need for long-term planning, the importance of finding the right co-founders, and the power law in startup success. The book challenges conventional wisdom and encourages readers to think critically and aim big to build the future.

Garrett Lord is co-founder and CEO of Handshake, which started as a career network for college students and new grads but recently discovered something extraordinary: they were sitting on the world’s largest network of academic experts—exactly what frontier AI labs desperately needed. With 500,000 PhDs and 3 million advanced degree holders creating training data, in just eight months they’ve built a new business that hit $50 million in revenue in its first four months and is on track to blow past $100M in the first 12 months.

What you’ll learn:

1. How Handshake found an opportunity to leverage their proprietary network of experts to launch a data-labeling business that’s on track to blow past $100 million ARR in 12 months

2. Why AI models need human experts (e.g. physics PhDs) to improve, and what this “data labeling” actually involves

3. Inside the actual work: what a biology PhD does for 8 hours that makes GPT-5 smarter

4. The playbook for building a startup inside a startup: separate teams, separate offices, separate everything

5. Why the shift from “generalist” to “expert” data labeling created a once-in-a-lifetime business opportunity

6. Why AI won’t eliminate entry-level jobs—it’s creating “Iron Man suits” that make junior employees 10x more productive

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Brought to you by:

CodeRabbit—Cut code review time and bugs in half. Instantly: https://coderabbit.link/lenny

Orkes—The enterprise platform for reliable applications and agentic workflows: https://www.orkes.io/

Claude.ai—The AI for problem solvers and enterprise: http://claude.ai/

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Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-handshake-garrett-lord

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My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/171410958/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation

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Where to find Garrett Lord:

• X: https://x.com/garrettlord

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garrettlord/

• Email: Garrett@joinhandshake.com

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Garrett Lord

(05:00) Understanding data labeling and its importance

(13:08) The role of experts in AI model training

(15:35) The future of AI and human collaboration

(24:17) Why AI won’t eliminate entry-level jobs

(27:58) The continuous improvement of AI models

(33:05) The emergence of Handshake’s new business model

(37:07) Incubating new ideas in established companies

(40:42) Handshake's competitive advantage

(45:43) Scaling up and meeting market demand

(48:38) Overcoming challenges and adapting

(53:08) The importance of separate teams and ownership

(57:26) The future of job matching with AI

(01:00:30) The biggest bottlenecks to advancing models further

(01:02:37) Lightning round and final thoughts

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Referenced:

• GPQA: https://github.com/idavidrein/gpqa

• Handshake: https://joinhandshake.com/

• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai

• Inside Bolt: From near-death to ~$40m ARR in 5 months—one of the fastest-growing products in history | Eric Simons (founder and CEO of StackBlitz): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-bolt-eric-simons

• Goldman Sachs: https://www.goldmansachs.com/

• General Motors: https://www.gm.com/

• Google: https://about.google/

• Sahil Bhaiwala on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sahil-bhaiwala-459b0354/

• Francisco “Paco” Guzman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guzmanhe/

• Avery Yip on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/averyyip/

• Game of Thrones on HBO: https://www.hbomax.com/shows/game-of-thrones/4f6b4985-2dc9-4ab6-ac79-d60f0860b0ac

• SNOO: https://www.happiestbaby.com/products/snoo-smart-bassinet

• Careers at Handshake: https://joinhandshake.com/careers/

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Recommended books:

• Zero to One: Notes on Startups, or How to Build the Future: https://www.amazon.com/Zero-One-Notes-Startups-Future/dp/0804139296

• The Hard Thing About Hard Things: Building a Business When There Are No Easy Answers―Straight Talk on the Challenges of Entrepreneurship: https://www.amazon.com/Hard-Thing-About-Things-Building/dp/0062273205

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

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