George Saunders, author of the acclaimed novel 'Lincoln in the Bardo' and the recent 'Liberation Day,' discusses the concept of 'holy befuddlement' as a remedy for rigid thinking. He dives into how reducing dogmatism can help us be less self-righteous. The conversation covers managing expectations, the impact of meditation on creativity, and the importance of moral ambiguity in storytelling. Saunders highlights that even small acts of kindness can ignite change and emphasizes the complexities of forgiveness and empathy in both life and art.
01:03:05
forum Ask episode
web_stories AI Snips
view_agenda Chapters
menu_book Books
auto_awesome Transcript
info_circle Episode notes
insights INSIGHT
Holy Befuddlement
The function of a story is to create "holy befuddlement," challenging easy answers.
This humbles the reader and reveals the inadequacy of clinging to certainty.
volunteer_activism ADVICE
Embracing Befuddlement
Embrace "holy befuddlement" to avoid facile mistakes.
True humility, not the performative kind, sharpens judgment.
insights INSIGHT
Art's Reorientation
Art's effect is reorientation, not teaching something new.
It reminds us of a deeper, more connected part of ourselves.
Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode
In 'Finding Me,' Viola Davis shares her inspiring and often tumultuous life story, from her childhood in abject poverty in Rhode Island to her rise as a renowned actress. The memoir delves into her experiences with racism, colorism, and childhood trauma, as well as her healing journey, family dynamics, and her path to finding her purpose and voice. Davis's narrative is a testament to the power of radical honesty, self-love, and the courage to overcome adversity.
Liberation Day
George Saunders
In 'Liberation Day', George Saunders presents a diverse collection of stories that delve into the complexities of human relationships, societal structures, and the dynamics of power. The titular story introduces a dystopian scenario where enslaved performers are controlled by an affluent owner, raising questions about autonomy and exploitation. Through these narratives, Saunders challenges readers to reflect on their roles within societal mechanisms of power.
Lincoln in the Bardo
Yannick Garcia Porres
George Saunders
Javier Calvo Perales
The novel is set in 1862 during the American Civil War and revolves around the death of Willie Lincoln, the 11-year-old son of President Abraham Lincoln. After Willie's death from typhoid fever, his spirit finds itself in a limbo known as the bardo, a concept borrowed from Tibetan Buddhism. Here, he encounters a diverse group of ghosts who are also trapped between the world of the living and the afterlife. The story delves into themes of grief, both personal and national, as Lincoln grapples with the loss of his son amidst the broader context of the Civil War. The novel is characterized by its unique narrative style, which includes a multitude of voices and historical quotes, and its exploration of the human experience of suffering and love[1][2][4].
New episodes come out every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for free, with 1-week early access for Wondery+ subscribers.
---
One of the great perils and problems of our age is that we sometimes become too entrenched in our views and attached to being right.
According to guest George Saunders, the antidote is something he calls “holy befuddlement.”
George Saunders is the author of eleven books, including Lincoln in the Bardo, which won the 2017 Man Booker Prize for best work of fiction in English. His most recent book, Liberation Day, is a collection of short stories that explore the ideas of power, ethics, and justice, cutting to the heart of what it means to live in community with our fellow humans.
In this episode we talk about:
How George Saunders creates “holy befuddlement” in himself and in his readers
How shaving down dogmatism can help us be, in his words, less of a “turd”
How to deal with heightened expectations we might have of ourselves
Healthy ways to enjoy praise
What it looks like to cultivate a relationship with our self, to the extent that the self exists
The importance of moral ambiguity in his work
The impact of meditating – or not meditating – on our creative work
10% Happier with Dan Harris 
