597. Transforming Work Culture: From Firefighting to Strategic Flow feat. Donald C. Kieffer

Nov 13, 2025

Ask episode

Chapters

Transcript

Episode notes

What practical advice could leaders and managers implement right now in their organizations to increase productivity and decrease friction between disparate elements of their companies? How can managers reexamine legacy processes that have remained in place simply because they were, and reimagine them for the specific challenges of today’s business environment?

Donald C. Kieffer is a lecturer at the MIT Sloan School of Management, the founder of consulting firm ShiftGear Work Design, and the author of the new book There's Got to Be a Better Way: How to Deliver Results and Get Rid of the Stuff That Gets in the Way of Real Work.

Greg and Donald discuss the concept of dynamic work design. Donald shares stories of challenges in work design across various industries, including healthcare, banking, and software. He also explains how dynamic work design focuses on understanding and improving human work by making the invisible elements of work visible, reducing inefficiencies, and promoting incremental improvements. With a bit of attention to detail and careful setup, systems and processes can be honed to better serve their businesses.

Donald points to mistaken beliefs that senior managers often hold about work processes and emphasizes the importance of regulating work to maintain flow, avoiding the political dynamics that arise from inefficiencies, and managing by observing and understanding the real work, allowing organizations to work smarter and harder.

*unSILOed Podcast is produced by University FM.*

Episode Quotes:

Injecting discovery into work

09:15: If you're firefighting to run the day-to-day business, you have no time to think about the future, to even think about the strategy or think about what's happening. So, we're much more about improvement, about incremental improvement. What we are about is discovery. So the idea is that every action that you take in business, be it at whatever level, at the strategic level or the frontline level, is based on the assumptions that activity will cause an improvement. And so we run it as an experiment and say, instead of measuring the plan, we measure: did the activity actually do what you thought? And if it did, great, let's do more. If it didn't, why not? And so we inject discovery into the whole idea of doing, of human work against the target at every level.

If you can't draw the work you can’t fix it

16:14: I have a saying I use all the time that I love, which is, if you can't draw the work, you don't understand it, and you certainly can't fix it. And it comes from... [16:46] And I think we ask leaders all the time, can you draw it? Can you show it? They can't do it. They think they do it in their head. And this is the thing—why these tools, like A3 and different problem-solving tools, work—is that when you have to write down the problem statement, or when you have to draw the work, it moves it from that pattern-matching part of your brain, where you think you know it, to the rational part of your brain, where it shows you, I'm not really sure.

Why we blame people instead of the work design the work

36:53: If you see a problem, you tend to blame the person who's nearest the problem, even though it could have been caused way far away, because most of the time there could have been something they did, they could have done to keep it from happening. But you know, if there are like 500 opportunities per problem to happen, one or two of them are gonna get through, even though they're not that person's fault. So I think it's just something very human in us, which is why we call this work design. This is not about people; this is about the design of the work that's usually been ad hoc.

On helping people do good work

57:23: People want to do good work, meaningful work. Go find the stuff that's getting in their way, even if it's stuff you've put in the way, and get out of the way. Help them. Help them with the design of work. I know it's good for business. There are stories galore in the book about how points on the board, but I'll tell you why I do it when I should be sitting on the back porch collecting Social Security and drinking beer. It's because of the look on people's faces. We can actually go to work and be productive no matter what their level is and feel like they're part of something good and doing.

Show Links:

Recommended Resources:

Guest Profile:

Guest Work:

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.