Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11)

Decisions Nobody Made, policy edition, with Dave Guarino

Sep 19, 2024

01:22:26

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In this discussion, Dave Guarino, a software engineer and former director of CalFresh, shares insights on the convoluted nature of public assistance programs like SNAP. They explore how confusing application processes alienate those in need and why user-centric design is often overlooked in policy-making. Delving into bureaucratic inefficiencies, Guarino emphasizes the necessity for better feedback loops and accountability within government agencies. The conversation also highlights innovative solutions for improving services for economically disadvantaged populations.

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Quick takeaways

The complexity of government program applications, exemplified by SNAP's 211 questions, creates significant barriers to access for those in need.

Feedback mechanisms within government programs are often inadequate, leading to a failure in addressing user experiences and improving service delivery.

Individuals can influence public policy by sharing their personal experiences with government programs, thereby highlighting inefficiencies and advocating for necessary changes.

Deep dives

The Complexity of Program Naming

The discussion highlights how the names of government programs like SNAP and food stamps illustrate complexities in public policy. Despite the official designation of SNAP as the Supplementary Nutrition Assistance Program, many people still refer to it as food stamps due to familiarity and its historical branding. The conversation explains that naming decisions can be influenced by attempts to reduce stigma, yet the effectiveness of those efforts can be hindered by public perception and existing knowledge. This reflects a broader phenomenon where policy decisions, though seemingly deliberate, may arise from rapid, sometimes mundane, discussions rather than comprehensive analysis.

Simplicity is Complex: Addressing Food Security

01:18

Empowerment Lies in Acceptance

01:55

Innovate Through Hidden Insights

01:28

Navigating Diffuse Responsibility Limits Agency

00:53

Intro

4min

Navigating Policy Complexity

18min

Navigating Economic Disparities and Essential Services

4min

Navigating Bureaucratic Decision-Making

7min

Navigating Bureaucratic Complexities

24min

Reassessing Welfare Payment Integrity

8min

Navigating Policymaking Through Public Discourse

15min

Empowering User Feedback for Better Public Services

3min

In this episode of Complex Systems, Patrick McKenzie (aka @Patio11) is joined by Dave Guarino, a software engineer and policy wonk. They explore the complexities and challenges of public programs, focusing on SNAP aka CalFresh in California, where Dave was the founding engineer and then director. They discuss how society’s complex preferences become policy, driving obviously bad UXes (like 200+ questions for an application) for structural reasons. Patrick and Dave debate structural issues within government agencies that lead to these inefficiencies, the lack of user-centric design, misaligned incentives, a “cavernous gap” in feedback loops, and surprisingly simple ways anyone can influence public policy and improve government systems.

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Full transcript available here: https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/government-software-dave-guarino/

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Links:

Dave Guarino's newsletter: https://daveguarino.substack.com/

Dan Davies episode of Complex Systems: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Mos4VE3figVXleHDqfXOH

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Twitter:

@patio11

@allafarce

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Timestamps:

(00:00) Intro

(01:03) Complexity of naming government programs

(03:45) How policy decisions are made

(07:19) Why SNAP applications are so complex

(14:17) Why no one stops overly complex applications

(18:44) Political economy of different benefit programs

(24:56) Sponsor: Check | WorkOS

(26:13) Limited visibility into user experience

(29:24) Lack of application completion rate tracking

(35:27) Starting where you are

(43:44) Challenges of modernizing legacy systems

(48:35) Broken feedback loops in government

(53:01) Tech's understanding of service design

(57:07) Issues with improper payments methodology

(1:04:45) Effective ways to influence policy

(1:09:43) Increasing agency in government agencies

(1:14:56) Getting niche policy ideas into circulation

(1:18:04) Importance of frontline knowledge and user feedback

(1:21:33) Improving government services

(1:22:06) Wrap

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Complex Systems is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Turpentine also has a social network for top founders and execs: https://www.turpentinenetwork.com/

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