The Gray Area with Sean Illing Are humans fundamentally good? (with Rutger Bregman)
Rutger Bregman, a Dutch historian and optimistic writer, discusses his new book, 'Humankind: A Hopeful History.' He argues that humans are inherently kind and examines the deeply social lives of hunter-gatherers. The conversation explores the implications of our understanding of human nature on societal structures, including education and justice. Bregman also critiques traditional systems and emphasizes the need for decentralized, egalitarian models. His views challenge prevailing notions about violence, resilience, and the potential for a better future.
01:39:50
Dual Human Nature
- Humans possess a duality of nature, capable of both immense cruelty and remarkable friendliness.
- This duality suggests that violence may not be inherent to our nature, but rather a product of specific circumstances.
Hunter-Gatherer Peacefulness
- Evidence suggests that organized group violence like war was rare among nomadic hunter-gatherers.
- The rise of violence correlates with the development of agriculture and settled societies.
Book Recommendation: Hunter-Gatherers
- Read "Affluence Without Abundance" by James Suzman to learn more about hunter-gatherer societies.
- It explores the egalitarian and cooperative nature of the Bushmen in the Kalahari Desert.
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Intro
00:00 • 2min
The Kindness Paradox
01:44 • 8min
Exploring Human Nature and Violence
10:03 • 26min
Rethinking Education and Healthcare Models
36:25 • 16min
Rethinking Human Nature and Societal Structures
52:43 • 35min
Urgency of Change in Societal Institutions and Climate Action
01:27:41 • 3min
Redefining Resilience: Hope in the Face of Adversity
01:30:21 • 4min
Exploring Human Behavior Through Recommended Reads
01:34:18 • 2min
Utopia for Realists
The Case for a Universal Basic Income, Open Borders, and a 15-hour Workweek
Rutger Bregman
In *Utopia for Realists*, Rutger Bregman argues that visionary ideas, often considered utopian, can be implemented to create a more equitable and productive society.
He advocates for a universal basic income, a shorter workweek of 15 hours, and open borders.
Bregman supports these ideas with historical examples, such as Richard Nixon's proposed basic income and the successful Mincome project in Canada, as well as current data and academic studies.
The book challenges conventional wisdom and encourages readers to dream big and strive for a better future.
Humankind
A Hopeful History
Rutger Bregman
Humankind: A Hopeful History challenges the idea that humans are inherently selfish by presenting evidence of our altruistic behavior throughout history.
The book takes a multi-disciplinary approach, drawing from history, economics, psychology, biology, anthropology, and archaeology to argue that humans are more peaceful and friendly than commonly believed.
Bregman sides with Jean-Jacques Rousseau's view of human nature in the state of nature debate, opposing Thomas Hobbes' more pessimistic outlook.
He also discusses the concept of 'domestication syndrome' and how humans may have self-domesticated, leading to a more cooperative and empathetic species.
Tattoos on the Heart
The Power of Boundless Compassion
Gregory Boyle
In 'Tattoos on the Heart', Father Gregory Boyle shares his experiences and insights from thirty years of working with gang members in Los Angeles.
The book is a collection of parables that highlight the importance of kinship, redemption, and boundless compassion.
Boyle founded Homeboy Industries, a gang-intervention, rehabilitation, and reentry program, and his stories reflect his commitment to helping young people escape gang life and find a path to self-respect and dignity.
The book emphasizes the power of unconditional love, faith, and the importance of treating all individuals with respect and kindness, regardless of their background.
Lord of the Flies
William Golding
In 'Lord of the Flies', William Golding tells the story of a group of British schoolboys who are stranded on a deserted island after their plane crashes.
The novel follows their attempts to govern themselves and the gradual descent into chaos and savagery.
The story is an allegory that explores themes of human nature, morality, leadership, and the fragility of civilization.
Key characters include Ralph, who represents order and democracy; Jack, who symbolizes power and violence; and Piggy, the voice of reason.
The novel highlights the tension between the desire for civilization and the primal savagery that lies beneath the surface of human society.
Survival of the Friendliest
Vanessa Woods
Brian Hare
In 'Survival of the Friendliest,' Brian Hare and Vanessa Woods present a compelling case that human evolution was driven not by brute strength, raw intelligence, or ruthlessness, but by a unique capacity for friendliness and cooperative communication.
The authors advance the 'self-domestication theory,' which suggests that humans evolved to be more tolerant and cooperative, traits that also make us capable of great cruelty when our in-group is threatened.
The book explores how these traits shaped human history and offers insights into how we can expand our definition of who belongs to foster a more compassionate and cooperative society.
The Lost Boys
Gina Perry
Gina Perry's book, 'The Lost Boys: Inside Muzafer Sherif's Robbers Cave Experiment', delves into the history and implications of Sherif's study.
It critiques the experiment's methodology and ethics, highlighting how Sherif's personal biases influenced the results.
The book also explores the long-term effects on the boys who participated, many of whom were unaware they were part of a psychological study until decades later.
Confidence Man
The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America
Maggie Haberman
Confidence Man is a comprehensive and detailed biography that explores Donald Trump's life, from his early days in Queens to his presidency and beyond.
The book, written by Maggie Haberman, is based on extensive interviews with hundreds of sources, including Trump himself.
It delves into the transactional relationships that shaped Trump's career, including those with significant figures like Roy Cohn, George Steinbrenner, and Rudy Giuliani.
Haberman's work provides a nuanced portrait of Trump, highlighting his complexities, contradictions, and the broader societal context that enabled his rise to power.
The book is praised for its meticulous reporting and its contribution to understanding one of the most consequential eras in American political history.
Seeing Like a State
How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed
James C. Scott
In this book, James C. Scott examines the failures of centrally managed social plans and the destructive consequences of high-modernist ideologies.
Scott argues that states often impose simplistic visions on complex societies, ignoring local, practical knowledge and leading to disastrous outcomes.
He identifies four conditions common to all planning disasters: administrative ordering of nature and society, high-modernist ideology, authoritarian state power, and a prostrate civil society.
The book critiques various utopian projects, including collective farms, compulsory villagization, and urban planning, and advocates for a more nuanced approach that respects local diversity and practical knowledge.
How to Tame a Fox (and Build a Dog)
Visionary Scientists and a Siberian Tale of Jump-Started Evolution
Lee Dugatkin
Lyudmila Trut
This book tells the story of a groundbreaking experiment where scientists, led by Dmitri Belyaev and Lyudmila Trut, domesticated silver foxes in Siberia to study the process of domestication.
The experiment, which began in 1959, aimed to replicate the evolution of wolves into dogs by selecting for tameness in foxes.
Over several decades, the foxes underwent significant physical and behavioral changes, becoming more dog-like in their behavior and appearance.
Affluence without abundance
James Suzman
In 'Affluence Without Abundance', James Suzman provides an intimate account of the Bushmen, highlighting their unique lifestyle that emphasizes minimal work, sharing, and equality.
The book explores how their way of life has been impacted by modernity and offers insights into broader questions about work, wealth, and contentment.
Suzman's work is a blend of anthropology, memoir, and storytelling, offering a nuanced view of one of the oldest continuous societies on Earth.
Primates And Philosophers How Morality Evolved
Frans de Waal
In 'Primates and Philosophers,' Frans de Waal argues that human morality is not a thin veneer over a selfish nature but rather an evolutionary development from social instincts shared with other animals.
He critiques the 'Veneer Theory' and presents evidence from primate behavior to support his view of morality as a natural part of human evolution.
Behind the Shock Machine
The Untold Story of the Notorious Milgram Psychology Experiments
Gina Perry
In 'Behind the Shock Machine', Gina Perry delves into the complexities and controversies surrounding Stanley Milgram's obedience experiments.
By examining unpublished materials and interviewing original participants, Perry challenges the popular narrative of Milgram's findings, highlighting inconsistencies and ethical concerns.
The book provides a nuanced view of the experiments and their lasting influence on psychology.
Dutch historian and De Correspondent writer Rutger Bregman got famous for the lashings he gave Tucker Carlson and the assembled plutocrats of Davos. But his work is far more utopian than polemical. The conversation we had on this show almost a year ago on his previous book Utopia for Realists is still one of my favorites.
Bregman's new book, Humankind: A Hopeful History, is even more ambitious: it's an effort to establish that human beings, human nature, is kinder, friendlier, more decent, than we are given credit for. And that a new world could be built atop that understanding.
I'm not convinced by everything in this book, to be honest. But that tension makes this conversation unusually generative. We discuss the deeply social, egalitarian lives of hunter-gatherers, whether the advent of human civilization was a huge mistake, and how our views toward religious faith have changed radically since our early 20s; and we debate whether humans have a nature at all, the implications of the Holocaust, whether we can build a society without CEOs, politicians, and bureaucrats, and more
By the end, I'm still not sure I believe there is one human nature. But, I do think that if we believed Bregman's view of our nature, rather than, say, Donald Trump's view of our nature, maybe we could build something much more beautiful.
Book recommendations:
Affluence without Abundance by James Suzman
Behind the Shock Machine by Gina Perry
The Lost Boys by Gina Perry
How to Tame a Fox (and Build a Dog) by Lee Alan Dugatkin and Lyudmila Trut
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